Casey, thanks for your help. Sorry for my typo, actually it should be 'kau5 te5 thian1', i.e. 'thian1' instead of 'tian1'. I heard of this explanation in our hometown too i.e. 'te5' is derived from 'ce5'. It's interesting to notice how the twisted version spreading.
All friends here: do you usually say 'te5' or 'ce5' in this context?
[%sig%]
Hokkien Dialect Radio
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kaiah
Re: Hokkien Dialect Radio
I say "kau5 ce5 thian1" for monkey god, and never heard of "kau5 te5 thian1".
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One "giat8 khiat4 a2 ue7"(孽恝仔話, maybe means "interesting words"):
三藏取經--著猴 (sam1 cong7 chu2 king1 -- tioh8 kau5)
It means that Kau5-Ce5-Thian1 is a must one for helping Sam1-Cong7 to go on a pilgrimage for Buddhist scriptures."tioh8 kau5" above is a pun.
Besides, "tioh8 kau5" implies being spellbound or unhealthy growth.(中邪或發育不良)
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>Niuc wrote:
>tua7 pe4 kong1' is not only found in Penang but in every chinatown in Southeast Asia, also known as 'hok4 >tik4 cing3 sin5'．
We say "thou2 ti7 kong1 (cou2)"(土地公(祖)).
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One "giat8 khiat4 a2 ue7"(孽恝仔話, maybe means "interesting words"):
三藏取經--著猴 (sam1 cong7 chu2 king1 -- tioh8 kau5)
It means that Kau5-Ce5-Thian1 is a must one for helping Sam1-Cong7 to go on a pilgrimage for Buddhist scriptures."tioh8 kau5" above is a pun.
Besides, "tioh8 kau5" implies being spellbound or unhealthy growth.(中邪或發育不良)
----------------------------
>Niuc wrote:
>tua7 pe4 kong1' is not only found in Penang but in every chinatown in Southeast Asia, also known as 'hok4 >tik4 cing3 sin5'．
We say "thou2 ti7 kong1 (cou2)"(土地公(祖)).
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kaiah
Re: Hokkien Dialect Radio
I think of one proverb saying: "仙拚仙，拚死猴齊天"(sian1 pia*3 sian1, pia*3 si2 kau5 ce5 thian1). It means two(or more) celestials fight each other all out , even though Kau5-Ce5-Thian1 is so powerful, he would be exhausted.
Taiwan's mass media sometimes use this proverb to describe the destruction to both sides resulting from election conflict between political parties.
Taiwan's mass media sometimes use this proverb to describe the destruction to both sides resulting from election conflict between political parties.
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yisheng
Re: Hokkien Dialect Radio
I use te5.
Anyway, to add on what I had previously said about Penang Hokkien, it seems that for the 8th tone or the yang2 ru4 sheng1 in mandarin, people in Penang say it with a "high with a little going down" tone as in 4 or 43 unlike the chiangchiu dialect which has the 8th tone in "down then up" as in 13.
I find that people in southern malaysia and singapore speak the same way too. Wonder where the influence came about? Possibly malay?
yisheng
Anyway, to add on what I had previously said about Penang Hokkien, it seems that for the 8th tone or the yang2 ru4 sheng1 in mandarin, people in Penang say it with a "high with a little going down" tone as in 4 or 43 unlike the chiangchiu dialect which has the 8th tone in "down then up" as in 13.
I find that people in southern malaysia and singapore speak the same way too. Wonder where the influence came about? Possibly malay?
yisheng
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Sim
Re: Hokkien Dialect Radio
Niuc,
>> The reversed 'm' sound (I use to write it as 'y' as in 'hy5' -> fish)
>> is also found in our accent and I like this sound very much.
Thanks for clearing up a small mystery for me. I've seen this 'y' written in a couple of postings, and used to think that it was the front closed rounded vowel, like German ü or French u. I found it slightly strange that people were saying that Hokkien had this sound, but accepted it. Now I think that they always meant the upside-down "m".
>> Penang/Medan people will say 'gia8 lai5' [bring it here]
>> as 'gia4 lai5' and we [ non-Penang as ] 'gia8 lai0'.
