Suggestion

[Niuc]

Aurelio, 感謝汝分享汝學福建話的經驗. 若收着陬?憭F後通報阮知. 彼首詩的 "以欣" 是 "以此而欣賞" 的意思.

Aurelio, kam2 sia7 ly2` hun1 hiong2 ly2` o8 hok4 kian3 ue7` e5 king1 giam7. na7 siu1 tio8 hiai2 sy5 tian2` liau2 au7` thang1 po3 gun2` cai1. hit4 siu2 si1` e5 "i2 him1" si7 "i2 chy2` ji5 him1 siong2" e5 i3 sy3.

Aurelio, thanks for sharing with us your experience in learning Hokkien. After you receive those dictionaries, please update us. The words "i2 him1" in the poem means "because of this (I) admire (the birds)". "him1" also means glad/happy, hence happily admire their "virtues" and take pleasure in seeing them flying.

Cheers!

niuc

[%sig%]

[Andrew Yong]

I realised I made a mistake by writing 對 instead of 著.

There are other words where others have used different words to what I would have used.

互 for hO7, to give, instead of 予
的 for e5, possessive particle, instead of 個

[Aurelio]

Hi Andrew,

Hokkien characters are still very flexible (maybe that's going to be different, 10, 20 years down the road?) - I've seen 互, 予, 與 for the word 'h07' and 的, 個, ㄟ, 丌, 耶 and 兮 for e5. I tend to use 個 only for the measure word for months as in 後個月, 'next month' (兮 is kind of neat, because it doesn't look too bad and has no association with the individual functions of Mandarin 的 and 個, but not many people seem to use 兮).

For most of the function words there a similar dilemma, as they do not correspond 1:1 to the Mandarin equivalent - which shows nicely that Hokkien is more than a 'dialect'.

I do have a list of favorites that took me a while to figure out:

pronunc. ------ meaning ----- favorite character ---- [Mandarin pronuncitation]

a2, ia2 ------------- or ------------------- 抑 -------------------------- yi2
a2, iao2 -------- not yet ---------------- 猶 -------------------------- you2
ia2, iah8 ---------- also ----------------- 也 -------------------------- ye3
bo5 ----------------- not ----------------- 無 -------------------------- wu2
be7 --------------- not yet -------------- 未 -------------------------- wei4
m5 ------------------ not ----------------- 伓 -------------------------- bei1
bue7 ---------- to not know --------- [勿會] ------------------------ N.A.
khah4 ------------- more ---------------- 較 -------------------------- jiao4
kouh4 ------------- even ---------------- 佫 -------------------------- ho2
kap4 --------------- and ----------------- 合 -------------------------- he2
sim2mih8 --------- what --------------- 甚物 ------------------------ shen2wu4
li2, lu2, ly2 -------- you ----------------- 汝 -------------------------- ru3
i1 -------------------- he ------------------ 伊 -------------------------- yi1
gun2 ------------- we (excl.) ------------ 院 -------------------------- yuan4
cit4 ------------------ this ----------------- 此 -------------------------- ci3
hit4 ------------------ that ---------------- 彼 -------------------------- bi3
beh4 ---------------- want --------------- 慾 -------------------------- yu4
tioh8 ------------ correct, must --------- 著 -------------------------- zhu4
ti7 ------------------- in, at --------------- 在 -------------------------- zai4


I'm only putting them here as a suggestion for others that might have the same problem. Whoever know more, please comment !

Regards,
Aurelio

[%sig%]

[Niuc]

Hi Andrew & Aurelio

Many people, including Taiwanese Bible, write 互 for ho`7. Personally I think 予 is better. It's a good idea to use 兮 for e5 as it is simpler than 的. Last time we also discussed about 其 as the original character for e5. http://www.chineselanguage.org/forum/re ... reply_1345

As for tio8 (tioh8), I prefer to use 着 since 著 has many meanings. btw gun2 is usually written as 阮 (Mandarin: ruan3), 院 is i*7 in Hokkien. Some write ko4 as 閣, 擱; ber4 (beh4) as 要, 卜; li2 as 你; ti7 as 佇.

long2 cong2 攏總 = all
ke3 皆, 俱 = all
lin2 您 = you (plural)
in1 (人+因) = they

[%sig%]

[hong]

Dear niuc,
chinfa Lien and some others use 度 for 互 in chuanchiu language.Am I right?

[Niuc]

Dear Hong

Thanks for the info as I was not aware of this. Could you please tell us more on why he uses 度 for 互 ho`7? (度 = to`7)

[%sig%]

[hong]

I cannot remember which article but it is not important at all because as long as chuanchiu for give is too not hoo .See tlls.org.tw prof ang views on give .He didn't give the hanzi,it seems.

[Heruler]

黃昏群鳥

黃昏觀賞西日沉;
群鳥高飛越山林;
隨季轉遷遊千里;
殷勤活潑即以欣.

hong5 hun1 khun5 ciau2

hong5 hun1 kuan1 siong2 se1 dit8 tim5;
khun5 ciau2 ko1 hui1 uat8 san1 lim5;
sui5 kui3 cuan2 chian1 iu5 chian1 li2;
un1 khun5 ua8 phuat4 cip8 i2 him1.


