Appropriated hanji for che/chiah--e5/chia/chit/chiah-nih8

[FutureSpy]

I esp. like how MY/SG Hokkien has taken in a lot of Teochew and Malay elements. Harry Lee got a kick out of calling Sg Hoklo "an adulterated Hokkien-Teochew mix", but what could be better for Hokkien and Teochew than to adulterate each other and grow?!

You mean they influenced each other, but still exist as separated languages (assuming, of course, both as separated Minnan languages) in S'pore/M'sia? Or they merged to form a hybrid language (perhaps with Hokkien dominancy)?

The military: always an interesting element. My guess is that military service has played a HUGE role in the acceptance of Mandarin in Taiwan, and in building tolerance for Hoklo among the 49er Chinese of TW. It's also a powerful indoctrination in ROC identity. Guys who've done their time in the ROC armed forces seem to be unable to relate to China (PRC) wholeheartedly -- there's always this animosity there, this vague, "wanton" desire for revenge.

Well, Taiwanese people were brainwashed (like everywhere else; time has changed, people is well-educated but still easily manipulated.. if not gov, it's the medias.. okay, end of my disgressing :\) by Japanese once, and then by ROC. Anyway, remaining as a separated nation would of course be benefitial to all Taiwanese languages. Language policy in Taiwan is far from acceptable, but of course, what they've got now is better than nothing. I just feel Taiwanese Government fail to acknowledge Taiwan as a multilingual society, and things don't seem to be going to change. S'pore isn't what I'd call a model of multilingual society, but things there seem to somewhat work (except by the "Speak Mandarin" thing and by government refusal to recognize Hokkien as an official language). I see lots of claims that Taiwanese, Hakka and other minority (I hate the term "aboriginal") languages are being taught at Taiwanese schools for a number of years already, but looking at youngsters in Taiwan, if they -EVER- received any education in mother tongue, it was indeed not effective at all. I don't know what they're doing, but something is really wrong there... [ While I'm writing that, many minority languages in Brazil are also dying out. My grandparents "dialect" is also dying out in Japan. Their state is comparable or even worse than that from many "aboriginal" languages in Taiwan. It's so easy to talk about others while you're probably not doing homework either ]

Maybe. Maybe not. Psychologically, they're very important to some people. Loanwords from JPnese form the backbone of the argument that "TWnese and Banlamese are two different languages". But how many JPnese loans are there in TWnese Hoklo that don't exist side by side with a commonly used native word or Mandarin loan? Of the hundreds or thousands that fit this description, I'd venture to say that most are either pan-Asian-Pacific Sino-Japanese calques OR have to do with 20th cen. technology, such as the parts of a car or motorbike, or the word for MOTORBIKE itself: o·tóbái, or the word for LIGHTER: làità.

Okay, but my hope is that somewhere in Hoklosphere, new terms for at least some of these concepts and new things have been coined based on Hokkien native terms. Mandarin loans and calques are as bad as Japanese loans and calques.

I don't know, when I think about minority languages, I just feel so... I don't know, sad? Since nothing is being done in favour of Hokkien by governments, and most speakers seem to just don't care about it (I once looked down at my grandparents' dialect so I know that feeling), I feel powerless, but I know I could do something for them as well instead of whining here. I don't know, I'm just stupid

Also the approach to sex and the sexes.

No idea 'bout that. So if you could briefly comment on that...

[amhoanna]

You mean they influenced each other, but still exist as separated languages (assuming, of course, both as separated Minnan languages) in S'pore/M'sia? Or they merged to form a hybrid language (perhaps with Hokkien dominancy)?

Niuc would be the man to answer this. I know when I went to Sg, sometimes I could eavesdrop reasonably, and other times the accents sounded wild and I mostly 掠無球 lia̍h bô kiû. I think in the 2nd case the people were actually speaking Teochew. This happened esp. on the bus to Sinsoaⁿ (新山 / Johor). My guess is that both languages hv been shot through with the other, and the mix gets more thorough w/ each generation.

Okay, but my hope is that somewhere in Hoklosphere, new terms for at least some of these concepts and new things have been coined based on Hokkien native terms. Mandarin loans and calques are as bad as Japanese loans and calques.

Agreed. The people most active in coining new but "genuine" Hoklo words seem to mostly be in certain masculine subcultures such as the "import" racing scene, the construction industry, manufacturing, etc. Also, dialects differ in vocab and any one dialect might happen to use a "native"-type word for any given thing. I like to "collect" such words and start using them myself. We may or may not hv the clout to spread them, but at least we can use them.

An old discussion about the Mandarization of Tai Hok, for those that rd Mand:
http://gaaan.com/Taiwanese?p=77047
http://gaaan.com/Taiwanese?p=77090

Some argue that loanwords are good, they strengthen a language, "just look at English." Well, the Anglos had to get rid of Norman rule and stem the tide of Norman French loanwords... If the Taiwanese want to "do as the Saxons did", they better start by getting rid of ROC rule and cutting down on the ROC-Mand. loans.

but looking at youngsters in Taiwan, if they -EVER- received any education in mother tongue, it was indeed not effective at all.

They are scheduling "mother tongue" classes once or twice a week. What they really need to do is teach history, geography, geometry and physics using the mother tongue. That would fix things.

