I have been learning cantonese since I was 16 and am now 22. I had to learn through informal purposes due to lack of formal teaching materials.Even the written teaching guides on cantonese i find a bit dodgy at times...
I am today fluent in cantonese. All my cantones was learnt here amonst the chinese community in Australia. I immersed myself in cantonese culture, became a waiter at a yum cha restuarant and as customer service in a chinese bank.
I find a world of problems in learning cantonese. they include:
1. Speaking with the right tones is easy when you are calm but is difficult when you are shy or have to shout..
2. people always say "you can speak cantonese! wow". it sounds nice but try having it said to you by a stranger in a bus while you chat on a mobile and it is very embarrassing, especially when it happens 20 times a day
3. The cantonese language is full of explicit and racist language, while racial prejudice is entrenched in chinese culture.
I have much experience with cantonese speakers, too much to write here, but if you need any advice or have questions send me an email.
happynews69@hotmail.com
learning cantonese-my experience
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Anon
Re: learning cantonese-my experience
On your third point
"3. The cantonese language is full of explicit and racist language, while racial prejudice is entrenched in chinese culture."
I think it unfair, and quite obstinate really, to say that Chinese culture is "entrenched" with racial prejudice, as though it were an integral part of the culture. And to say that the Cantonese language is full of expletives and racialistic language, is really quite narrow-minded of you. Whilst vernacular Cantonese can be said to be quite vulgar, or even crude, in its day-to-day usage, the formal language is an entirely different kettle of fish, it's much, much more eloquent. And note that the vernacular used in Chinese communities, and that which you've learnt, is often vulgar and slangy. It would be odd for one who is Cantonese to converse with another in the formal tongue. But even in the vernacular, Cantonese is no more worse than any other world language in the availability of racialistic/expletive language it has. English, i'm sure, has just as many racist terms, and i bet and certainly have encountered, much wider tendency to use racist language amongst English people (of Great Britain). And to specifically single out Chinese culture as being racist is downright absurd, no culture is free of its fair share of prejudices.
What would you be doing speaking Cantonese on your mobile in a packed-bus anyway? If you aim deliberately to show of your skills, then you should expect attention from others. Don't want it? Then don't flaunt it. I was brought-up on English and Cantonese, with Welsh being the language i was educated in and spoken in the community. I now live in London, i don't go about speaking Welsh on the packed train home... When i have /needed/ to, i do get the odd remark, but then what would one expect?
"3. The cantonese language is full of explicit and racist language, while racial prejudice is entrenched in chinese culture."
I think it unfair, and quite obstinate really, to say that Chinese culture is "entrenched" with racial prejudice, as though it were an integral part of the culture. And to say that the Cantonese language is full of expletives and racialistic language, is really quite narrow-minded of you. Whilst vernacular Cantonese can be said to be quite vulgar, or even crude, in its day-to-day usage, the formal language is an entirely different kettle of fish, it's much, much more eloquent. And note that the vernacular used in Chinese communities, and that which you've learnt, is often vulgar and slangy. It would be odd for one who is Cantonese to converse with another in the formal tongue. But even in the vernacular, Cantonese is no more worse than any other world language in the availability of racialistic/expletive language it has. English, i'm sure, has just as many racist terms, and i bet and certainly have encountered, much wider tendency to use racist language amongst English people (of Great Britain). And to specifically single out Chinese culture as being racist is downright absurd, no culture is free of its fair share of prejudices.
What would you be doing speaking Cantonese on your mobile in a packed-bus anyway? If you aim deliberately to show of your skills, then you should expect attention from others. Don't want it? Then don't flaunt it. I was brought-up on English and Cantonese, with Welsh being the language i was educated in and spoken in the community. I now live in London, i don't go about speaking Welsh on the packed train home... When i have /needed/ to, i do get the odd remark, but then what would one expect?
