Niuc:
Yes, tone sandhi between cĭt and cît is what I meant by opposite tones.
Your remark on the usage is very true. "yit" is not just the literary form for "cit" *but it's used in a completely different way. That points even more strongly to them being derived from different roots. Is there more than one word that could be used for "one" (or alone, single) in the older stages of the Chinese language?
Regards,
Aurelio
*like (sam, su, ngo, ...) for (sa", si, go, ...) in some expressions
Hokkien word for 'one'
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Niuc
Re: Hokkien word for 'one'
Aurelio, another word for one is ¤ ('iou' in Hokkien, 'yao1' in Mandarin) but I don't know when it was firstly used. In Mandarin it also means: "small"/"little", yet I can't recall this usage in Hokkien.
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:-)
Re: Hokkien word for 'one'
"Yit" is how "1" is pronounced among Guangdongren living west of Guangzhou all the way to Haiphong, Vietnam. "Yit" is also used east of Guangzhou among Hakka dialects, Chenzhou (Fujian) and as far north as Ningbo (Zhejiang) & Kuansan (Jiangsu) which is as far as I have documented it's pronunciation. In addition, "Yit" is also pronounced for "1" among the Chinese Mien tribal nation.
This is a random sample of how various communities pronounce "1":
Chaozhou: Jik
Hainan: Yang, Ya, Yat
Ankui, Fujian: Jii
Xiamen, Fujian: Jik
Fuzhou, Fujian: Ea
Taiwanese: Jik
Northern tip of Taiwan: Gi
Suzhou, Jiangsu: Yat
Guangzhou, Guangdong: Yat
Zhongshan, Guangdong: Yat
Yulin, Guangxi: Yat
Xian, Shaanxi: Yea
Shanghai: Yea
Changsha, Hunan: Yea
¤ ('iou' in Hokkien, 'yao1' in Mandarin) is derived from the military from Classical Chinese to distinguisned position "1" from position "7".
In the battlefield, "1" & "7" can be easily confused since they are homonyms.
In Mandarin it would be "Yi" vs. "Qi".
In Western Guangdong-hua, it would be Yit vs. Tit.
In Cantonese it would be "Yat" vs. "Chat".
In NE Guangdong Hakka it would be "Yit" vs. "Chit"
In Xiamen it would be "Jik" vs. "Chit"
In Fuzhou it would be "Ea" vs. "Chei".
#1 & #7 appear to be homonyms systematically among a random sample of the various Chinese languages. I don't believe that case to be a coinsidence. It is evidence of how various Chinese language groups are all related to one another.
This is a random sample of how various communities pronounce "1":
Chaozhou: Jik
Hainan: Yang, Ya, Yat
Ankui, Fujian: Jii
Xiamen, Fujian: Jik
Fuzhou, Fujian: Ea
Taiwanese: Jik
Northern tip of Taiwan: Gi
Suzhou, Jiangsu: Yat
Guangzhou, Guangdong: Yat
Zhongshan, Guangdong: Yat
Yulin, Guangxi: Yat
Xian, Shaanxi: Yea
Shanghai: Yea
Changsha, Hunan: Yea
¤ ('iou' in Hokkien, 'yao1' in Mandarin) is derived from the military from Classical Chinese to distinguisned position "1" from position "7".
In the battlefield, "1" & "7" can be easily confused since they are homonyms.
In Mandarin it would be "Yi" vs. "Qi".
In Western Guangdong-hua, it would be Yit vs. Tit.
In Cantonese it would be "Yat" vs. "Chat".
In NE Guangdong Hakka it would be "Yit" vs. "Chit"
In Xiamen it would be "Jik" vs. "Chit"
In Fuzhou it would be "Ea" vs. "Chei".
#1 & #7 appear to be homonyms systematically among a random sample of the various Chinese languages. I don't believe that case to be a coinsidence. It is evidence of how various Chinese language groups are all related to one another.
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:-)
Correction...My Bad
> In the battlefield, "1" & "7" can be easily confused since they are homonyms.
Should read:
In the battlefield, "1" & "7" can be easily confused since they are mistakenly heard as homonyms.
> #1 & #7 appear to be homonyms systematically among a random sample of the various Chinese languages. I don't believe that case to be a coinsidence. It is evidence of how various Chinese language groups are all related to one another.
Should read:
#1 & #7 appear to sound similar to homonyms systematically among a random sample of the various Chinese languages. I don't believe that case to be a coinsidence. It is evidence of how various Chinese language groups are all related to one another.
Recap:
The pronunciation of "1" & "7" sound like homonyms but they are NOT homonyms compared to some un-standard Mandarin dialects where "4" & "10" both are homonyms pronounced as "si".
