In my family, the term "tang meng" is known. It means the relationship of two men who are married to two sisters. i.e. if A and B are sisters, then A's husband and B's husband are "copper gates".
Does anyone know the origin or meaning of this term?
Thanks,
Sim.
PS. What's wrong with the forum(s)? All the old entries are marked as "new" today.
Tang Meng / Copper Gates
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Dylan Sung
Re: Tang Meng / Copper Gates
Can't answer the gates thing, but it could be that you cleared your history for the postscript.
Dyl.
Dyl.
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Niuc
Re: Tang Meng / Copper Gates
I think the meaning of 'tang mng' should be "same gate" 同門 instead of "copper gate" 銅門. Both have the same pronunciation: 'tang mng' ('tong2men2' in Mandarin).
I hardly heard about the term ('tang mng') before. Women whose husbands are brothers are 'tang sai'. I have heard many people using this term.
I think 'tang sai' is written as 同婿. 'tang' means "same", 'sai' means "son-in-law" or "husband". e.g.: 'kia~ sai' = son-in-law; 'ang sai' = husband; 'be sai' = husband of younger sister.
I hardly heard about the term ('tang mng') before. Women whose husbands are brothers are 'tang sai'. I have heard many people using this term.
I think 'tang sai' is written as 同婿. 'tang' means "same", 'sai' means "son-in-law" or "husband". e.g.: 'kia~ sai' = son-in-law; 'ang sai' = husband; 'be sai' = husband of younger sister.
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Casey
Re: Tang Meng / Copper Gates
Sorry, I am a late comer to this forum which I found only recently. I realy enjoy the discussions in this forum. From what I know "tang sai" is written as "同姒". “姒” was used to address elder sister (姐) or elder sister-in-law (嫂) in ancient China. "婿" or sai4 and "姒"or sai5 are different in intonation.
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kaiah
Re: Tang Meng / Copper Gates
Sorry, my English writing is poor. You can connect to this website to see more Taiwanese vocabulary.
http://ca.neuro.ohbi.net/taiwanese/seekscence_7.htm
連襟 同門 tang5-mng5
妯娌 同姒仔 tang5 sai7 a2
http://ca.neuro.ohbi.net/taiwanese/seekscence_7.htm
連襟 同門 tang5-mng5
妯娌 同姒仔 tang5 sai7 a2
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Casey
Re: Tang Meng / Copper Gates
I think my intonation system is different from that of Kaiah. Niuc, can you help please?
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Niuc
Re: Tang Meng / Copper Gates
Kaiah, nice to see you here! Thanks for your info. Please continue to share with us. 
Casey, thanks for your info too. The difference between your intonation system and Kaiah's is the order of tones.
According to Carstairs Douglas' Amoy dictionary 廈英大辭典, traditionally tones in Hokkien are in the following order:
[in Church Romanization / Peh-oe-ji & traditional intonation system]
1. chiuN7 piaN5 上平 (陰平 mdr: yin1ping2). e.g. 師 sai1 = lion
2. chiuN7 siaN1 上上 (陰上 mdr: yin1shang3). e.g. 虎 hoo2 = tiger
3. chiuN7 khi3 上去 (陰去 mdr: yin1qu4). e.g. 兔 thoo3 = rabbit
4. chiuN7 jip8 上入 (陰入 mdr: yin1ru4). e.g. 鴨 ah4 = duck
5. e7 piaN5 下平 (陽平 mdr: yang2ping2). e.g. 牛 gu5 = cow
6. chiuN7 siaN1 上上 (陰上 mdr: yin1shang3). -> there is no 'e7 siaN1 下上 (陽上 mdr: yang2shang3) in Hokkien, hence tone 6 = tone 2. e.g. 馬 be2 = horse
7. e7 khi3 下去 (陽去 mdr: yang2qu4). e.g. 象 chhiuN7 = elephant
8. e7 jip8 下入 (陽入 mdr: yang2ru4). e.g. 鹿 lok8 = deer
[examples are taken from http://edu.ocac.gov.tw/language/taiwanese/l1_ho.htm , audio enabled in the site]
Carstairs Douglas classified them into:
First Tone: piaN5, consists of chiuN7 piaN5 and e7 piaN5
Second Tone: siaN1, only has chiuN7 siaN1
Third Tone: khi3, consists of chiuN7 khi3 and e7 khi3
Fourth Tone: jip8, consists of chiuN7 jip8 and e7 jip8
Some people [including 廈門方言詞典 Xiamen fanyan cidian] put it this way:
1. chiuN7 piaN5 (1 in traditional order)
2. e7 piaN5 (5)
3. chiuN7 siaN1 (2 & 6)
4. chiuN7 khi3 (3)
5. e7 khi3 (7)
6. chiuN7 jip8 (4)
7. e7 jip8 (8)
Carstairs Douglas' XiaYing da cidian and Xiamen fangyan cidian do not use numeral (1,2,...) to indicate the tones. Usually numeral is used in traditional intonation system.