Hmmm... To be honest, I think I say "gia5 lai5" (with sandhi). That's of course if that's the whole sentence: "gia5 lai5!" = "bring it here!". If I were saying "bring it (and give it) to me", then I would say: "gia5 lai3 hO3 wa2".
>> 'thi*1 kng1' (literally "sky light") means daytime especially morning.
Great to be reminded of this term. I use it to mean morning *solely* in the phrase "am1 me5 kau1 thi*1 kui*1" (from night to (the following) morning), like if I were to say: "he worked / it rained etc all night".
>> I don't use '0' as in 'ho`'[tiger] since I used it for neutral tone.
Well, it doesn't show up very well on the font used here, but 0 and O can be quite different looking in some fonts (the zero is much fatter). Nevertheless, I take your point. I personally need it for Penang Hokkien because there is an e/E distinction which sort of parallels the o/O distinction. "be2" (buy) vs. "bE2" (horse) [ it corresponds, I believe to Amoy "bue2" (buy) vs. "be2" (horse). ]
>> I don't write 'kong' as 'ko`ng' because all 'o' before 'ng' are 'o`'.
Fair enough
.
>> I also don't use '*' for 'ni5' [year] because all vowels after 'n','m','ng' are nasal.
No, neither do I. To be honest actually, I don't write it because I think that all my vowels after n, m, ng are not very nasal / not pronounced nasal at all (well, no more than an English speaker nasalizes "meet" or "not" (i.e. very slightly because it's inevitable anyway).
>> I think 'pu' in 'pu3 cO3 ma2' ('kuan1 im1') should be 'put8' (Buddha) instead.
Thank you for this. Useful for me to know the meaning of that first syllable.
>> Do you use "sin3 sE*1" for teacher?
Yes, also. It's certainly the most normal word for "a teacher in a primary or high-school". It's probably also the correct word for "Mr." as a term of address "li1 sin3 sE*1" (Mr. Lee), but most of my relatives only speak Penang Hokkien in the home setting, so if we needed to say "Mr." we would probably borrow the word from English and say "mis1-t@1 li2".
Casey:
>> The name "kau5 te5 tian1", the monkey god, is a twisted form of "kao5 ce5 thian1" (猴齐天)
Good to know this. Until now, I'd assumed that it meant "Monkey Earth Heaven" !!!
Yisheng:
>> I use te5.
Nice to see that two Penangites use the same pronunciation. However (and this could be my bad pronunciation), my sandhi form is definitely te3/te7, not te5. Curious.
All:
Here are a couple more gods I forgot:
peh8 siEn1 = The Eight Immortals.
cap4 peh8 lo3 han3 = The Eighteen Lohans (Arhats?).
su3 mO3 kOng1 = another name for the Monkey God.
BTW, in an earlier posting, I said:
>> kau3 te3 thi@n1 = Monkey God
I made a mistake with my transcription here. I say "thiEn1", like "siEn", not "thi@n".
This thread has REALLY drifted from Hokkien Dialect Radio!!!
Cheers, and have a nice weekend everyone,
Sim.
[%sig%]
>> The reversed 'm' sound (I use to write it as 'y' as in 'hy5' -> fish)
>> is also found in our accent and I like this sound very much.
Thanks for clearing up a small mystery for me. I've seen this 'y' written in a couple of postings, and used to think that it was the front closed rounded vowel, like German ü or French u. I found it slightly strange that people were saying that Hokkien had this sound, but accepted it. Now I think that they always meant the upside-down "m".
>> Penang/Medan people will say 'gia8 lai5' [bring it here]
>> as 'gia4 lai5' and we [ non-Penang as ] 'gia8 lai0'.
Hmmm... To be honest, I think I say "gia5 lai5" (with sandhi). That's of course if that's the whole sentence: "gia5 lai5!" = "bring it here!". If I were saying "bring it (and give it) to me", then I would say: "gia5 lai3 hO3 wa2".
>> 'thi*1 kng1' (literally "sky light") means daytime especially morning.
