A word for "Chinese" in Hokkien

[Ken]

Hi,

It is a official record that Zheng Zhilong, the Ming Dynasty Military Governor of Fujian married a Japanese woman, Lady Tagawa from Hirado before he was given the title by the Ming government. Lady Tagawa (In Mandarin,TianChuan-i.e surname Tagawa and Song, her name) was a daughter of a famous Japanese Physician. Hirado in Japan was a main gathering place for foreigners and was used by Zheng Zhilong as a base for his maritime career. He was very close to the Lord of Hirado as well. The life of Zheng Zhilong and his love story with Tagawa is legendary and romantic as well. I got the a book entitled 'Zheng Zhilong Da Zhuan" or "the Legend of Zheng Zhilong" when I was in Taiwan. It was written by a Taiwanese writer, Xu Wende, and was tremendously appealing and enlightening. Not too sure if u can get one in Singapore.

Anyway, their first son, Zheng Chenggong was born in 1624 in Hirado, who returned to China at the age of 7. Their second son remained in Japan forever. Lady Tagawa eventually reunited with her husband and son 14 years later as the Tokugawa govt in Japan had very strict laws on Japanese leaving the country. Sadly, this reunion lasted only a year as Tagawa was killed by the Manchus when they attacked Fujian. Zheng Zhilong also surrendered to the Manchus but this incident should not be considered as a simple act of betrayal as later historians have agreed that Zheng Zhilong's intention was to negotiate with the Manchus so that Ming dynasty could still remain in Southern China and bid for time. When he left for Beijing to meet the Manchu Emperor Shunzi, he left his wealth and military power to his son Zheng Chenggong, who could not accept his father's act of negotiation and continued to fight the Manchus while his father remained under house arrest in Beijing. Unfortunately, Zheng Zhilong's attempt failed and he was executed the year when his son recaptured Taiwan from the Dutch. That was 16 years later
In conventional textbook history, Zheng Chenggong has always been portrayed as a national hero but his father continues to be a controversial figure even today.

Although it is true that Zheng Chenggong had Japanese blood, it is not a big deal when it comes to identity. The Chinese race is afterall a amalgation and assimilaion of many ethnic groups for the past 2,000 years or so. Zheng Chenggong always called himself a Han Chinese and staunch Ming loyalist, who traced his ancestry to Fujian, Nan An county. When he captured Taiwan, he declared Taiwan belonged to the Chinese Ming Dynasty and instituted Chinese Imperial system of govt, even thoug he, like his father, had close relations with Southern Japanese traders who helped him with supplies needed for his war against the Manchus and the Dutch. The only unique thing being his mother was a beautiful and kind hearted woman from Japan.

Books on Zheng Chenggong are not difficult to find in National Library and Book Stores. They are mostly written in Chinese, though.

[Ken]

hi PPK,

The fact that Zheng Chenggong had a Japanese mother does not warrant the fact that Taiwan was half owned by Japan. Because Zheng fought for Ming China, declared himself a Chinese, insituted Chinese govt system in Taiwan and lived his life the Chinese way. The inhabitants of Taiwan are Chinese too. Taiwan was, is and will be forever part of China. There is not a single doubt about it.


rgds,
Ken

[ppk]

man, u should see how some japanese can really make use of that...

[Ken]

Hi,

The book I recommended, 'The Legend of Zheng Zhilong' was wriiten by Chen Wende and not Xu Wende as I previously claimed. Sorry for the mistake.

Anyway, despite the kind of a 'rediculous' claim made by some Japanese on Taiwan, Zheng Chenggong or Tei Seiko (in Japanese) is a folk legend in Japan. 'KokuSenya Kassen' or 'The Battles of Guo Xing Ye (Koxinga)' written by the famous writer, Chikamatsu Monzaeron during the Tokugawa period, is a great Japanese classical work that celebrates the heroic tales of Zheng Chenggong, a legendary man of military capability and scholarly virtues. A movie on him was made in China and has been shown in the past 2 years. It was also shown in Japan to mark the 30th anniversary of the normalisation of Sino-Japanese ties.

[Kobo-Daishi]

Dear all,

Most southern Chinese call themselves 唐人 (Mand: tang2 ren2, Cant: tong4 yan4; literally “Tang people”).

They call Chinatown 唐人埠 (Mand: tang2 ren2 bu4, Cant: tong4 yan4 fau6; literally “Tang port/city”). According to dictionaries, they also call Chinatown 唐人街 (Mand: tang2 ren2 jie1, Cant: tong4 yan4 gaai1; literally “Tang street”) though I’ve never actually heard anyone use it.

Many southern Chinese also call China 唐山 (Mand: tang2 shan1, Cant: tong4 saan1; literally “Tang mountain”). Recently I was talking to a woman from Taiwan and she started to sing this song in Taiwanese about how the Taiwanese originally came from “Tang Mountain”.

Incidentally, in my dialect of 台山話 (Mand: tai2 shan1 hua4, Cant: toi4 saan1 wa6) we would pronounce those words “hohng ngeehn”, “hohng ngeehn faih”, “hohng ngeehn goih”, and “hohng sohn”, respectively.

Taishan hua belongs to the 粵 (Mand: yue4, Cant: yut6) family of dialects. We call it “hwaih sohn vah” and 粵 is “ywaht”

Sorry, I don’t have the romanization for Minnan. Also, sorry for my weird romanisation of the Taishanese dialect.

Kobo-Daishi, PLLA.

[paul]

Kobo -Daishi
'唐人街' is the usual term used in the UK for Chinatown, another less often heard term is 華埠(waa6 fau6)
Paul.

[Mark]

tng-lang in BanLamOe means "Chinese person", however in Mandarin, tang-ren often refers to southerners.

[Sim Lee]

Kobo-Daishi

Re: >> Many southern Chinese also call China "Tang mountain"

Yes indeed. In Hokkien it's called "Tng-Sua~" (~ = nasalization).

-Sim.

[ppk]

i think tang ren are northerners. when northeners migrate to the south in tang-song dynasty they probably called themselves tang ren to differentiate themselves with the locals, and this tradition is passed down.

some other reasons might be bcos of the silk road, as we know the silk road flourished in the tang dynasty. when chinese traded with foreigners they called themselves tang ren and bcame a habit.

[ppk]

another one speaking without understanding... re-emphasize: all chinese dialects are first of all, chinese. in wad way are the teochews and hokkiens different from other 'chinese'? they shared the same writing, culture, spoken language, wadever. didnt all the coastal cities flourished under chinese rule thruout chinese history? or did they actually 'suffered' as Diojiulnant said? please go and read up.