Hi All
I really enjoy your discussion above and learn a lot. Thanks!
Sim, indeed you are an expert on phonology. Thanks to your explanation, I just realized that there are not only two sets of variaton i.e. '-eng' & '-ing' but three, including '-i@ng'. Now I remember that some people indeed pronounce it as '-i@ng'. I used to think that '-i@ng' is just a long '-ing'. I usually pronounce it as '-ing', or at least the '@' (schwa) is unnoticeable.
You mentioned about 'kah' (to teach) having glottal stop. From what I know, "to teach" is 'ka3' without glottal stop. There is another word with glottal stop: 'ka4'/'kah' that means "to send as a representative"/"to order someone to do something".
In our accent:
Today = 'kia*1 lit8(dit8)'; 'kin1 a2 lit8'
Now = 'tong1 kim1'; 'cit4 mai2'; 'ce2'; 'ta*1'
Tomorrow = 'mia*2 cai3'; 'mia*2 lit8'; 'bin2 a2 lit8'
Yesterday = 'ca2 hng1'; 'cang1 ....' -> 'cang1 thi*1 kng1' (yesterday morning); 'cam1 mi5' (last night)
'au7 lit0' = the day after tomorrow
'co3 lit0 a0' = the day before yesterday
Penang's 'sio cE*' = 'sa*1 ci*1'
Guandi/Guan-gong = 'kuan1 te3'/'kuan1 kong1'
close the door = 'kui*1 mng5'
'xi3huan1' in Mandarin should be 'ka4 i3' (ka yi instead of ka hi)
Andrew/Sim/Wei, what's you (plural), we (inclusive & exclusive), they, in your Penang accent?
Yisheng, I think "proof" should be 'cheng3 beng5'/'cing3 bing5' instead of 'cheng1 beng5'.
Hong, the words you mentioned i.e. 'tiong7 hu1', 'li/ji5 tong5', 'iu3 ni5 hue7'/'iu3 ni5 pan1', 'king3 chat4 kik8', 'khai1 si2' etc are used in our daily speech. Those without any formal education also know these words. But youngsters may not know all of them.
[%sig%]
Hokkien Dialect Radio
-
Sim
Re: Hokkien Dialect Radio
Hi there Hong,
>> No malay and eng word ,please.
This would be difficult, as probably Andrew and Yisheng will confirm.
Penang Hokkien is a special form which developed in Penang. If I were to try to use non-Penang Hokkien words when speaking to other Penang Hokkiens, either 1) They will not understand me, or 2) They will think I am a non-Penang Hokkien, or 3) They will wonder why I'm taking in such a funny way
.
As an example of "1", I'm told that the "proper" Hokkien word for English "but" is something like "tan si", but I don't think anyone in my huge extended family would understsand anything besides "ta pi". This includes both my English-educated and non-English-educated relatives.
On the other hand, I'm of course aware that I can't speak Penang Hokkien using these words and expect any Minnan speaker from Taiwan or Fujian (or for that matter, some from Singapore) to understand me.
>> The most important for penang and north malaysia minna is to change
>> from chang to chuan minnan if their grandfather are from chuan chew.
This would be very difficult for me, as on my father's side, my family have been in Penang since before my great-grandfather, so, I've no idea where they come from in China, and on my mother's side, the only thing I know is that her father comes from a village called "Tia* BO". (If ANYONE has any idea where that is, please let me know, but I rather doubt this, as (even Minnan-speaking) Fujian is probably dotted with tiny villages, with Hokkien names which nobody would recognize.)
[ BTW, for the readers among us who like phonetics: this maternal grandfather of mine had - for words like Penang Hokkien "tu1" (pig), "hu5" (fish); Amoy "ti1", "hi" - the back high unrounded vowel, ASCII IPA [M], which looks like an upside down (lowercase) "m", so he said "tM'", "hM".
It's a very weird/cute-sounding vowel: in a very strong (rural) Australian accent, the English [ u ] appears as [ M ], so the country town of Cooma, in standard English [ khu:m@ ], would be pronounced [ khMm@ ]. It also happens to be the vowel in the second syllable of the capital of Azerbaijan, "Baku" (which is why it's sometimes spelled Baki)! ]
Sim.
[%sig%]
>> No malay and eng word ,please.
This would be difficult, as probably Andrew and Yisheng will confirm.
Penang Hokkien is a special form which developed in Penang. If I were to try to use non-Penang Hokkien words when speaking to other Penang Hokkiens, either 1) They will not understand me, or 2) They will think I am a non-Penang Hokkien, or 3) They will wonder why I'm taking in such a funny way
. As an example of "1", I'm told that the "proper" Hokkien word for English "but" is something like "tan si", but I don't think anyone in my huge extended family would understsand anything besides "ta pi". This includes both my English-educated and non-English-educated relatives.
On the other hand, I'm of course aware that I can't speak Penang Hokkien using these words and expect any Minnan speaker from Taiwan or Fujian (or for that matter, some from Singapore) to understand me.