Great to be reminded of this term. I use it to mean morning *solely* in the phrase "am1 me5 kau1 thi*1 kui*1" (from night to (the following) morning), like if I were to say: "he worked / it rained etc all night".
>> I don't use '0' as in 'ho`'[tiger] since I used it for neutral tone.
Well, it doesn't show up very well on the font used here, but 0 and O can be quite different looking in some fonts (the zero is much fatter). Nevertheless, I take your point. I personally need it for Penang Hokkien because there is an e/E distinction which sort of parallels the o/O distinction. "be2" (buy) vs. "bE2" (horse) [ it corresponds, I believe to Amoy "bue2" (buy) vs. "be2" (horse). ]
>> I don't write 'kong' as 'ko`ng' because all 'o' before 'ng' are 'o`'.
Fair enough
.>> I also don't use '*' for 'ni5' [year] because all vowels after 'n','m','ng' are nasal.
No, neither do I. To be honest actually, I don't write it because I think that all my vowels after n, m, ng are not very nasal / not pronounced nasal at all (well, no more than an English speaker nasalizes "meet" or "not" (i.e. very slightly because it's inevitable anyway).
>> I think 'pu' in 'pu3 cO3 ma2' ('kuan1 im1') should be 'put8' (Buddha) instead.
Thank you for this. Useful for me to know the meaning of that first syllable.
>> Do you use "sin3 sE*1" for teacher?
Yes, also. It's certainly the most normal word for "a teacher in a primary or high-school". It's probably also the correct word for "Mr." as a term of address "li1 sin3 sE*1" (Mr. Lee), but most of my relatives only speak Penang Hokkien in the home setting, so if we needed to say "Mr." we would probably borrow the word from English and say "mis1-t@1 li2".
Casey:
>> The name "kau5 te5 tian1", the monkey god, is a twisted form of "kao5 ce5 thian1" (猴齐天)
Good to know this. Until now, I'd assumed that it meant "Monkey Earth Heaven" !!!
Yisheng:
>> I use te5.
Nice to see that two Penangites use the same pronunciation
. However (and this could be my bad pronunciation), my sandhi form is definitely te3/te7, not te5. Curious.All:
Here are a couple more gods I forgot:
peh8 siEn1 = The Eight Immortals.
cap4 peh8 lo3 han3 = The Eighteen Lohans (Arhats?).
su3 mO3 kOng1 = another name for the Monkey God.
BTW, in an earlier posting, I said:
>> kau3 te3 thi@n1 = Monkey God
I made a mistake with my transcription here. I say "thiEn1", like "siEn", not "thi@n".
This thread has REALLY drifted from Hokkien Dialect Radio!!!
Cheers, and have a nice weekend everyone,
Sim.
[%sig%]
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Niuc
Re: Hokkien Dialect Radio
Kaiah:
Thanks for the info. The pun is very interesting. Yet when I read it, I thought of 隨猴 'te3 kau5' instead of 著猴 'tioh8 kau5'.
The proverb is very true. Thanks. From what I observe, although some say that 土地公 'tho`2 te7 kong1' is 大伯公 'tua7 pe4 kong1', many Indonesian Chinese have both in their houses. The latter is on the altar and the former under it.
Yisheng:
Thanks for the info. BTW how do you get 4, 43, 13? Some also write tones like that. Are they like music notation (43 = fa mi)? I don't think the influence came from Malay as Malay is not a tonal language. Different pitch for tones, i.e. one tone number yet sounds differently, should be common to different dialects/accents. In our accent, the 8th tone 陽入 is very similar to 4th tone 去聲 in Mandarin. E.g.: 舌 'ci8' (tongue), 折 'ci8' (broken) are pronounced like 'ji4' [寄, 記] in Mandarin.
Sim:
About the reversed 'm' sound, Douglas' dictionary also mentions that it "is nearly German ü or French u, but not quite the same..". May be some people think they are the same sound, which may be a bit similar but obviously different. I don't know if other also use 'y' to write this sound but for me 'y' looks a bit like 'u' but sounds like 'i' in many languages. 'y' sound in Cuanciu accent is paralel to 'i' & 'u' in E-mng & Ciangciu accents.