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yoboidar
Re: learning cantonese-my experience
I would say "Wow, you can speak foul language fluently in Cantonese!!!" I am sure that your Cantonese standard is just as bad as that of my English. I speak fluent English too (at least I think so). But the fact is there would be no problem for me to shout at people on the street in English. Besides, please don't expect me to chat with people exchanging idea deeply. Just kinda "Hey, man! u know wat...". That kind of superficial stuff.
btw, please don't expect me to tell you my "trash" with the English speakers although I got too much to write here. You wouldn't gain a penny anyway. Better find others really help then.
tarra4now.
btw, please don't expect me to tell you my "trash" with the English speakers although I got too much to write here. You wouldn't gain a penny anyway. Better find others really help then.
tarra4now.
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Person Not From your lit
Re: learning cantonese-my experience
Sorry, I DO NOT AGREE with your third point TOTALLY. I wonder what kind of "Cantonese" you have learnt from that "community" for years? It seems to me that you have wasted your time to learn that kind of "Cantonese". Please open up, and stop sticking with that "community".
Because of your third point, I doubt whether you can really speak cantonese fluently. But I am pretty sure that you must be an expert of dirty words in Cantonese after these years of "learning".
And I would not be surprised that some day you find yourself do not understand the MAJORITY of the Cantonese (the real mccoy) is talking about once you leave the little circle!!!
A simply method to test your circle and talk something dirty (in fact I do not recommend it, but from the view point of learning you might try.) and you may got the following reactions:
- you got something dirty back. (the cantonese language you learnt there is those among the lowest class) Prob. wrong pronunciation and grammar.
- you got correction instead. I cannot say for sure that their Cantonese is perfect. But at least you are on the right track to the fluent Cantonese.
Good Luck to you.
Because of your third point, I doubt whether you can really speak cantonese fluently. But I am pretty sure that you must be an expert of dirty words in Cantonese after these years of "learning".
And I would not be surprised that some day you find yourself do not understand the MAJORITY of the Cantonese (the real mccoy) is talking about once you leave the little circle!!!
A simply method to test your circle and talk something dirty (in fact I do not recommend it, but from the view point of learning you might try.) and you may got the following reactions:
- you got something dirty back. (the cantonese language you learnt there is those among the lowest class) Prob. wrong pronunciation and grammar.
- you got correction instead. I cannot say for sure that their Cantonese is perfect. But at least you are on the right track to the fluent Cantonese.
Good Luck to you.
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Julian
Re: learning cantonese-my experience
It's strange.. but when I first read your point saying "racial prejudice is entrenched in chinese culture", I didn't give it much thought - and though I should know better, I just sort of absorbed it. It's certainly true you should be careful to think about what you read as well as what you write.
I'm surprised at myself that I didn't give your remark much critical thought until I read other peoples responses; in particular because of an incident I experienced a while ago that made me aware of the racism that exists in some circles here.
I was hanging out with a slightly different crowd to those I usually went out with.. and there were 4 of us in a car in traffic. A car alongside us contained a family of asian people, and to my horror and complete embarrassment, the other guys started stretching their eyes with their fingers, making stupid noises and generally doing what they thought was mimicking an asian face. The poor family (including children) next to us could do nothing but look away - and I'm embarrassed to say I just sat there in complete shock. To this day I wish I'd just got out of the car then and there and walked away from these 'friends' - instead I was a silent coward - though of course I didn't hang out with them ever again.
The experience made me keener than ever to learn about other cultures & languages - in part to distance myself as far as possible from these people who without any knowledge or understanding of the other culture, were perfectly happy to cause distress to complete strangers.
If this had been my only circle of friends, I guess I might get a very warped view of Australians and say that racism was 'entrenched in the culture'.
I'm hoping you've adjusted your ideas after the previous responses.. and maybe like I did, you made the mistake of reading something and not considering it carefully enough before taking it on board as fact.. or maybe as others have hinted, you've not come into contact with such a wide circle of Cantonese speakers after all.