>> The most important for penang and north malaysia minna is to change
>> from chang to chuan minnan if their grandfather are from chuan chew.
This would be very difficult for me, as on my father's side, my family have been in Penang since before my great-grandfather, so, I've no idea where they come from in China, and on my mother's side, the only thing I know is that her father comes from a village called "Tia* BO". (If ANYONE has any idea where that is, please let me know, but I rather doubt this, as (even Minnan-speaking) Fujian is probably dotted with tiny villages, with Hokkien names which nobody would recognize.)
[ BTW, for the readers among us who like phonetics: this maternal grandfather of mine had - for words like Penang Hokkien "tu1" (pig), "hu5" (fish); Amoy "ti1", "hi" - the back high unrounded vowel, ASCII IPA [M], which looks like an upside down (lowercase) "m", so he said "tM'", "hM".
It's a very weird/cute-sounding vowel: in a very strong (rural) Australian accent, the English [ u ] appears as [ M ], so the country town of Cooma, in standard English [ khu:m@ ], would be pronounced [ khMm@ ]. It also happens to be the vowel in the second syllable of the capital of Azerbaijan, "Baku" (which is why it's sometimes spelled Baki)! ]
Sim.
[%sig%]
-
Sim
Re: Hokkien Dialect Radio
>> tionghu(husband)
>> chuzu(wife)
I use the terms "ang1" and "bO2", see http://www.chineselanguage.org/forum/re ... =361&t=361 for a little bit of discussion on this topic. The number of terms for these two concepts is quite mind boggling.
Sim.
[%sig%]
>> chuzu(wife)
I use the terms "ang1" and "bO2", see http://www.chineselanguage.org/forum/re ... =361&t=361 for a little bit of discussion on this topic. The number of terms for these two concepts is quite mind boggling.
Sim.
[%sig%]
-
Sim
Re: Hokkien Dialect Radio
Hi Andrew,
I couldn't find the context for where you asked about "xi3huan1". If this is English "happy", I say: "hua*3 hi2" or "hua*7 hi2", and I have always assumed that this was just "huan xi" reversed (I have no basis for thinking this other than that it seems plausible).
Sim.
[%sig%]
I couldn't find the context for where you asked about "xi3huan1". If this is English "happy", I say: "hua*3 hi2" or "hua*7 hi2", and I have always assumed that this was just "huan xi" reversed (I have no basis for thinking this other than that it seems plausible).
Sim.
[%sig%]
-
Andrew Yong
Re: Hokkien Dialect Radio
Sim: I think most people in Penang would understand tan-si. I have heard it used. I was thinking of xi3huan2 in the sense of Malay suka.
Niuc: We is wa2-lang5 and lan2. You is lu2-lang5 and they is i2-lang5. I have never heard the combined forms (in, goan, etc) used in Penang.
I think a sharp distinction should be drawn between Chinese-educated and English-educated Penangites if you want to talk about what words would and would not be understood or used.
andrew
Niuc: We is wa2-lang5 and lan2. You is lu2-lang5 and they is i2-lang5. I have never heard the combined forms (in, goan, etc) used in Penang.
I think a sharp distinction should be drawn between Chinese-educated and English-educated Penangites if you want to talk about what words would and would not be understood or used.
andrew
-
Sim
Re: Hokkien Dialect Radio
Hi Niuc,
Yes, for me it's really exciting to be discussing these pronunciations, and to see how people in other parts of Malaysia or in Taiwan pronounce the same words. I've always been interested in this, partly because my mother's side of the family speak a more Amoy-like form, in contrast to my father's and my own Penang pronunciation.
So from an early age, I was exposed to these differences and found them fascinating. Thanks to the internet we now meet one another here and can talk in a structured way (rather than just chats with friends, which are not recorded, and get lost and forgotten, and not expanded and deepened).
>> You mentioned about 'kah' (to teach) having glottal stop. From what I know,
>> "to teach" is 'ka3' without glottal stop. There is another word with glottal
>> stop: 'ka4'/'kah' that means "to send as a representative"/"to order someone
>> to do something".
Yes. I think I mispronounce the word for "teach". I will have to ask my parents how they say it, the next time I speak to them on the phone. I do remember once in my teens when my parents explained this other "kah" word to me, meaning "to tell/order someone to do something". I remember when they were explaining it that I had never
(consciously) heard the word used in my everyday life. And yes, it certainly did have the -h.
Below, I give the time-related words you posted in my form of Penang Hokkien. Note however that in all the syllables of each phrase, only the last syllable I give with the "citation" (non-sandhi) tone. All other syllables I try to (well, actually, *am forced to*) give the sandhi tone. This is because my knowledge of Chinese is so poor that in combinations I often don't have any idea what the beginning syllables mean separately (i.e. I only know them in that particular combination). This is a result of not being able to read characters - if you don't know the character, then it could be from a whole lot of different words with the same sound. So, as I don't know what the initial syllables are as stand-alone words, I cannot give them with their non-sandhi tones.
Time-related words:
==================
Today = 'kia*1 jit8'; 'kin7 a1 jit8'
........ I have actually always assumed that 'kia* jit'
........ was a shortened form of 'kin a jit'.