"gia5 lai3 hO3 wa2" in ours can be with or without neutral tones. Without neutral tones: 'gia8 lai5 ho7 gua2' (non sandhi), similar to 'gia3 lai3 ho3 gua2' (sandhi). Our sandhi for 8 is between 3 and 2/4 but more like 3, especially for glottal stop. With neutralized tone: 'gia8 lai5 ho7 gua0' (non sandhi), similar to 'gia3 lai3 ho7 gua7'. The neutralized 'gua2', although I write it as 'gua0', is actually 'gua7'.
Our neutral tones have several values. Usually it's between 3 and 2/4 tones, light/unstressed and short. Sorry for typo in my previous posting. All pronouns ['gua2', 'gun2', 'lan2', 'ly2', 'lin2', 'i1', 'in1'] are neutralized as 7th tone. Another exception: chair 椅仔 'i2 a8' -> 'i3 a8'.
Our 2 and 4 tones are alike but have different sandhi. E.g.: ‘si2’死 (die) and ‘si4’ 閃 (shine/flash, as in ‘si4 na3’ lightning) sound alike but have different sandhi. Also ‘ci2’ 止 (stop) and ‘ci4’ [接] (receive).
Here are some audio samples of tone & sandhi in our dialect/accent: http://www.geocities.com/niucls/htrhr.htm . It has not been updated for a couple of years hence many information are wrong or not accurate. I was not aware of tone number then but from word samples you should be able to tell the tone numbers. I’ll find time to update it later. Btw, if you get error window pop-ups, just keep selecting ‘No’ until the page shown. Sorry for the inconvenience caused.
About capital ‘O’ and zero ‘0’, sorry for my misread. About vowels after 'n','m','ng'; I think they are inevitably nasalized, at least slightly. However, naturally their nasalization degree doesn’t differentiate meaning.
Yeah, for us 先生 ‘sian1 si*1’ (sandhi: ‘sian7 si*1’) also means “Mr.” (mister). For us, usually it’s [surname]+ ‘sian3 si*0’ (sandhi form). I think actually it’s ‘sian0 si*0’ but the first neutral tone changed to 3rd tone naturally. The shorter and more natural form is [surname]+’sian0’ 先 and used for ‘Mr.’ & ‘Miss’.
Interestingly, our pronunciation for The Eight Immortals八仙 is not ‘pue4 sian1’ (parallel to your ‘peh8 siEn1’) but ‘pat4 sian1’. Yet The Eighteen Arhats 十八羅漢 is ‘cap8 pue4 lo5 han3’, not ‘sip8 pat4 lo5 han3’. Another name for Monkey God is ‘sun1 ngo7 khong1’ 孫悟空; ‘ngo7’ can also be ‘go7’. For many, it becomes ‘sun1 mo7 kong1’.
All friends: please share about tone, sandhi & neutral tone in your dialect/accent. Thanks.
Should we start a new thread?
[%sig%]
Thanks for the info. The pun is very interesting
. Yet when I read it, I thought of 隨猴 'te3 kau5' instead of 著猴 'tioh8 kau5'. The proverb is very true. Thanks. From what I observe, although some say that 土地公 'tho`2 te7 kong1' is 大伯公 'tua7 pe4 kong1', many Indonesian Chinese have both in their houses. The latter is on the altar and the former under it.
Yisheng:
Thanks for the info. BTW how do you get 4, 43, 13? Some also write tones like that. Are they like music notation (43 = fa mi)? I don't think the influence came from Malay as Malay is not a tonal language. Different pitch for tones, i.e. one tone number yet sounds differently, should be common to different dialects/accents. In our accent, the 8th tone 陽入 is very similar to 4th tone 去聲 in Mandarin. E.g.: 舌 'ci8' (tongue), 折 'ci8' (broken) are pronounced like 'ji4' [寄, 記] in Mandarin.