Should read:
In the battlefield, "1" & "7" can be easily confused since they are mistakenly heard as homonyms.
> #1 & #7 appear to be homonyms systematically among a random sample of the various Chinese languages. I don't believe that case to be a coinsidence. It is evidence of how various Chinese language groups are all related to one another.
Should read:
#1 & #7 appear to sound similar to homonyms systematically among a random sample of the various Chinese languages. I don't believe that case to be a coinsidence. It is evidence of how various Chinese language groups are all related to one another.
Recap:
The pronunciation of "1" & "7" sound like homonyms but they are NOT homonyms compared to some un-standard Mandarin dialects where "4" & "10" both are homonyms pronounced as "si".
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:-)
Re: Hokkien word for 'one'
I just noticed above that other people have spelled "Jit" where I have spelled "Jik".
Unless, my ears were playing tricks are me, can a native speaker clarify the final position of your tongue when you pronounce "Ji(k/t)" for #1.
Unless, my ears were playing tricks are me, can a native speaker clarify the final position of your tongue when you pronounce "Ji(k/t)" for #1.
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Niuc
Re: Hokkien word for 'one'
, in Hokkien "1" is 'cit'. It's 'cik' in Teochew. Both Hokkien & Teochew are Minnan with similarities and differences among them. Hokkien differentiates between '-t' and '-k' endings. All '-t' & '-k' endings in Hokkien are '-k' in Teochew.Btw, I don't spell 'cit' it as 'jit' although 'c' sound here is similar to 'j' sound in Pinyin because Hokkien/Teochew has 'j' sound (as in English: "jeep") that doesn't exist in Mandarin. In Hokkien/Teochew, 'jit'/'jik' is 日 sun ->ri4 in Mandarin; 'jip' (pronunced like "jeep") is 入 "to enter" ->ru4 in Mandarin.
In Minnan, 1 'cit'/'cik' & 7 'chit'/'chik' sound more similar than in other Chinese languages. One is unaspirated (c), another is aspirated (ch). 'cit' tone is the sandhi tone of 'chit'. Another word for 1: 'it', has the same tone as 'chit'.
Regarding 1 'cit' pronunced as 'gi' in Northern tip of Taiwan, any more info about this?
From my limited info, some Taiwanese (don't know the exact places) pronounced 2 as 'gi' while most Taiwanese pronounce 2 as either 'ji' or 'di' but I never heard about 'gi' for 1.
4 is 'si' (colloquial) & 'sy'/'su' (literary)
10 is 'cap' (colloquial) & 'sip' (literary)
'y' sound here is similar to 'i' in Pinyin 'si'. 'y' sound exists in Hokkien dialects such as Cuanciu (Quanzhou), Ankhue (Anxi), Lam-ua~ (Nan-an), Tang-ua~ (Tong-an), Kimmeng (Jinmen) & also in Teochew dialects. It usually become 'i' in E-meng (Xiamen) dialect, 'u' in dialects around Ciangciu (Zhangzhou) & in Hainanese.
Examples for 'y'/'i'/'u' sounds:
你 you: 'ly' in Cuanciu/Tang-ua~/Teochew...., 'li' in E-meng, 'lu' in Ciangciu.
魚 fish: 'hy', 'hi' & 'hu' respectively
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:-)
Re: Hokkien word for 'one'
Nuic,
Thanks for the clarification.
>> 'jip' (pronunced like "jeep") is 入 "to enter" ->ru4 in Mandarin.
In Western Guangdong-hua, that would be pronunced as "yip" ("yap" in Cantonese).
>> Regarding 1 'cit' pronunced as 'gi' in Northern tip of Taiwan, any more info about this?
I happened to have assisted someone quite a while ago, and usually when I'm waiting for information I would engage in some chit chat with my customeres starting out with: "Nin shi shenme difang de ren?" So this particular person said he was from Taiwan, so I asked him if I counted "1-10" correctly in Taiwanese. He responded yes but that is not how he counted. His difang-hua counts "1-10" like this:
Gi Nung Sa Sii Go Lak Chiet Bei Gau Jahp.
I can remember him saying that only the northern most tip of Taiwan counts like that. I can't remember if he is from Keelung or from a small villiage near Keelung.
I've also heard some Taiwanese dialects say "sii (see) or shii (shee)" for "#4", "Ngou" or "Go" (just like in Japanese) for "#5", & "Bot" or "Boi" for "#8". In Taiwanese Mandarin, I've noticed that some people who use "shi" as "#4" will use "si" as "#10" which is a sound reversal of standard mainland Mandarin. Sometimes it gets confusing especially when you're dealing with numbers.
________________
Clarification: The Chinese Mien Tribal Nation is also know as the "Yao" Minority in SW China. They're also found in Thailand, Laos, & Vietnam.