Now = 'tong7 kim1'; 'tha1 na1'
Tomorrow = 'ma1 cai3';
Yesterday = 'ca3 hui*1'; '
Yesterday morning = NO IDEA!
................... I guess I'd be forced to say:
................... 'ca3 hui*1 ca1 khi2', literally
................... 'yesterday morning'.
Last night = 'ca3 mE5'
Day after tomorrow = 'au7 jit8'
Day before yesterday = 'co1 jit4'
IMPORTANT QUESTION Niuc:
You have a 0-tone in 'au7 lit0' = the day after tomorrow and 'co3 lit0 a0' = the day before yesterday. Is this a neutral tone, and if so, could you write up something about what it sounds like and when it is used (the sandhi
rules involved)? As you can see immediately above, I use quite different tones for the word "jit" in both these phrases, and I have no understanding of neutral tone in Hokkien.
Some extras:
===========
Morning = 'ca1 khi2'
"after 12:00" = 'E3 pO1' or 'jit8 tau3'
................ I believe one of them means afternoon and the other means
................ evening, or one means early afternoon and the other means
................ late afternoon, but I could never remember which was which.
Night = 'am1 mE5' (my grandmother's more Amoy-like form: 'am1 mi5')
Next time = 'au3 pai2'
This year = 'kin7 ni' (probably the same 'kin' as in 'kin a jit'?)
Further miscellaneous responses
-------------------------------
Thanks for letting me know that Penang's 'sio cE*' = 'sa*1 ci*1'. I was wondering whether I had remembered the nasalization correctly in my maternal grandmother's (more Amoy-like) 'siu* ci*'.
Close the door = 'kham*1 mui5' (sandhi form)
................ or 'kham3 mui5' or 'kham7 mui5' (non sandhi forms)
................ (I'm still having a bit of trouble with tone 3 vs. tone 7).
................ Like Andrew, I never use any other word but "kham3" for
................ the closing of doors, although I'm remember well that my
................ more Amoy-like maternal grandparents said "kui*1 mng5"
................ for shutting the door. This sounds funny for
................ my usage, because "kuai*1" (the Penang Hokkien equivalent
................ of "kui*1") has the meaning of "imprison" or "lock up"
................ (a person), as Yisheng says in the phrase:
................ "ma2 ta5 liah8 lu2 ki1 *kuai1", although I myself would say
................ "ma1 ta5 liah8 lu2 khi1 *kuai1". The "ki"/"khi" difference
................ might have been a typing mistake on Yisheng's part, and the
................ difference in tone for the first syllable "ma" may be just that
................ he's writing non-sandhi tones, and I'm writing sandhi tones.
Gods
====
No offense meant by not using capitals for the names of gods - I still need to distinguish [ o ] from [ O ].
kuan3 kOng1 = The God of War.
............. Again, you give 'kuan1 kong1', but I assume 'kuan1'
............. is the non-sandhi tone. I was not familiar with 'kuan1 te3'.
thi*3 kOng1 = Jade Emperor
kuan3 im1 = Goddess of Mercy
........... also kuan3 im3 ma2, pu3 cO3 ma2.
tua3 pEh8 kOng1 = Local Penang God, and old man with a beard, which I
................. see labelled in Chinese characters as Hock Teik Kong
................. (traditional spelling), or [ hOk8 tek4 kOng1 ].
kau3 te3 thi@n1 = Monkey God
tu3 pak1 kai3 = Pigsy (not sure if this should be 'kai' or 'kuai')
sam3 cong3 = Tripitaka
sua3 cui*3 = Sandy
kiu1 Ong3 ia5 = Nine Emperor Gods
hO1 ia5 = Tiger God
Pronouns:
========
In each case, the first form I give is what seems to me to be the "abbreviated" form, i.e. a form used because of quick speech, which possibly doesn't correspond to a single Chinese character.
we (inclusive & exclusive) = 'lang2'; 'la1 lang5'; 'gua1 lang5'
............................ I am not aware of a distinction between
............................ inclusive and exclusive we.
you (plural) = 'luang1'; 'lu1 lang5'
they = 'iang1', 'i1 lang5'
Not surprisingly (as we both speak Penang Hokkien), these are extremely similar to the list Andrew posted in
http://www.chineselanguage.org/forum/re ... =956&t=922 .
and in
http://www.chineselanguage.org/forum/re ... =981&t=922
Cheers,
Sim.
[%sig%]
Yes, for me it's really exciting to be discussing these pronunciations, and to see how people in other parts of Malaysia or in Taiwan pronounce the same words. I've always been interested in this, partly because my mother's side of the family speak a more Amoy-like form, in contrast to my father's and my own Penang pronunciation.
So from an early age, I was exposed to these differences and found them fascinating. Thanks to the internet we now meet one another here and can talk in a structured way (rather than just chats with friends, which are not recorded, and get lost and forgotten, and not expanded and deepened).