Sim:
About the reversed 'm' sound, Douglas' dictionary also mentions that it "is nearly German ü or French u, but not quite the same..". May be some people think they are the same sound, which may be a bit similar but obviously different. I don't know if other also use 'y' to write this sound but for me 'y' looks a bit like 'u' but sounds like 'i' in many languages. 'y' sound in Cuanciu accent is paralel to 'i' & 'u' in E-mng & Ciangciu accents.
"gia5 lai3 hO3 wa2" in ours can be with or without neutral tones. Without neutral tones: 'gia8 lai5 ho7 gua2' (non sandhi), similar to 'gia3 lai3 ho3 gua2' (sandhi). Our sandhi for 8 is between 3 and 2/4 but more like 3, especially for glottal stop. With neutralized tone: 'gia8 lai5 ho7 gua0' (non sandhi), similar to 'gia3 lai3 ho7 gua7'. The neutralized 'gua2', although I write it as 'gua0', is actually 'gua7'.
Our neutral tones have several values. Usually it's between 3 and 2/4 tones, light/unstressed and short. Sorry for typo in my previous posting. All pronouns ['gua2', 'gun2', 'lan2', 'ly2', 'lin2', 'i1', 'in1'] are neutralized as 7th tone. Another exception: chair 椅仔 'i2 a8' -> 'i3 a8'.
Our 2 and 4 tones are alike but have different sandhi. E.g.: ‘si2’死 (die) and ‘si4’ 閃 (shine/flash, as in ‘si4 na3’ lightning) sound alike but have different sandhi. Also ‘ci2’ 止 (stop) and ‘ci4’ [接] (receive).
Here are some audio samples of tone & sandhi in our dialect/accent: http://www.geocities.com/niucls/htrhr.htm . It has not been updated for a couple of years hence many information are wrong or not accurate. I was not aware of tone number then but from word samples you should be able to tell the tone numbers. I’ll find time to update it later. Btw, if you get error window pop-ups, just keep selecting ‘No’ until the page shown. Sorry for the inconvenience caused.
About capital ‘O’ and zero ‘0’, sorry for my misread.
About vowels after 'n','m','ng'; I think they are inevitably nasalized, at least slightly. However, naturally their nasalization degree doesn’t differentiate meaning. Yeah, for us 先生 ‘sian1 si*1’ (sandhi: ‘sian7 si*1’) also means “Mr.” (mister). For us, usually it’s [surname]+ ‘sian3 si*0’ (sandhi form). I think actually it’s ‘sian0 si*0’ but the first neutral tone changed to 3rd tone naturally. The shorter and more natural form is [surname]+’sian0’ 先 and used for ‘Mr.’ & ‘Miss’.
Interestingly, our pronunciation for The Eight Immortals八仙 is not ‘pue4 sian1’ (parallel to your ‘peh8 siEn1’) but ‘pat4 sian1’. Yet The Eighteen Arhats 十八羅漢 is ‘cap8 pue4 lo5 han3’, not ‘sip8 pat4 lo5 han3’. Another name for Monkey God is ‘sun1 ngo7 khong1’ 孫悟空; ‘ngo7’ can also be ‘go7’. For many, it becomes ‘sun1 mo7 kong1’.
All friends: please share about tone, sandhi & neutral tone in your dialect/accent. Thanks.
Should we start a new thread?
[%sig%]
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Andrew Yong
Tones
Yisheng: |32| for yinru and |4| for yangru is standard Amoy. Glossika gives |4| yinru |23| yangru for Quanzhou and |32| yinru |12| yangru (i.e. yangru is lower than yinru) for Zhangzhou, but Penang seems to follow Amoy.
Niuc: Do you not signal the glottal stop (h in missionary romanisation) for 4/8? I know it is superfluous with rusheng, but it avoids confusion because sometimes people make a mistake in the tone. E.g. 仔 in 椅仔 if I am reading correctly is a2 not ah8. I don't know if you actually pronounce it ah8 or if you made a mistake in the tone.