So, Kaiah is using traditional intonation system and you are using the other one. Unfortunately there is no authority board for standardization in Hokkien, different systems (spelling, intonation, etc) can cause confusion.
About 同姒 'tang5 sai7', thanks to both of you. Now I know its proper 'hanji'. I though that it was 同婿 'tang5 sai3' because we usually pronounce it as 'sai3' instead of 'sai7'. May be our pronunciation is not accurate or it's just a dialect variation. Hopefully someday I'll know
[%sig%]
Casey, thanks for your info too.
The difference between your intonation system and Kaiah's is the order of tones. According to Carstairs Douglas' Amoy dictionary 廈英大辭典, traditionally tones in Hokkien are in the following order:
[in Church Romanization / Peh-oe-ji & traditional intonation system]
1. chiuN7 piaN5 上平 (陰平 mdr: yin1ping2). e.g. 師 sai1 = lion
2. chiuN7 siaN1 上上 (陰上 mdr: yin1shang3). e.g. 虎 hoo2 = tiger
3. chiuN7 khi3 上去 (陰去 mdr: yin1qu4). e.g. 兔 thoo3 = rabbit
4. chiuN7 jip8 上入 (陰入 mdr: yin1ru4). e.g. 鴨 ah4 = duck
5. e7 piaN5 下平 (陽平 mdr: yang2ping2). e.g. 牛 gu5 = cow
6. chiuN7 siaN1 上上 (陰上 mdr: yin1shang3). -> there is no 'e7 siaN1 下上 (陽上 mdr: yang2shang3) in Hokkien, hence tone 6 = tone 2. e.g. 馬 be2 = horse
7. e7 khi3 下去 (陽去 mdr: yang2qu4). e.g. 象 chhiuN7 = elephant
8. e7 jip8 下入 (陽入 mdr: yang2ru4). e.g. 鹿 lok8 = deer
[examples are taken from http://edu.ocac.gov.tw/language/taiwanese/l1_ho.htm , audio enabled in the site]
Carstairs Douglas classified them into:
First Tone: piaN5, consists of chiuN7 piaN5 and e7 piaN5
Second Tone: siaN1, only has chiuN7 siaN1
Third Tone: khi3, consists of chiuN7 khi3 and e7 khi3
Fourth Tone: jip8, consists of chiuN7 jip8 and e7 jip8
Some people [including 廈門方言詞典 Xiamen fanyan cidian] put it this way:
1. chiuN7 piaN5 (1 in traditional order)
2. e7 piaN5 (5)
3. chiuN7 siaN1 (2 & 6)
4. chiuN7 khi3 (3)
5. e7 khi3 (7)
6. chiuN7 jip8 (4)
7. e7 jip8 (8)
Carstairs Douglas' XiaYing da cidian and Xiamen fangyan cidian do not use numeral (1,2,...) to indicate the tones. Usually numeral is used in traditional intonation system.
So, Kaiah is using traditional intonation system and you are using the other one. Unfortunately there is no authority board for standardization in Hokkien, different systems (spelling, intonation, etc) can cause confusion.
About 同姒 'tang5 sai7', thanks to both of you. Now I know its proper 'hanji'. I though that it was 同婿 'tang5 sai3' because we usually pronounce it as 'sai3' instead of 'sai7'. May be our pronunciation is not accurate or it's just a dialect variation. Hopefully someday I'll know
[%sig%]
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Casey
Re: Tang Meng / Copper Gates
Hi! Niuc,
Many thanks to your excellent explantion of tones with wonderful examples of names of animals. With the "animals" in mind it is much easier to remember the tone numbering sequence. Thanks again.
[%sig%]
Many thanks to your excellent explantion of tones with wonderful examples of names of animals. With the "animals" in mind it is much easier to remember the tone numbering sequence. Thanks again.
[%sig%]