Cheers,
Julz
: I have been learning cantonese since I was 16 and am now 22. I had to learn through informal purposes due to lack of formal teaching materials.Even the written teaching guides on cantonese i find a bit dodgy at times...
: I am today fluent in cantonese. All my cantones was learnt here amonst the chinese community in Australia. I immersed myself in cantonese culture, became a waiter at a yum cha restuarant and as customer service in a chinese bank.
: I find a world of problems in learning cantonese. they include:
: 1. Speaking with the right tones is easy when you are calm but is difficult when you are shy or have to shout..
: 2. people always say "you can speak cantonese! wow". it sounds nice but try having it said to you by a stranger in a bus while you chat on a mobile and it is very embarrassing, especially when it happens 20 times a day
: 3. The cantonese language is full of explicit and racist language, while racial prejudice is entrenched in chinese culture.
:
: I have much experience with cantonese speakers, too much to write here, but if you need any advice or have questions send me an email.
: happynews69@hotmail.com
I'm surprised at myself that I didn't give your remark much critical thought until I read other peoples responses; in particular because of an incident I experienced a while ago that made me aware of the racism that exists in some circles here.
I was hanging out with a slightly different crowd to those I usually went out with.. and there were 4 of us in a car in traffic. A car alongside us contained a family of asian people, and to my horror and complete embarrassment, the other guys started stretching their eyes with their fingers, making stupid noises and generally doing what they thought was mimicking an asian face. The poor family (including children) next to us could do nothing but look away - and I'm embarrassed to say I just sat there in complete shock. To this day I wish I'd just got out of the car then and there and walked away from these 'friends' - instead I was a silent coward - though of course I didn't hang out with them ever again.
The experience made me keener than ever to learn about other cultures & languages - in part to distance myself as far as possible from these people who without any knowledge or understanding of the other culture, were perfectly happy to cause distress to complete strangers.
If this had been my only circle of friends, I guess I might get a very warped view of Australians and say that racism was 'entrenched in the culture'.
I'm hoping you've adjusted your ideas after the previous responses.. and maybe like I did, you made the mistake of reading something and not considering it carefully enough before taking it on board as fact.. or maybe as others have hinted, you've not come into contact with such a wide circle of Cantonese speakers after all.
Cheers,
Julz
: I have been learning cantonese since I was 16 and am now 22. I had to learn through informal purposes due to lack of formal teaching materials.Even the written teaching guides on cantonese i find a bit dodgy at times...
: I am today fluent in cantonese. All my cantones was learnt here amonst the chinese community in Australia. I immersed myself in cantonese culture, became a waiter at a yum cha restuarant and as customer service in a chinese bank.
: I find a world of problems in learning cantonese. they include:
: 1. Speaking with the right tones is easy when you are calm but is difficult when you are shy or have to shout..
: 2. people always say "you can speak cantonese! wow". it sounds nice but try having it said to you by a stranger in a bus while you chat on a mobile and it is very embarrassing, especially when it happens 20 times a day
: 3. The cantonese language is full of explicit and racist language, while racial prejudice is entrenched in chinese culture.
:
: I have much experience with cantonese speakers, too much to write here, but if you need any advice or have questions send me an email.
: happynews69@hotmail.com
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nollie
Re: learning cantonese-my experience
Here's a test about whether rasicm is entrenched in Chinese culture. Go home with a white friend and see what your parents call him or her. If its guailo, guaiyan, guaimooi etc how can you not say that racism is entrenched in the Cantonese language? Just because its common does not make it acceptable. It is true that in English we do have a large number of racist slurs but it generally recognised that these are bad. How many Chinese do you think think twice before using these expressions; from my experience very few.
