I have a question about a word used for “Chinese”. This is a word used by speakers of Hokkien on the island of Penang, in Malaysia.
Of course, when referring to the various dialect groups, they use specific words indicating the dialects, but when they want to say “a Chinese person” or “Chinese language” in general, as opposed to (say) Westerners/Europeans, Malays or Indians, they use the word “tng-lang”.
So, for example, “He is a Chinese (person)” is said: “i si tng-lang”, and “he speaks Chinese” is “i e hiau kong tng-lang ua”.
This use of the word “tng-lang” occurred in one of the earlier postings, in connection with a joke about stockings.
Can someone tell me where this word comes from, and what it means? Someone once told me that it was the same word as “Tang”, as in “Tang Dynasty”, but I’ve never heard this confirmed or said anywhere else. Furthermore, when I asked in Taiwan, none of the people I spoke to seemed to know of this term, nor did they use “ang-mo(r)” - literally “red hair” - to mean Westerner/European. (So, how do Taiwanese say Westerner?)
Thanks,
Sim Lee
A word for "Chinese" in Hokkien
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ppk
Re: A word for "Chinese" in Hokkien
ur fren told u right. it means tang people. tang was 'supposed' to be the period where chinese culture and civilization was at its peak, thou personally i woud doubt it. overseas chinese tend to relate themselves to tang dynasty.
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James Campbell
Re: A word for "Chinese" in Hokkien
I'm not good at Cantonese, but that's what I beileve the Cantonese use to refer to Chinese people. Also the term is used in overseas communities to refer to Chinatown, I believe, but not too sure.
In Taiwan, never heard of this term or "ang-mo" either. Here westerners are referred to as 'a-tok-a' or 'a-toh-a', (and on occasion I've heard that preceded with 'si-', but that's a little to the rude extreme)...
In Taiwan, never heard of this term or "ang-mo" either. Here westerners are referred to as 'a-tok-a' or 'a-toh-a', (and on occasion I've heard that preceded with 'si-', but that's a little to the rude extreme)...
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Ken
Re: A word for "Chinese" in Hokkien
Hi folks,
It has been a long time.
Indeed it is true that 'tng lang' refers to 'Tang Ren'. It was during the Tang Dynasty (Golden Age of China) that Southern China was fully assimilated into the Han Chinese Culture. It was also a time when China was more unified as compared to the Han dynasty. Southern Chinese tend to refer themselves as Tang Ren because the Tang dynasty had substantial influence over Southern China as compared to the previous dynasties.
Tang Dynasty also signified an era in which the proper state entity of 'China' was better defined.
The use of 'ang mo' on Europeans is actually a very old Fujianese term used 400 years ago. Originally, 'ang mo' or 'the red haired people' refered to the Dutch who had distinct reddish/orangish(whatever u call it) hair.
During the Ming Dynasty, Europeans including the Portugese, Spanish, English and the Dutch already came to East Asia to trade. Many Chinese sea traders then were Fujianese with the Min Nan people the most influential. One very powerful Fujianese merchant is Zheng Zhilong, a Minnan native from Nan An county. He was brilliant in diplomacy and military capability. He had his personal navy and had substantial contacts with the foreigners, especially the Japanese. In fact, he was a close friend of the English advisor to the Japanese Shogun, Williams, who was shown in the 1980 Shogun series ( Please correct me if I got the Englishman's name wrong) . Using Hirado (near Nagasaki) as a base, he built a solid sea commerce empire that included Kyushu in Japan, Southeast China and parts of South East Asia, which eventually made him one of the most powerful Chinese in late Ming China. He was so powerful that the Ming Dynasty ruler, Emperor ChongZhen decided to make him the Military Governor of Fujian Province and was later promoted to Supreme Commander of the South East Region. This appointment allowed him to take care of the defence and security of South East China. Earlier, Zheng Zhilong married a Japanese woman and had two sons with her. The eldest son eventually became the great Chinese Hero, Zheng Chenggong (Koxinga), who fought the invading Manchus for 16 years and later defeated the Dutch to reclaim Taiwan. Today, Zheng Chenggong is celebrated by both the Chinese and Japanese as a folk hero.
It has been a long time.
Indeed it is true that 'tng lang' refers to 'Tang Ren'. It was during the Tang Dynasty (Golden Age of China) that Southern China was fully assimilated into the Han Chinese Culture. It was also a time when China was more unified as compared to the Han dynasty. Southern Chinese tend to refer themselves as Tang Ren because the Tang dynasty had substantial influence over Southern China as compared to the previous dynasties.
Tang Dynasty also signified an era in which the proper state entity of 'China' was better defined.
The use of 'ang mo' on Europeans is actually a very old Fujianese term used 400 years ago. Originally, 'ang mo' or 'the red haired people' refered to the Dutch who had distinct reddish/orangish(whatever u call it) hair.