>> You mentioned about 'kah' (to teach) having glottal stop. From what I know,
>> "to teach" is 'ka3' without glottal stop. There is another word with glottal
>> stop: 'ka4'/'kah' that means "to send as a representative"/"to order someone
>> to do something".
Yes. I think I mispronounce the word for "teach". I will have to ask my parents how they say it, the next time I speak to them on the phone. I do remember once in my teens when my parents explained this other "kah" word to me, meaning "to tell/order someone to do something". I remember when they were explaining it that I had never
(consciously) heard the word used in my everyday life. And yes, it certainly did have the -h.
Below, I give the time-related words you posted in my form of Penang Hokkien. Note however that in all the syllables of each phrase, only the last syllable I give with the "citation" (non-sandhi) tone. All other syllables I try to (well, actually, *am forced to*) give the sandhi tone. This is because my knowledge of Chinese is so poor that in combinations I often don't have any idea what the beginning syllables mean separately (i.e. I only know them in that particular combination). This is a result of not being able to read characters - if you don't know the character, then it could be from a whole lot of different words with the same sound. So, as I don't know what the initial syllables are as stand-alone words, I cannot give them with their non-sandhi tones.
Time-related words:
==================
Today = 'kia*1 jit8'; 'kin7 a1 jit8'
........ I have actually always assumed that 'kia* jit'
........ was a shortened form of 'kin a jit'.
Now = 'tong7 kim1'; 'tha1 na1'
Tomorrow = 'ma1 cai3';
Yesterday = 'ca3 hui*1'; '
Yesterday morning = NO IDEA!
................... I guess I'd be forced to say:
................... 'ca3 hui*1 ca1 khi2', literally
................... 'yesterday morning'.
Last night = 'ca3 mE5'
Day after tomorrow = 'au7 jit8'
Day before yesterday = 'co1 jit4'
IMPORTANT QUESTION Niuc:
You have a 0-tone in 'au7 lit0' = the day after tomorrow and 'co3 lit0 a0' = the day before yesterday. Is this a neutral tone, and if so, could you write up something about what it sounds like and when it is used (the sandhi
rules involved)? As you can see immediately above, I use quite different tones for the word "jit" in both these phrases, and I have no understanding of neutral tone in Hokkien.
Some extras:
===========
Morning = 'ca1 khi2'
"after 12:00" = 'E3 pO1' or 'jit8 tau3'
................ I believe one of them means afternoon and the other means
................ evening, or one means early afternoon and the other means
................ late afternoon, but I could never remember which was which.
Night = 'am1 mE5' (my grandmother's more Amoy-like form: 'am1 mi5')
Next time = 'au3 pai2'
This year = 'kin7 ni' (probably the same 'kin' as in 'kin a jit'?)
Further miscellaneous responses
-------------------------------
Thanks for letting me know that Penang's 'sio cE*' = 'sa*1 ci*1'. I was wondering whether I had remembered the nasalization correctly in my maternal grandmother's (more Amoy-like) 'siu* ci*'.
Close the door = 'kham*1 mui5' (sandhi form)
................ or 'kham3 mui5' or 'kham7 mui5' (non sandhi forms)
................ (I'm still having a bit of trouble with tone 3 vs. tone 7).
................ Like Andrew, I never use any other word but "kham3" for
................ the closing of doors, although I'm remember well that my
................ more Amoy-like maternal grandparents said "kui*1 mng5"
................ for shutting the door. This sounds funny for
................ my usage, because "kuai*1" (the Penang Hokkien equivalent
................ of "kui*1") has the meaning of "imprison" or "lock up"
................ (a person), as Yisheng says in the phrase:
................ "ma2 ta5 liah8 lu2 ki1 *kuai1", although I myself would say
................ "ma1 ta5 liah8 lu2 khi1 *kuai1". The "ki"/"khi" difference
................ might have been a typing mistake on Yisheng's part, and the
................ difference in tone for the first syllable "ma" may be just that
................ he's writing non-sandhi tones, and I'm writing sandhi tones.
Gods
====
No offense meant by not using capitals for the names of gods - I still need to distinguish [ o ] from [ O ].
kuan3 kOng1 = The God of War.
............. Again, you give 'kuan1 kong1', but I assume 'kuan1'
............. is the non-sandhi tone. I was not familiar with 'kuan1 te3'.
thi*3 kOng1 = Jade Emperor
kuan3 im1 = Goddess of Mercy
........... also kuan3 im3 ma2, pu3 cO3 ma2.
tua3 pEh8 kOng1 = Local Penang God, and old man with a beard, which I
................. see labelled in Chinese characters as Hock Teik Kong
................. (traditional spelling), or [ hOk8 tek4 kOng1 ].
kau3 te3 thi@n1 = Monkey God
tu3 pak1 kai3 = Pigsy (not sure if this should be 'kai' or 'kuai')
sam3 cong3 = Tripitaka
sua3 cui*3 = Sandy
kiu1 Ong3 ia5 = Nine Emperor Gods
hO1 ia5 = Tiger God
Pronouns:
========
In each case, the first form I give is what seems to me to be the "abbreviated" form, i.e. a form used because of quick speech, which possibly doesn't correspond to a single Chinese character.
we (inclusive & exclusive) = 'lang2'; 'la1 lang5'; 'gua1 lang5'
............................ I am not aware of a distinction between
............................ inclusive and exclusive we.
you (plural) = 'luang1'; 'lu1 lang5'
they = 'iang1', 'i1 lang5'
Not surprisingly (as we both speak Penang Hokkien), these are extremely similar to the list Andrew posted in
http://www.chineselanguage.org/forum/re ... =956&t=922 .
and in
http://www.chineselanguage.org/forum/re ... =981&t=922
Cheers,
Sim.
