www.ne.jp/asahi/radio/taiwan
http://taiwantbts.org
Hokkien / Minnan related links.
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hong
Re: Hokkien / Minnan related links.
http://ws.twl.ncku.edu.tw/hak-chia/b/bu ... gi-ian.htm
This page seems to be lost in the main page by Mr.Bu.It is a good page.
This page seems to be lost in the main page by Mr.Bu.It is a good page.
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Sim
Re: Hokkien / Minnan related links.
Hi Hong,
I know only a few basic Chinese characters, so this is the first page not in English but "in" / "about" Hokkien that I've been able to read, because of the accompanying (almost) peh-oe-ji transcription.
Some questions:
1. I suppose these are popular sayings?
2. Do the two different pronunciations of 不 (m and put), 人 (lang and jin), 有 (u and iu), 天 (thian and thiN) come from the fact that one is the colloquial and the other the literary pronunciation? If so, how does one know which one to use - context I suppose?
Thanks a lot. I'll be able to learn a huge amount from this.
Sim.
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I know only a few basic Chinese characters, so this is the first page not in English but "in" / "about" Hokkien that I've been able to read, because of the accompanying (almost) peh-oe-ji transcription.
Some questions:
1. I suppose these are popular sayings?
2. Do the two different pronunciations of 不 (m and put), 人 (lang and jin), 有 (u and iu), 天 (thian and thiN) come from the fact that one is the colloquial and the other the literary pronunciation? If so, how does one know which one to use - context I suppose?
Thanks a lot. I'll be able to learn a huge amount from this.
Sim.
[%sig%]
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hong
Re: Hokkien / Minnan related links.
Dear Sim,
The problem is we cannot be sure where are these proverbs came from.It can be taiwan's proverb/idiom unknown to three minnan cities in China or it is from china years ago.There are two books with the title Taiwan minnan proverb but it seems that is no china's edition yet.I reckon that we will finally see a china's collection of 20 small towns of minnan proverbs dict.
I think Niuc will be able to help for the question but I need at least 2000 usd to buy all minnan dict/thesis plus that 4 vol of chiang chiu -dutch dict.
The problem is we cannot be sure where are these proverbs came from.It can be taiwan's proverb/idiom unknown to three minnan cities in China or it is from china years ago.There are two books with the title Taiwan minnan proverb but it seems that is no china's edition yet.I reckon that we will finally see a china's collection of 20 small towns of minnan proverbs dict.
I think Niuc will be able to help for the question but I need at least 2000 usd to buy all minnan dict/thesis plus that 4 vol of chiang chiu -dutch dict.
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Niuc
Re: Hokkien / Minnan related links.
Dear Sim & Hong
Hong, thanks for those good links. Most of proverbs in Taiwanese Hokkien are indeed originated in Hokkien (Fujian) province and many are well known in our place too.
Sim, you are right that those are colloquial & literary pronunciations. The names "colloquial" & "literary" suggest that the former is used in daily conversation and the latter in reading literature. May be it was true hundreds of years ago but now both are inseparable, even in a casual conversation. Usually literary pronunciation is used for proper name, poem reading, technical phrases, year, etc. Taiwanese usually use literary pronunciation for telephone no, but we usually use colloquial pronunciation.
Different pronunciations also serve another purpose i.e. to differentiate meanings. E.g.: 生 si*1 (col: to give birth), sing1 (lit: life), chi*1 (col: raw).
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Hong, thanks for those good links. Most of proverbs in Taiwanese Hokkien are indeed originated in Hokkien (Fujian) province and many are well known in our place too.
Sim, you are right that those are colloquial & literary pronunciations. The names "colloquial" & "literary" suggest that the former is used in daily conversation and the latter in reading literature. May be it was true hundreds of years ago but now both are inseparable, even in a casual conversation. Usually literary pronunciation is used for proper name, poem reading, technical phrases, year, etc. Taiwanese usually use literary pronunciation for telephone no, but we usually use colloquial pronunciation.
Different pronunciations also serve another purpose i.e. to differentiate meanings. E.g.: 生 si*1 (col: to give birth), sing1 (lit: life), chi*1 (col: raw).
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Sim
Re: Hokkien / Minnan related links.
Gosh,
I'm relieved that you're still reading this forum Niuc! I was afraid it was getting very quiet lately
.
Thanks for the info, and the additional fact that these words (I mean the literary pronunciations) are now totally part of normal conversation. I think I did know that this was the case.
One area where there is a slight "rule" (but only a slight tendency, I believe) is, for example, I believe it's the case that in personal names, the literary pronunciation is more likely to be used. As in: "guat" instead of "gueh" for "moon", and "giok" instead of "gek" for "jade". Is this right? Could anyone give a short list of these equivalents for names? Could anyone give a list of common words with literary and colloquial pronunciations anyway?
I never knew about three of the common ones (不 (m and put), 人 (lang and jin), 有 (u and iu)) before reading Hong's link, so that was great. From my childhood I (sometimes!) heard a phrase "put1 hau3" (="lacking in filial piety"), where I knew that "hau3" means "filial piety". Would I be right in guessing that this "put" is 不 ?
Have a nice weekend, everyone.
Sim.
I'm relieved that you're still reading this forum Niuc! I was afraid it was getting very quiet lately
.Thanks for the info, and the additional fact that these words (I mean the literary pronunciations) are now totally part of normal conversation. I think I did know that this was the case.
One area where there is a slight "rule" (but only a slight tendency, I believe) is, for example, I believe it's the case that in personal names, the literary pronunciation is more likely to be used. As in: "guat" instead of "gueh" for "moon", and "giok" instead of "gek" for "jade". Is this right? Could anyone give a short list of these equivalents for names? Could anyone give a list of common words with literary and colloquial pronunciations anyway?