Thanks for the clarification.
>> 'jip' (pronunced like "jeep") is 入 "to enter" ->ru4 in Mandarin.
In Western Guangdong-hua, that would be pronunced as "yip" ("yap" in Cantonese).
>> Regarding 1 'cit' pronunced as 'gi' in Northern tip of Taiwan, any more info about this?
I happened to have assisted someone quite a while ago, and usually when I'm waiting for information I would engage in some chit chat with my customeres starting out with: "Nin shi shenme difang de ren?" So this particular person said he was from Taiwan, so I asked him if I counted "1-10" correctly in Taiwanese. He responded yes but that is not how he counted. His difang-hua counts "1-10" like this:
Gi Nung Sa Sii Go Lak Chiet Bei Gau Jahp.
I can remember him saying that only the northern most tip of Taiwan counts like that. I can't remember if he is from Keelung or from a small villiage near Keelung.
I've also heard some Taiwanese dialects say "sii (see) or shii (shee)" for "#4", "Ngou" or "Go" (just like in Japanese) for "#5", & "Bot" or "Boi" for "#8". In Taiwanese Mandarin, I've noticed that some people who use "shi" as "#4" will use "si" as "#10" which is a sound reversal of standard mainland Mandarin. Sometimes it gets confusing especially when you're dealing with numbers.
________________
Clarification: The Chinese Mien Tribal Nation is also know as the "Yao" Minority in SW China. They're also found in Thailand, Laos, & Vietnam.
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Niuc
Re: Hokkien word for 'one'
,Thanks for your info too. It's really interesting.
Btw, could you clarify the romanization system in your posting since it's rather confusing. Is your 'g' = 'g' in Pinyin or 'g' in English "good"?
>>Gi Nung Sa Sii Go Lak Chiet Bei Gau Jahp.
I write 5 as 'go' ('g' as in English "go") and 9 as 'kau' ('k' as in English "alkaline"). 5 & 9 have different initials yet in examples above both have 'g' initial. How about 'Gi' above, 'g' Pinyin (= 'k' in "alkaline") or 'g' in "good" (= not exist in Pinyin)?
>>"Ngou" or "Go" (just like in Japanese) for "#5", & "Bot" or "Boi" for "#8".
It's because of colloquial reading & literary reading:
Number Colloquial Literary
1 (ordinal) it it
1 (cardinal) cit cit
2 (ordinal) ji / di ji / di
2 (cardinal) neng liong
3 sa* (*=nasal) sam
4 si sy / su
5 go ngo
6 lak liok
7 chit chit
8 puei pat
9 kau kiu
10 cap sip
It's true that 5 "go" in Japanese is just like "go" in Hokkien. Japanese On reading for numbers (ichi, ni, san, shi, go, roku, sichi, hachi, ku, juu) indeed share similarity with Minnan & other Southern Chinese languages.
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:-)
Re: Hokkien word for 'one'
Niuc,
>>>Thanks for your info too. It's really interesting.
I believe numbers, because of their frequent verbal usage, must have a high degree of sound stability over time. Even counting 1-10 which is independent of grammar should reveal a pattern of sound stability. When compared with other dialectic groups, numbers reveal how much or less interaction each group has had with one another over the centuries. In my humble opinion less commonly used words will have greater chances of sound deviations across the board.
Personally, I believe we can re-construct spoken Classical Chinese by identifying all the words that have the same pronuniciations from dialects especially from those places most furthest away from one another. But that is not my objective. People move throughout history and with this movement they bring their languages and blend it with the local language. That is nothing new, but what is most interesting to me is finding out what we all have in common and discovering how we are related to each other.
>>>Btw, could you clarify the romanization system in your posting since it's rather confusing. Is your 'g' = 'g' in Pinyin or 'g' in English "good"?
I'm using "g" as in good. Also, my vowels are derived from Sidney Lau's guide to Cantonese pronunciation which I find very user friendly for people with an English &/or Japanese speaking background. There will be some very rude, self-righteous/arrogant asshOles who will disagree me (I won't name any names, but I will say they are not Chinese) BUTT (no pun intended), again, that is just my very most humblest opinion.
>>Gi Nung Sa Sii Go Lak Chiet Bei Gau Jahp.
>>>I write 5 as 'go' ('g' as in English "go") and 9 as 'kau' ('k' as in English "alkaline"). 5 & 9 have different initials yet in examples above both have 'g' initial. How about 'Gi' above, 'g' Pinyin (= 'k' in "alkaline") or 'g' in "good" (= not exist in Pinyin)?
Coming from an English/Guangdong-hua perspective, I can hear the sharp distinction between "g-" & "k-", therefore, I would be able the distinguish the sounds between "Gi" vs."Ki" or "Gau" vs "Kau" (which will actually derive other meanings because of the "k-" vs. "g-".