[%sig%]
-
yisheng
Re: Hokkien Dialect Radio
Niuc,
for proof, I say the "cheng" word with a neutral tone, not with a "going down" tone which is the 3rd or 7th one so I thought the intonation was a 1.
Sim,
yes, the khi/ki was a mistake on my part, probably didn't notice it when I was typing. Same for the tone on ma. should have been the 1st tone.
jit8 tau3 is mid-aftertoon while E3-pO1 is evening.
for we, I'm more inclined to say wa1 lang5 like Andrew or lang2 instead of gua1 lang5. I've never heard la1 lang5.
the 'j' sound or 'dz' sound in jit8or dzit8 is actually native to the chiangchiu dialect. It seems that older versions of the chuanchiu dialects had this sound but it disappeared.
yisheng
for proof, I say the "cheng" word with a neutral tone, not with a "going down" tone which is the 3rd or 7th one so I thought the intonation was a 1.
Sim,
yes, the khi/ki was a mistake on my part, probably didn't notice it when I was typing. Same for the tone on ma. should have been the 1st tone.
jit8 tau3 is mid-aftertoon while E3-pO1 is evening.
for we, I'm more inclined to say wa1 lang5 like Andrew or lang2 instead of gua1 lang5. I've never heard la1 lang5.
the 'j' sound or 'dz' sound in jit8or dzit8 is actually native to the chiangchiu dialect. It seems that older versions of the chuanchiu dialects had this sound but it disappeared.
yisheng
-
Sim
Re: Hokkien Dialect Radio
>> I've never heard la1 lang5.
Hmmm... Actually, I don't SAY this myself, but in the schoolyard in Penang, I heard all of the following variants of it: lan lang, la lang, lan nang, lang2.
I have always considered the last of these - "lang2" - to be the most informal form of "lan lang", because - you may notice - in the other plural person forms, the initial part of the singular person pronoun (from the first part of the compound) is preserved, and joined to the last part of the "pluralizer" (lang), with the l- part of the pluralizer dropped:
"lang" from "lan-lang"
"luang" from "lu-lang"
"iang" from "i-lang"
This also matches the extremely short non-Penang forms 'gun', 'lin', 'in' based on the same principle.
Otherwise, I find it difficult to explain the Penang form "lang", which I _do_ use a lot - more in fact than "wa lang".
[ Oh dear, it's only when re-reading this that I realise that I've only shifted the problem one step further, because now there's no explanation for why "lan" should have anything to do with 1st person singular! Nevertheless I'll leave what I've written unchanged, for what it's worth. ]
>> the 'j' sound or 'dz' sound in jit8or dzit8 is actually
>> native to the chiangchiu dialect. It seems that older
>> versions of the chuanchiu dialects had this sound
>> but it disappeared.
Yes, I'm quite pleased that I have it in my variant, because it makes the phonology nice and symmetrical:
... p, ph, b;
... t, th, [d];
... k, kh, g;
... c, ch, j;
(although [d] occurs only in words borrowed from Malay).
I realise that in some other forms of Hokkien this j/dz is pronounced [d], so they too have symmetry in their stops:
... p, ph, b;
... t, th, d;
... k, kh, g;
but there are no borrowed words in these forms of Hokkien to fill the missing gap:
... c, ch, [].
In other words, the presence of [d], makes my form the most symmetrical, which sort of appeals to my sense of aesthetics!
The presence of "j" in my variant enables me to distinguish "luah8" (chillie/curry hot) from "juah8" (temperature hot) which is a distinction I consistently make (do you do that too Yisheng?). My non-Penang Hokkien grandmother said "duah8" for both, and (I noticed) used the word "sio1" to also mean "temperature hot", if a clear distinction needed to be made between temperature and taste.
For example, she would say: "ai1 lim3 sio1 cui2", (I) want to drink some hot water, whereas I would say: "ai1 lim1/lim3 juah4 cui2". I think in her variety it has to be "lim3" because of tone sandhi (citation form would be "lim1"), whereas in Penang Hokkien, I would be tempted to use a non-sandhi form "lim1", although the sandhi form "lim3" doesn't sound wrong either in Penang Hokkien, in this sentence.
In Penang Hokkien, the use of "sio1" in this context would be totally incorrect, as it only means "burn", rendering the sentence odd.