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Anon
Re: learning cantonese-my experience
Gwei-lo, gwei-yan etc., through extreme common usage no longer has a racialistic stigma attached to it. That is not to say that its original usage wasn't racially offensive though; what alternative is there available to be said without sounding odd? There aren't any- which is most likely why these terms are the only ones you hear to describe those of Anglo descent. And those who use the term, i'm sure, do not mean to be racist and have no racist intention in mind. I know i use the term without having any racialistic intention.
"It is true that in English we do have a large number of racist slurs but it generally recognised that these are bad."
It is quite ignorant of you to suggest that Chinese people as a whole are unable to distinguish intentionally offensive form from polite speech. I would describe a person of Afro-carribean descent as 'huk-gwei' (sorry, bad romanisation) which i wouldn't consider to be particularly racialistic. Conversely, were i to use 'huk-taai' instead, then i'd blatantly be showing my disregard and ignorance for that person's ethnic character. I am able to distinguish between those two forms, as is my mother and father, who may i add, are anything but racist. I'm not saying that Chinese people are wholly free from racial prejudice, that's just not the case, and neither is it for any world culture, there are some who are racist and discriminate freely, but then there are the majority who aren't so thoughtlessly narrow-minded and bigoted.
"How many Chinese do you think think twice before using these expressions; from my experience very few."
Think twice. Twice about what? There would be no alternative term to be said without sounding peculiar. The majority of Chinese when using those terms use them without any racialistic connotations.
"It is true that in English we do have a large number of racist slurs but it generally recognised that these are bad."
Those who are obstinately bigoted enough and also happen to be English may be quick not to use the vast array of racist language available to them, whilst refraining from using language which is 'bad' though, they may openly be discriminative through their actions and body-language; i have encountered and still do encounter people who think they have to speak slowly when talking to me, drawing out their words, and waiting for some sort of affirmation that i've understood- very patronising. Either that or they're very rude in what they say and what they do, whilst not specifically signalling that it's because i'm Chinese, the message is clear enough. To be fair though, this i've only encountered in the smaller cities of the UK (Portsmouth, Dover, Margate, Newport etc.), and i must say much more when i was younger than now.
I think i'm beginning ramble on now, i apologise. Haven't time to proof-read, so please excuse any mistakes, cheers.
"It is true that in English we do have a large number of racist slurs but it generally recognised that these are bad."
It is quite ignorant of you to suggest that Chinese people as a whole are unable to distinguish intentionally offensive form from polite speech. I would describe a person of Afro-carribean descent as 'huk-gwei' (sorry, bad romanisation) which i wouldn't consider to be particularly racialistic. Conversely, were i to use 'huk-taai' instead, then i'd blatantly be showing my disregard and ignorance for that person's ethnic character. I am able to distinguish between those two forms, as is my mother and father, who may i add, are anything but racist. I'm not saying that Chinese people are wholly free from racial prejudice, that's just not the case, and neither is it for any world culture, there are some who are racist and discriminate freely, but then there are the majority who aren't so thoughtlessly narrow-minded and bigoted.
"How many Chinese do you think think twice before using these expressions; from my experience very few."
Think twice. Twice about what? There would be no alternative term to be said without sounding peculiar. The majority of Chinese when using those terms use them without any racialistic connotations.
"It is true that in English we do have a large number of racist slurs but it generally recognised that these are bad."
Those who are obstinately bigoted enough and also happen to be English may be quick not to use the vast array of racist language available to them, whilst refraining from using language which is 'bad' though, they may openly be discriminative through their actions and body-language; i have encountered and still do encounter people who think they have to speak slowly when talking to me, drawing out their words, and waiting for some sort of affirmation that i've understood- very patronising. Either that or they're very rude in what they say and what they do, whilst not specifically signalling that it's because i'm Chinese, the message is clear enough. To be fair though, this i've only encountered in the smaller cities of the UK (Portsmouth, Dover, Margate, Newport etc.), and i must say much more when i was younger than now.
I think i'm beginning ramble on now, i apologise. Haven't time to proof-read, so please excuse any mistakes, cheers.