Actually, pinyin (based on Dongbei Mandarin) does distiguish "g-" from "k-" for example, "guoyu" closely resembles "good" as opposed to "alkaline". I believe it depends on the influence of which southern Chinese dialect you are used to which makes "g-" & "k-" hard to distinguise because if I heard someone say "kuoyu", I would recognize it to be a southern influence. With the "k-", it is not pinyin but it is not wrong in pronunciation either if the other party can understand you as you are speaking. You only have problems if the other party can't understand you.
>>"Ngou" or "Go" (just like in Japanese) for "#5", & "Bot" or "Boi" for "#8".
>>>It's because of colloquial reading & literary reading:
Number Colloquial Literary
1 (ordinal) it it
1 (cardinal) cit cit
2 (ordinal) ji / di ji / di
2 (cardinal) neng liong
3 sa* (*=nasal) sam
4 si sy / su
5 go ngo
6 lak liok
7 chit chit
8 puei pat
9 kau kiu
10 cap sip
It's true that 5 "go" in Japanese is just like "go" in Hokkien. Japanese On reading for numbers (ichi, ni, san, shi, go, roku, sichi, hachi, ku, juu) indeed share similarity with Minnan & other Southern Chinese languages.
Many Guangdong-ren, for #2, pronounce it as ngii/ngei/yi. Many people do under-estimate China's influence on Japan...
>>>Thanks for your info too. It's really interesting.
I believe numbers, because of their frequent verbal usage, must have a high degree of sound stability over time. Even counting 1-10 which is independent of grammar should reveal a pattern of sound stability. When compared with other dialectic groups, numbers reveal how much or less interaction each group has had with one another over the centuries. In my humble opinion less commonly used words will have greater chances of sound deviations across the board.
Personally, I believe we can re-construct spoken Classical Chinese by identifying all the words that have the same pronuniciations from dialects especially from those places most furthest away from one another. But that is not my objective. People move throughout history and with this movement they bring their languages and blend it with the local language. That is nothing new, but what is most interesting to me is finding out what we all have in common and discovering how we are related to each other.
>>>Btw, could you clarify the romanization system in your posting since it's rather confusing. Is your 'g' = 'g' in Pinyin or 'g' in English "good"?
I'm using "g" as in good. Also, my vowels are derived from Sidney Lau's guide to Cantonese pronunciation which I find very user friendly for people with an English &/or Japanese speaking background. There will be some very rude, self-righteous/arrogant asshOles who will disagree me (I won't name any names, but I will say they are not Chinese) BUTT (no pun intended), again, that is just my very most humblest opinion.
>>Gi Nung Sa Sii Go Lak Chiet Bei Gau Jahp.
>>>I write 5 as 'go' ('g' as in English "go") and 9 as 'kau' ('k' as in English "alkaline"). 5 & 9 have different initials yet in examples above both have 'g' initial. How about 'Gi' above, 'g' Pinyin (= 'k' in "alkaline") or 'g' in "good" (= not exist in Pinyin)?
Coming from an English/Guangdong-hua perspective, I can hear the sharp distinction between "g-" & "k-", therefore, I would be able the distinguish the sounds between "Gi" vs."Ki" or "Gau" vs "Kau" (which will actually derive other meanings because of the "k-" vs. "g-".
Actually, pinyin (based on Dongbei Mandarin) does distiguish "g-" from "k-" for example, "guoyu" closely resembles "good" as opposed to "alkaline". I believe it depends on the influence of which southern Chinese dialect you are used to which makes "g-" & "k-" hard to distinguise because if I heard someone say "kuoyu", I would recognize it to be a southern influence. With the "k-", it is not pinyin but it is not wrong in pronunciation either if the other party can understand you as you are speaking. You only have problems if the other party can't understand you.
>>"Ngou" or "Go" (just like in Japanese) for "#5", & "Bot" or "Boi" for "#8".
>>>It's because of colloquial reading & literary reading:
Number Colloquial Literary
1 (ordinal) it it
1 (cardinal) cit cit
2 (ordinal) ji / di ji / di
2 (cardinal) neng liong
3 sa* (*=nasal) sam
4 si sy / su
5 go ngo
6 lak liok
7 chit chit
8 puei pat
9 kau kiu
10 cap sip
It's true that 5 "go" in Japanese is just like "go" in Hokkien. Japanese On reading for numbers (ichi, ni, san, shi, go, roku, sichi, hachi, ku, juu) indeed share similarity with Minnan & other Southern Chinese languages.
Many Guangdong-ren, for #2, pronounce it as ngii/ngei/yi. Many people do under-estimate China's influence on Japan...