BTW, there appears to be a close relationship between [ d ] and [ l ] which might not be so obvious. For example: 1) Someone saying "luah" and someone else saying "duah" for (taste) hot and not really perceiving the other to be that different. 2) The Malay word "dukun" (which I believe means a sort of faith-healer / medicine man) has been borrowed into Penang Hokkien as "lo1 kun1" to mean a (Western) doctor [ also "lo1 kun3 cu3" (hospital) ]. Note: a traditional Chinese "doctor" (who felt your pulse and sent you to a Chinese herbalist) was called a "sin3 sE*1".
Hmmm... Actually, I don't SAY this myself, but in the schoolyard in Penang, I heard all of the following variants of it: lan lang, la lang, lan nang, lang2.
I have always considered the last of these - "lang2" - to be the most informal form of "lan lang", because - you may notice - in the other plural person forms, the initial part of the singular person pronoun (from the first part of the compound) is preserved, and joined to the last part of the "pluralizer" (lang), with the l- part of the pluralizer dropped:
"lang" from "lan-lang"
"luang" from "lu-lang"
"iang" from "i-lang"
This also matches the extremely short non-Penang forms 'gun', 'lin', 'in' based on the same principle.
Otherwise, I find it difficult to explain the Penang form "lang", which I _do_ use a lot - more in fact than "wa lang".
[ Oh dear, it's only when re-reading this that I realise that I've only shifted the problem one step further, because now there's no explanation for why "lan" should have anything to do with 1st person singular! Nevertheless I'll leave what I've written unchanged, for what it's worth. ]
>> the 'j' sound or 'dz' sound in jit8or dzit8 is actually
>> native to the chiangchiu dialect. It seems that older
>> versions of the chuanchiu dialects had this sound
>> but it disappeared.
Yes, I'm quite pleased that I have it in my variant, because it makes the phonology nice and symmetrical:
... p, ph, b;
... t, th, [d];
... k, kh, g;
... c, ch, j;
(although [d] occurs only in words borrowed from Malay).
I realise that in some other forms of Hokkien this j/dz is pronounced [d], so they too have symmetry in their stops:
... p, ph, b;
... t, th, d;
... k, kh, g;
but there are no borrowed words in these forms of Hokkien to fill the missing gap:
... c, ch, [].
In other words, the presence of [d], makes my form the most symmetrical, which sort of appeals to my sense of aesthetics!
The presence of "j" in my variant enables me to distinguish "luah8" (chillie/curry hot) from "juah8" (temperature hot) which is a distinction I consistently make (do you do that too Yisheng?). My non-Penang Hokkien grandmother said "duah8" for both, and (I noticed) used the word "sio1" to also mean "temperature hot", if a clear distinction needed to be made between temperature and taste.
For example, she would say: "ai1 lim3 sio1 cui2", (I) want to drink some hot water, whereas I would say: "ai1 lim1/lim3 juah4 cui2". I think in her variety it has to be "lim3" because of tone sandhi (citation form would be "lim1"), whereas in Penang Hokkien, I would be tempted to use a non-sandhi form "lim1", although the sandhi form "lim3" doesn't sound wrong either in Penang Hokkien, in this sentence.
In Penang Hokkien, the use of "sio1" in this context would be totally incorrect, as it only means "burn", rendering the sentence odd.
BTW, there appears to be a close relationship between [ d ] and [ l ] which might not be so obvious. For example: 1) Someone saying "luah" and someone else saying "duah" for (taste) hot and not really perceiving the other to be that different. 2) The Malay word "dukun" (which I believe means a sort of faith-healer / medicine man) has been borrowed into Penang Hokkien as "lo1 kun1" to mean a (Western) doctor [ also "lo1 kun3 cu3" (hospital) ]. Note: a traditional Chinese "doctor" (who felt your pulse and sent you to a Chinese herbalist) was called a "sin3 sE*1".
-
Niuc
Re: Hokkien Dialect Radio
Hi Andrew & Yisheng & Sim,
Thanks for your info about plural pronouns. Penang's 'wa lang', 'lu lang' sound a bit like Teochew for me. We also have '....+ lang5' but in forms of 'gun2 lang5', 'lan2 lang5', 'lin2 lang5' & 'in1 lang5'.
Hi Sim,
Thanks for sharing your knowledge on phonology with us. The reversed 'm' sound (I use to write it as 'y' as in 'hy5' -> fish) is also found in our accent and I like this sound very much. I used to think that only Chinese languages (Mandarin & certain Hokkien accents) have this sound. Thanks to you, now I know that actually it also exists in other languages.
About those "literary" words such as 'tiong7 hu1' etc, I may give a wrong impression that we use those words every day. Actually I meant to say that almost every Hokkien in my hometown know those words and sometimes we use them in a more polite way. Usually we also use 'ang1' for husband and 'bo`2' for wife. Most will know 'tiong7 hu1' but only some 'cu7 hu7' as 'thai3 thai3' & 'hu1 din5' are more common. More on this is in the thread you referred to.