During the Ming Dynasty, Europeans including the Portugese, Spanish, English and the Dutch already came to East Asia to trade. Many Chinese sea traders then were Fujianese with the Min Nan people the most influential. One very powerful Fujianese merchant is Zheng Zhilong, a Minnan native from Nan An county. He was brilliant in diplomacy and military capability. He had his personal navy and had substantial contacts with the foreigners, especially the Japanese. In fact, he was a close friend of the English advisor to the Japanese Shogun, Williams, who was shown in the 1980 Shogun series ( Please correct me if I got the Englishman's name wrong) . Using Hirado (near Nagasaki) as a base, he built a solid sea commerce empire that included Kyushu in Japan, Southeast China and parts of South East Asia, which eventually made him one of the most powerful Chinese in late Ming China. He was so powerful that the Ming Dynasty ruler, Emperor ChongZhen decided to make him the Military Governor of Fujian Province and was later promoted to Supreme Commander of the South East Region. This appointment allowed him to take care of the defence and security of South East China. Earlier, Zheng Zhilong married a Japanese woman and had two sons with her. The eldest son eventually became the great Chinese Hero, Zheng Chenggong (Koxinga), who fought the invading Manchus for 16 years and later defeated the Dutch to reclaim Taiwan. Today, Zheng Chenggong is celebrated by both the Chinese and Japanese as a folk hero.
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Sim Lee
Re: A word for "Chinese" in Hokkien
Thank you all for your responses.
James: what do 'a-tok-a' and 'a-toh-a' mean?
Ken:
>> Originally, 'ang mo' or 'the red haired people' refered to the
>> Dutch who had distinct reddish/orangish(whatever u call it) hair.
I believe you, but this is certainly a bit weird. I live in Holland, and there is a very high percentage of blond people, and quite a number of brown-haired people, but the number of red-haired people is quite low. Based only on gut-feeling, certainly lower than in Australia and England and Scotland (I think particularly the Celts have lots of freckles and red-hair).
-Sim.
James: what do 'a-tok-a' and 'a-toh-a' mean?
Ken:
>> Originally, 'ang mo' or 'the red haired people' refered to the
>> Dutch who had distinct reddish/orangish(whatever u call it) hair.
I believe you, but this is certainly a bit weird. I live in Holland, and there is a very high percentage of blond people, and quite a number of brown-haired people, but the number of red-haired people is quite low. Based only on gut-feeling, certainly lower than in Australia and England and Scotland (I think particularly the Celts have lots of freckles and red-hair).
-Sim.
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ppk
Re: A word for "Chinese" in Hokkien
i would reckon angmoh is the description for brits... a lot of them do have red hair...
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Ken
Re: A word for "Chinese" in Hokkien
Hi PPK,
Do you mean to say ang moh= brits in present day context or the historical context of the Ming Dynasty?
You may be right in present day context ( after so many years of cross ethnic-cultural interaction among Europeans). But I can assure you that the original meaning of 'ang moh' referred to the Dutch. If you happen to read any history literature on Zheng Zhilong or Zheng Chenggong, you will agree with what I say. In those days, the Chinese, especially the Fujianese tend to call the Dutch ' ang mo yi' or 'ang mo huan'. 'Yi' and 'huan' mean a 'foreign tribe'. In Mandarin, they are pronounced as 'hongmao yi' and 'hongmao fan' respectively. I suppose later on, the term 'ang mo' was conveniently used on all Europeans by the Hokkiens.
rgds,
Ken
Do you mean to say ang moh= brits in present day context or the historical context of the Ming Dynasty?
You may be right in present day context ( after so many years of cross ethnic-cultural interaction among Europeans). But I can assure you that the original meaning of 'ang moh' referred to the Dutch. If you happen to read any history literature on Zheng Zhilong or Zheng Chenggong, you will agree with what I say. In those days, the Chinese, especially the Fujianese tend to call the Dutch ' ang mo yi' or 'ang mo huan'. 'Yi' and 'huan' mean a 'foreign tribe'. In Mandarin, they are pronounced as 'hongmao yi' and 'hongmao fan' respectively. I suppose later on, the term 'ang mo' was conveniently used on all Europeans by the Hokkiens.
rgds,
Ken
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Dyl.
Re: A word for
I'm hakka, and we also say red hair /fuN11 mau33/ for foreigners, mainly of western descent.
Dyl.
Dyl.
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ppk
Re: A word for "Chinese" in Hokkien
ken,
i did not do a close research on this, thou i knew the dutch were called angmoh since i took history last time. russian were call 'laomao'(old hairy ones) in chinese, so i reckon there might be a certain colour of 'hair' for a certain group of westerners, in the days where racism was not checked.
regarding ur biblo on the zheng family, may i ask for the sources? cos i am rather doubtful zheng zhilong had a japanese wife. some taiwanese and japanese friends of mine told me this before(but without telling me the origins of their story) to prove that taiwan should belong, or at least, half belonged to japanese. i remembered the time when the last emperor of china, puyi, was in the hands of the japanese, the japanese actually gave a japanese wife to his brother hoping that they will give birth to a half-jap and they can put him on the throne.
i did not do a close research on this, thou i knew the dutch were called angmoh since i took history last time. russian were call 'laomao'(old hairy ones) in chinese, so i reckon there might be a certain colour of 'hair' for a certain group of westerners, in the days where racism was not checked.
regarding ur biblo on the zheng family, may i ask for the sources? cos i am rather doubtful zheng zhilong had a japanese wife. some taiwanese and japanese friends of mine told me this before(but without telling me the origins of their story) to prove that taiwan should belong, or at least, half belonged to japanese. i remembered the time when the last emperor of china, puyi, was in the hands of the japanese, the japanese actually gave a japanese wife to his brother hoping that they will give birth to a half-jap and they can put him on the throne.