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Person Not From your lit
Birds of a feather flock together
Dear Nollie
Are you Cantonese? If you are Cantonese, I am sorry - Ummm...That was the problem of your family (Chinese would not comment on others' family affairs, especially one's family education - the moral one!!!)
But if you are not Chinese, how many Cantonese do you know? I am Cantonese and so are my friends. I can tell you ALL my family members and my friends will PASS your "test" UNDOUBTEDLY. Not from my experience, just from where I am.
In fact, you should have corrected your friends' doings. Or you may think they are not your friends anyway, why should I?
Good Luck to you too.
Are you Cantonese? If you are Cantonese, I am sorry - Ummm...That was the problem of your family (Chinese would not comment on others' family affairs, especially one's family education - the moral one!!!)
But if you are not Chinese, how many Cantonese do you know? I am Cantonese and so are my friends. I can tell you ALL my family members and my friends will PASS your "test" UNDOUBTEDLY. Not from my experience, just from where I am.
In fact, you should have corrected your friends' doings. Or you may think they are not your friends anyway, why should I?
Good Luck to you too.
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nollie
Re: Birds of a feather flock together
Congratulations on passing my test; its nice to see some Cantonese don't use such words. However
its interesting to read the contrast in replies between this post and the next one. You say you don't usesuch terms while the next guy tries to argue that its okay because its said without any racist intent. Well, starting with you; one of my Cantonese friends commonly uses this term, his family background is white collar and grandparents occupied prominent political position in Guangzhou, I don't think this is an issue of bearing. And where do you live?I am guessing its not in a Chinese city. The changes you suggest in usage are much more likely to occur in overseas communities where multiculturalism predominates and has influenced your family. To be honest you could go to a State School and get your "education". Finally, give us a clear answer to whether or not you think this is a racist term.
its interesting to read the contrast in replies between this post and the next one. You say you don't usesuch terms while the next guy tries to argue that its okay because its said without any racist intent. Well, starting with you; one of my Cantonese friends commonly uses this term, his family background is white collar and grandparents occupied prominent political position in Guangzhou, I don't think this is an issue of bearing. And where do you live?I am guessing its not in a Chinese city. The changes you suggest in usage are much more likely to occur in overseas communities where multiculturalism predominates and has influenced your family. To be honest you could go to a State School and get your "education". Finally, give us a clear answer to whether or not you think this is a racist term.
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nollie
Re: learning cantonese-my experience
I am not saying that the majority of chinese say these words with an intention to insult, what I am saying is that they still signify a lack of respect. The reason Chinese haven't changed this expression is because the majority of "guei" can't understand the word and so there seems to be no harm done. But there are exceptions, I know quite a few people from a non-Chinese background who can speak Cantonese and they are all a little insulted at its usage.
There are alternatives, the guy who posted the other reply to my message said as much. There is no reason why you can not use the word "yan" when describing nationalities or ethnic groups. Even the use of "saiyan" west-person instaed of "guailo" is much better.
I am not saying that many Chinese today are racist especially those that live in overseas communities I am simply arguing that often the language they use is, and can still cause offence.
Finally I would like to give my sympathy to you in regards to the non-verbal racism you felt in your youth. I ask, but, that you consider whether all these people were actually racist or acting in a way that for them is natural-much like the way you feel these terms are natural
There are alternatives, the guy who posted the other reply to my message said as much. There is no reason why you can not use the word "yan" when describing nationalities or ethnic groups. Even the use of "saiyan" west-person instaed of "guailo" is much better.
I am not saying that many Chinese today are racist especially those that live in overseas communities I am simply arguing that often the language they use is, and can still cause offence.
Finally I would like to give my sympathy to you in regards to the non-verbal racism you felt in your youth. I ask, but, that you consider whether all these people were actually racist or acting in a way that for them is natural-much like the way you feel these terms are natural