About 'l'/'d'/'j', I find them very interesting too. In our 'Tang5 ua*1' (Mdr: Tong2an1) accent, most of us don't have 'j' but some do. Many pronounce it as a sound between 'l' and 'd' and mix the original 'l' and 'j'. Personally I pronounce them as 'l' and 'd' respectively. I can differentiate them, may be because I also know Mandarin. It's true that for many of us, 'lua8' (chilli's hot) and 'dua8'/'jua8' (weather's hot) sounds alike. I also hope that this set of sounds ('l'/'d'/'j') will be preserved. Personally I think, if possible to have a "standard" Hokkien accent, I would like to propose to retain original sound of 'l' & 'j' (roughly corresponding with Mandarin Pinyin 'l' & 'r'). We can assign 'd' sound for those now 'l' in Hokkien and 'n' in Mandarin e.g. 'lam5' ->"male", "south". But after a second thought, it seems not a good idea.
Actually I also prefer to write tones in sandhi form because it's easier to read. But sandhi in different Hokkien accents are not all alike. E.g. the sandhi form of 'si5 kan1' (time) is 'si3 kan1' in our accent and 'si7 kan1' in E-mng & Taiwan.
Yeah, '0' indicates neutral tone. I don't know about its rule but it's usually found in the end of a phrase/sentence. The sound before neutral tone retains its basic/citation tone. Our neutral tone sounds between '4' and '2' tones, light/unstressed and short. From what I know, Penang/Medan people will say 'gia8 lai5' [bring it here] as 'gia4 lai5' and we 'gia8 lai0'.
Yeah, 'kia*1 jit8' seems to be a short form of 'kin1 a2 jit8'. 'tha1 na1' is special, I have never heard it. 'ca3 hui*1 ca1 khi2' is acceptable in our accent with 'hng1' for 'hui*1'. 'ca2 khi2' also means morning for us, 'thi*1 kng1' (literally "sky light") means daytime especially morning. 'dit8 tau3' for us is noon time (around 11am - 1 or 2 pm), 'ting2 tau3' (rarely used) means before 12pm (around 10am onward), 'e7 tau3' (frequently used) means after 12pm (until around 3pm), 'e7 po`1' is from 3pm until 6pm. Douglas' has 'ting2 po`1' for forenoon but rarely heard. Your 'co1 jit4' has different tone for 'jit', may be because it's a short form of 'co jit a'. Next time can be 'au7 pai2' or 'e7 pai2'. This year for us is also 'kin1 ni5', indeed 今 'kin1' is the same as in 'kin1 a2 jit8'.
For my ears, 'kham3 mng5' sounds unnatural and seems to have a different meaning from 'kui*1 mng5'. It seems like "close the door but may not really closed", like Malay kind of door i.e. with curtain. Another word: 'kha8' is to shut the door but least "tight" than 'kui*'. For us, 'kui*' is also used as "to lock somebody up".
I don't use '0' as in 'ho`'[tiger] since I used it for neutral tone. I don't write 'kong' as 'ko`ng' because all 'o' before 'ng' are 'o`'. I also don't use '*' for 'ni5' [year] because all vowels after 'n','m','ng' are nasal.
I think 'pu' in 'pu3 cO3 ma2' ('kuan1 im1') should be 'put8' (Buddha) instead. 'tua7 pe4 kong1' is not only found in Penang but in every chinatown in Southeast Asia, also known as 'hok4 tik4 cing3 sin5'． I used to think that only we say 'kau5 te5/7 tian1', insterestingly you also know it as 'kau3 te3 thi@n1'. I don't know what is 'te5'/'te7' in the name. You are correct that it's 'ty1 pak4 kai3'. 'sua3 cui*3' is 'sua1 cing1' in our accent.
We also use 'lo2 kun1' for western doctor but we know that 'i1 sing1' will be more appropriate. "sin3 sE*1" is 'sian1 si*1' in our accent, used for "Chinese doctor" and teacher. Do you use "sin3 sE*1" for teacher? It sounds really similar to Japanese for teacher 'sinsei'. Interestingly, Laozi/Lao-tze in Taoism is titled 'tai4 shang4 lao3 jun1' in Mandarin, 'thai3 siong7 li2 lo2 kun1' in our Hokkien. 'li2' is his surname, notice that 'lo2 kun1' sounds exactly the same as the one we use for doctor.
[%sig%]
Thanks for your info about plural pronouns. Penang's 'wa lang', 'lu lang' sound a bit like Teochew for me. We also have '....+ lang5' but in forms of 'gun2 lang5', 'lan2 lang5', 'lin2 lang5' & 'in1 lang5'.
Hi Sim,
Thanks for sharing your knowledge on phonology with us. The reversed 'm' sound (I use to write it as 'y' as in 'hy5' -> fish) is also found in our accent and I like this sound very much. I used to think that only Chinese languages (Mandarin & certain Hokkien accents) have this sound. Thanks to you, now I know that actually it also exists in other languages.