The |55| |24| etc. are not absolute, but relative tones, as everyone has different speaking pitch. 1 is lowest and 5 is highest.
andrew
Niuc: Do you not signal the glottal stop (h in missionary romanisation) for 4/8? I know it is superfluous with rusheng, but it avoids confusion because sometimes people make a mistake in the tone. E.g. 仔 in 椅仔 if I am reading correctly is a2 not ah8. I don't know if you actually pronounce it ah8 or if you made a mistake in the tone.
The |55| |24| etc. are not absolute, but relative tones, as everyone has different speaking pitch. 1 is lowest and 5 is highest.
andrew
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yisheng
Re: Hokkien Dialect Radio
Hi Niuc, Andrew,
I was talking about the tones as in glossika although in my case, there are only 1 to 4. 1 the lowest and 4 the highest. I know that there should be a 5 for the international standard but the books which I had came across do not mention the 5.
Anyway, it seems that yang2 ru4 sheng1 is pronounced the same way throughout the different accents in Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia? My hypothesis is that this may be due to the influence of mandarin because some elderly folk in Penang do pronounce the yang2 ru4 sheng1 differently from the way we pronounce it. Theirs is the "low to high" form as in 13 or 12 as in glossika which would be similar to that in chiangchiu or chuanchiu. As this form of the yang2 ru4 pronounciation is limited to the elderly who may have had less exposure to mandarin, especially so in Penang, hence that might have been the reason. I'm also trying to find out if there are other major tonal changes in Penang Hokkien or that spoken elsewhere in the region. If anyone knows, please contribute.
yisheng
I was talking about the tones as in glossika although in my case, there are only 1 to 4. 1 the lowest and 4 the highest. I know that there should be a 5 for the international standard but the books which I had came across do not mention the 5.
Anyway, it seems that yang2 ru4 sheng1 is pronounced the same way throughout the different accents in Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia? My hypothesis is that this may be due to the influence of mandarin because some elderly folk in Penang do pronounce the yang2 ru4 sheng1 differently from the way we pronounce it. Theirs is the "low to high" form as in 13 or 12 as in glossika which would be similar to that in chiangchiu or chuanchiu. As this form of the yang2 ru4 pronounciation is limited to the elderly who may have had less exposure to mandarin, especially so in Penang, hence that might have been the reason. I'm also trying to find out if there are other major tonal changes in Penang Hokkien or that spoken elsewhere in the region. If anyone knows, please contribute.
yisheng
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Niuc
Re: Hokkien Dialect Radio
Hi Andrew
Thanks for the info. 仔 in 椅仔 for me is 'a8' ('ah8'). Btw, our pitch may be different, my 8th tone may be similar to your 2nd. Please refer to my posting here http://www.chineselanguage.org/forum/re ... =753&t=753 about our tone pitch.
Hi Yisheng
Thanks for the info too. Our 8th tone (yang2ru4) is 53 and from what I know, it's very similar to qu4sheng1 in Mandarin. Is qu4sheng1 53 too? Hopefully my 53 is not too far away from accuracy.
I don't think our 8th tone is under Mandarin's influence since those qu4sheng1 in Mandarin usually are 3rd or 7th in Hokkien. Moreover, most people in our hometown know very little Mandarin. A few of them who have visited Tang7-ua*1 (Tong2an1) county in Hokkien (Fujian) province say that the way native people there speaking is strikingly similar to ours.
[%sig%]
Thanks for the info. 仔 in 椅仔 for me is 'a8' ('ah8'). Btw, our pitch may be different, my 8th tone may be similar to your 2nd. Please refer to my posting here http://www.chineselanguage.org/forum/re ... =753&t=753 about our tone pitch.
Hi Yisheng
Thanks for the info too. Our 8th tone (yang2ru4) is 53 and from what I know, it's very similar to qu4sheng1 in Mandarin. Is qu4sheng1 53 too? Hopefully my 53 is not too far away from accuracy.
I don't think our 8th tone is under Mandarin's influence since those qu4sheng1 in Mandarin usually are 3rd or 7th in Hokkien. Moreover, most people in our hometown know very little Mandarin. A few of them who have visited Tang7-ua*1 (Tong2an1) county in Hokkien (Fujian) province say that the way native people there speaking is strikingly similar to ours.
[%sig%]