Twilight Birds Flock

observe the west sunset at twilight;
birds flock flying high across mountain woods;
migrate by seasons travelling thousands of miles;
eager and vigorous, thus be admired.

Would really appreciate if any friend here can help me to translate the poem into better English. Thanks a lot!

Cheers
Niuc

[%sig%]

Hi Niuc,

As I reviewed the old postings, I came across your beautiful poem. The imagery is superb! The rhyme and rhythm are musical to my ear.

Because I was not able to read the Han-ji (whose codes turned out scrambled in my computer - you were using Big5?), I tried to reconstruct what the Han-ji version was like. I was successful up to the last 3 words. Would you please fill me in? (Below I use the traditional LMJ spelling.)

黃昏群鳥

Hông hun koan sióng se jít tîm,

Khûn niáu ko hui oát san lîm;

Sûi kùi choán chhian iû chhian lí,

Un khûn hoát phoat __ __ him.

黃昏觀賞西日沉，

群鳥高飛越山林；

隨季轉遷遊千里，

殷勤活潑____欣。

Thanks,
Heuler

[niuc]

Hi Heruler

I am really glad that you like it. Thanks for your compliment.

Yes, I used Big5, but now the Han-ji can’t be displayed properly. The poem was posted before this forum was upgraded, so may be that’s why.

The two words are 即以 (欣 is correct). The poem was written in 2001 and I assumed 即 as cip8. I just checked that this site [http://www.chinalanguage.com] has it as “chek1” (cik4?). What’s the correct pronunciation of this character? May be 即以 appears too “Mandarin-like” but I think it should be possible for Hokkien.

I noticed that you put the correct literary reading of 鳥and 活 i.e. niau2 and huat8 respectively. Thanks. Although I know them, I was [and am still] not sure whether they should have literary or colloquial pronunciation in that context. May be the general rule is that all Han-ji in poems are recited using literary pronunciation. But is this rule absolute for Hokkien? Personally I prefer colloquial pronunciation, especially those differ a lot from Mandarin & other Chinese languages; e.g. 山林 sua*1-na5 rather than san1-lim5, 性命 si*3-mia7 rather than sing3-bing7, 續 sua3 rather than siok8, etc. May be because those appear unique compared to other Chinese languages.

I came to love [some] Chinese poetry through Mandarin, particularly 唐詩 and 宋詞 that are not too long (4 lines or less than 10 lines). Later I realized that actually those classical poems sound better in Southern Chinese such as Cantonese, Hokkien and Hakka. So when I tried to write some poems, those were my model.

Could you help to polish the English translation? And do you write any poems? If yes, kindly share.

[Heruler]

Hi niuc,

Thanks for filling me in. A lovely poem you wrote. If I translate it, I am afraid I may ruin it. (The old Italian saying, Traduittore, tradittore, 'translator, traitor'.) But, I will give it a try. Just give me time.

To recite a poem, it is customary to use the literary pronunciation, but this is not an absolute requirement.

I published a nursery rhyme in 1998 in the Taiwan Church News 台灣教會公報 (the church newsletter founded by Rev. Barclay in the 19th century using LMJ). Let me share it with you here:

天青青, 河水流;
阿母仔牽我坐船頭.
船仔走, 旗仔飄;
坐船仔來去阿媽兜.
船仔停, 到枋寮;
阿媽仔歡喜啲等候.
笑瞇瞇, 佇門口;
阿媽互我一個大紅包。

Thinn chhinn-chhinn, hô chúi lâu;
A-bú--á khan góa chē chûn thâu.

Chûn-á cháu, kî-á phiau;
Chē chûn-á lâi khì a-má tau.

Chûn-á thêng, kàu Pang-Liâu;
A-má--á hoann-hí teh téng-hāu.

Chhiò bi-bi, tī mng-kháu;
A-má--á hō· góa chít-ê tōa âng-pau.

The sky is blue and blue, the river shush and shush;
Mommy takes me along for a boat ride.
The boat runs, and the flag flaps;
We go to see grandma in the countryside.
The boat stops, ho! We get to Pang Liau.
See Grandma happily waiting for us out!
Sweet smiles sweet, Grandma by the door stands.
Big red envelope big, she gently puts it in my hand.

Notes: The word for 'door' should have the diacritic sign for the 5th tone (mng5) which is not available from the current fonts. 阿媽 a-má is grandmother. The Old Norse word for grandmother is amma. 互 hō· is 'to give', and 兜 tau is 'home'.

Backgrounds: When I was a child, my mother used to take me to visit her mother who lived in the countryside. To reach there, we had to take a ferry. For a 5-year-old, this was really fun. My mother would sit beside me at the front of the boat, and I would naughtily dip my hand in the water to get the feel of a running water. Cool!

Heruler