About those "literary" words such as 'tiong7 hu1' etc, I may give a wrong impression that we use those words every day. Actually I meant to say that almost every Hokkien in my hometown know those words and sometimes we use them in a more polite way. Usually we also use 'ang1' for husband and 'bo`2' for wife. Most will know 'tiong7 hu1' but only some 'cu7 hu7' as 'thai3 thai3' & 'hu1 din5' are more common. More on this is in the thread you referred to.
About 'l'/'d'/'j', I find them very interesting too. In our 'Tang5 ua*1' (Mdr: Tong2an1) accent, most of us don't have 'j' but some do. Many pronounce it as a sound between 'l' and 'd' and mix the original 'l' and 'j'. Personally I pronounce them as 'l' and 'd' respectively. I can differentiate them, may be because I also know Mandarin. It's true that for many of us, 'lua8' (chilli's hot) and 'dua8'/'jua8' (weather's hot) sounds alike. I also hope that this set of sounds ('l'/'d'/'j') will be preserved. Personally I think, if possible to have a "standard" Hokkien accent, I would like to propose to retain original sound of 'l' & 'j' (roughly corresponding with Mandarin Pinyin 'l' & 'r'). We can assign 'd' sound for those now 'l' in Hokkien and 'n' in Mandarin e.g. 'lam5' ->"male", "south". But after a second thought, it seems not a good idea.
Actually I also prefer to write tones in sandhi form because it's easier to read. But sandhi in different Hokkien accents are not all alike. E.g. the sandhi form of 'si5 kan1' (time) is 'si3 kan1' in our accent and 'si7 kan1' in E-mng & Taiwan.
Yeah, '0' indicates neutral tone. I don't know about its rule but it's usually found in the end of a phrase/sentence. The sound before neutral tone retains its basic/citation tone. Our neutral tone sounds between '4' and '2' tones, light/unstressed and short. From what I know, Penang/Medan people will say 'gia8 lai5' [bring it here] as 'gia4 lai5' and we 'gia8 lai0'.
Yeah, 'kia*1 jit8' seems to be a short form of 'kin1 a2 jit8'. 'tha1 na1' is special, I have never heard it. 'ca3 hui*1 ca1 khi2' is acceptable in our accent with 'hng1' for 'hui*1'. 'ca2 khi2' also means morning for us, 'thi*1 kng1' (literally "sky light") means daytime especially morning. 'dit8 tau3' for us is noon time (around 11am - 1 or 2 pm), 'ting2 tau3' (rarely used) means before 12pm (around 10am onward), 'e7 tau3' (frequently used) means after 12pm (until around 3pm), 'e7 po`1' is from 3pm until 6pm. Douglas' has 'ting2 po`1' for forenoon but rarely heard. Your 'co1 jit4' has different tone for 'jit', may be because it's a short form of 'co jit a'. Next time can be 'au7 pai2' or 'e7 pai2'. This year for us is also 'kin1 ni5', indeed 今 'kin1' is the same as in 'kin1 a2 jit8'.
For my ears, 'kham3 mng5' sounds unnatural and seems to have a different meaning from 'kui*1 mng5'. It seems like "close the door but may not really closed", like Malay kind of door i.e. with curtain. Another word: 'kha8' is to shut the door but least "tight" than 'kui*'. For us, 'kui*' is also used as "to lock somebody up".
I don't use '0' as in 'ho`'[tiger] since I used it for neutral tone. I don't write 'kong' as 'ko`ng' because all 'o' before 'ng' are 'o`'. I also don't use '*' for 'ni5' [year] because all vowels after 'n','m','ng' are nasal.
I think 'pu' in 'pu3 cO3 ma2' ('kuan1 im1') should be 'put8' (Buddha) instead. 'tua7 pe4 kong1' is not only found in Penang but in every chinatown in Southeast Asia, also known as 'hok4 tik4 cing3 sin5'． I used to think that only we say 'kau5 te5/7 tian1', insterestingly you also know it as 'kau3 te3 thi@n1'. I don't know what is 'te5'/'te7' in the name. You are correct that it's 'ty1 pak4 kai3'. 'sua3 cui*3' is 'sua1 cing1' in our accent.
We also use 'lo2 kun1' for western doctor but we know that 'i1 sing1' will be more appropriate. "sin3 sE*1" is 'sian1 si*1' in our accent, used for "Chinese doctor" and teacher. Do you use "sin3 sE*1" for teacher? It sounds really similar to Japanese for teacher 'sinsei'. Interestingly, Laozi/Lao-tze in Taoism is titled 'tai4 shang4 lao3 jun1' in Mandarin, 'thai3 siong7 li2 lo2 kun1' in our Hokkien. 'li2' is his surname, notice that 'lo2 kun1' sounds exactly the same as the one we use for doctor.
[%sig%]
-
Casey
Re: Hokkien Dialect Radio
The name "kau5 te5 tian1", the monkey god, is a twisted form of "kao5 ce5 thian1" (猴齐天), because the monkey god was given the title of "ce5 thian1 tai7 sing3" (齐天大圣 meaning "the great saint as high as the heaven") by the emperor of heaven in the story of "se1 iu5 ki3" ("Journey to the West", 西游记).