I never knew about three of the common ones (不 (m and put), 人 (lang and jin), 有 (u and iu)) before reading Hong's link, so that was great. From my childhood I (sometimes!) heard a phrase "put1 hau3" (="lacking in filial piety"), where I knew that "hau3" means "filial piety". Would I be right in guessing that this "put" is 不 ?
Have a nice weekend, everyone.
Sim.
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hong
Re: Hokkien / Minnan related links.
www1.twcat.edu.tw/webmaster/wwweng/t_edu/index2.htm has 800 proverbs ,271 saying (?)and how to pronouce chinese surname in minnan xiamen sound only.
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Niuc
Re: Hokkien / Minnan related links.
Hi Sim
I always visit this forum but these days have no new things to write about. Hopefully all our friends here are still visiting this forum & will keep sharing here.
You are right about the usage of literary pronunciation (l.p.) in personal names. Some also use colloquial pronunciation (c.p.) for names, e.g. 玉啊 "gik8/gek8 a0" (usually "giok8 a0", jade), 花啊 "hue1 a1" ("hua" flower). From what I know, in original Cuanciu & E-mng accents, particle "a" for names come after the name, not before it (as in Cantonese). How about Penang/Ciangciu?
Some other l.p. (cf c.p.) frequently used for names:
菊 'kiok4' ('kak4'/'kek4') -> chrysanthemum
水 'sui2' ('cui2') -> water
山 'san1' ('sua*1') -> mountain
木 'bok8' ('bak8') -> wood
家 'ka1' ('ke1') -> family
加 'ka1' ('ke1') -> to add
天 'thian1' ('thi*1') -> sky, heavens
蓮 'lian5' ('nai*5'/'na*5') -> lotus
Actually 不 ('m7' and 'put4'), 人 ('lang5' and 'jin5'), 有 ('u7' and 'iu2') are quite common, as in your sample 不孝 'put4 hau3'. Many people may be using both l.p. & c.p. without knowing the difference. The opposite of 'put4 hau3' is 有孝 'iu2 hau3' and both can be read as 'bo3 ha3' (無孝) and 'u7 ha3'. 'ha3' is the c.p. as 'hau3' for l.p.
'jin5' -> 夫人 'hu1 jin5' (madame), 貴人 'kui3 jin5' (benefactor), 人類 'jin5 lui7' (human beings), 人性 'jin5 sing3' (humanity)
'iu2' -> 有限 'iu2 han3' (limited) -> 有限公司 'iu2 han3 kong1 si1' (limited company)
Many words used in our daily speech are actually in both c.p. & l.p. E.g.:
明 'bing5' (clear, bright, obvious), 明白 'bing5 pik8' (understand), 明日 'mia*5 jit8' (tomorrow), 清明 'ching1 bing5'/'chi*1 mia*1'
家 'ke1' (family), 家庭 'ka1 ting5'/'ke1 ting5', 家口 'ke1 khau2', 國家 'kok4 ka1' (country)
假 'ke2' (false, fake), 'ke3' (vacation), 請假 'ching2 ka2' (apply leave, c.p. for 'ching2' is 'chia*2')
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I always visit this forum but these days have no new things to write about. Hopefully all our friends here are still visiting this forum & will keep sharing here.
You are right about the usage of literary pronunciation (l.p.) in personal names. Some also use colloquial pronunciation (c.p.) for names, e.g. 玉啊 "gik8/gek8 a0" (usually "giok8 a0", jade), 花啊 "hue1 a1" ("hua" flower). From what I know, in original Cuanciu & E-mng accents, particle "a" for names come after the name, not before it (as in Cantonese). How about Penang/Ciangciu?
Some other l.p. (cf c.p.) frequently used for names:
菊 'kiok4' ('kak4'/'kek4') -> chrysanthemum
水 'sui2' ('cui2') -> water
山 'san1' ('sua*1') -> mountain
木 'bok8' ('bak8') -> wood
家 'ka1' ('ke1') -> family
加 'ka1' ('ke1') -> to add
天 'thian1' ('thi*1') -> sky, heavens
蓮 'lian5' ('nai*5'/'na*5') -> lotus
Actually 不 ('m7' and 'put4'), 人 ('lang5' and 'jin5'), 有 ('u7' and 'iu2') are quite common, as in your sample 不孝 'put4 hau3'. Many people may be using both l.p. & c.p. without knowing the difference. The opposite of 'put4 hau3' is 有孝 'iu2 hau3' and both can be read as 'bo3 ha3' (無孝) and 'u7 ha3'. 'ha3' is the c.p. as 'hau3' for l.p.
'jin5' -> 夫人 'hu1 jin5' (madame), 貴人 'kui3 jin5' (benefactor), 人類 'jin5 lui7' (human beings), 人性 'jin5 sing3' (humanity)
'iu2' -> 有限 'iu2 han3' (limited) -> 有限公司 'iu2 han3 kong1 si1' (limited company)
Many words used in our daily speech are actually in both c.p. & l.p. E.g.:
明 'bing5' (clear, bright, obvious), 明白 'bing5 pik8' (understand), 明日 'mia*5 jit8' (tomorrow), 清明 'ching1 bing5'/'chi*1 mia*1'
家 'ke1' (family), 家庭 'ka1 ting5'/'ke1 ting5', 家口 'ke1 khau2', 國家 'kok4 ka1' (country)
假 'ke2' (false, fake), 'ke3' (vacation), 請假 'ching2 ka2' (apply leave, c.p. for 'ching2' is 'chia*2')
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