Taiwanese people were brainwashed (like everywhere else; time has changed, people is well-educated but still easily manipulated.. if not gov, it's the medias.. okay, end of my disgressing :\) by Japanese once, and then by ROC.

Yes.

Anyway, remaining as a separated nation would of course be benefitial to all Taiwanese languages.

This is hard to say, although "emotionally" I agree. Confucius never said one nation must have one language, but every Confucianist polity is intensely monolingual, 不約而同. There is something about "other languages in our midst" that infuriates Confucianist leaders and yes-men intelligentsia. De-Confucianization would be beneficial to all Taiwanese languages. I acknowledge that this view may piss off many foreros, in hopes that it'll piss them off less.

when I think about minority languages, I just feel so... I don't know, sad? Since nothing is being done in favour of Hokkien by governments, and most speakers seem to just don't care about it (I once looked down at my grandparents' dialect so I know that feeling),

Well, it gives the fighters something to fight for.

Also the approach to sex and the sexes.

No idea 'bout that. So if you could briefly comment on that...

It's hard for me to "briefly" comment on this, but I'll try. Traditional TW Yam Hoklo culture is clearly more "sexist" than the 49er Republican culture, partly b/c the latter made its breaks with tradition two, three generations ago. In a way, young women have been voting with their feet for 30, 40 yrs. Yet it seems that the TW Yam Hoklo culture is also more sexist than Hoklo culture anywhere else. By all accounts, JP and KR culture are also intensely sexist... My "theory" is that the Japanese indoctrination intensified and hardened the damn thing in TW as well, although the groping incidents are +/- unheard of, and thank the gods, b/c the idea of getting off on groping a girl on the subway just seems so stupid. Still, the culture is just so oppressive to women, mostly in passive ways. If she's single and she's getting laid, then she's a slut or a whore. Worthless. If she's married, her husband will work 60 hr weeks and spend his "free time" drinking with the boss. (This is somewhat true in Republican culture too.) ... One girl in our class in jr hi in TW had a beautiful figure at age 13, with true tetonas by Asia Pacific standards, although nothing out of the ordinary in an Afro-Euro-Arab gene pool. And guess what, the guys in the class would make fun of her all the time for having this blessing, in a friendly way, but enough to give her a hard time. Soah m̄ cai boé ·á i kè hō· pe̍hlâng. (Años después se casó con un blanco.) I think all this "un-ease and dysfunction" partly explains the fixation on food... And of course the food is pretty good!

Another lode of good videos for Hoklo learning:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wq4_HE7i ... AAAAAAAAAA

Happy hunting.

[FutureSpy]

Some argue that loanwords are good, they strengthen a language, "just look at English." Well, the Anglos had to get rid of Norman rule and stem the tide of Norman French loanwords... If the Taiwanese want to "do as the Saxons did", they better start by getting rid of ROC rule and cutting down on the ROC-Mand. loans.

Agreed. Actually, at today's rate, since most speakers are at least bilingual in Mandarin and Hokkien, they'll conveniently use Mandarin words pronounced the Hokkien way when they don't know how to say it in Hokkien and hardly any newly coined will get widespread. In Catalonia, the same happens. Catalan is probably one of the (if not THE) healthiest minority language in Europe. Nowadays it's mother tongue of only 50% of Catalan people, meaning that the remainder have Spanish as first language. Nevertheless, nearly everyone educated in Catalonia can speak and understand it because of what they call "immersion". All classes are in Catalan, except Spanish. [Well, of course that doesn't always happens: a friend of mine had some classes in Spanish 'cos most people in her class were hispanohablantes (herself included).] Even that isn't enough to keep Spanish from degrading Catalan. The sad truth is that most Catalan people do write bad Catalan, copy Spanish constructions even when a Catalan construction does exists, and their accent gets more Spanized with every generation. New terms are coined by TermCat. Some new terms do catch and even end up replacing the Spanish word, but sometimes it's too late for them to coin a Catalan term and people simply ignore it. After a few years, they end up accepting the Spanish one. In the other hand, other languages scuh as Guarani Mbyá, spoken in Southern Brazil and parts of Argentina and Paraguai, despite some Portuguese and Spanish influence, do seem to actively coin new terms. I don't know much about them, so no idea of what's their secret! haha

They are scheduling "mother tongue" classes once or twice a week. What they really need to do is teach history, geography, geometry and physics using the mother tongue. That would fix things.

We do have something complicated here. Taiwan is multilingual, there wouldn't be enough teachers for all subjects in each language. So even if they were to establish a 50/50 bilingual education in Mandarin + another language, what would be the right choice? The majoritarian one doesn't seem just right, 'cos say, in some Tainan regions (okay, these are assumptions as I don't know much about what's ethnic distribution in Taiwan) Taiwanese would be the most obvious choice, but what about languages such as Paiwan for an instance? Okay, historical justice isn't way to go, but leaving them off 'cos they're a minority in their own land doesn't seem right either. What about somewhere where Taiwanese, Hakka and other "aboriginal" languages are spoken? If some parents complaint about they children taking Hokkien or Hakka classes, how would they react if they were to establish some of the "aboriginal" languages as instruction languages? If you or others have any views about how to get over these hurdles, or even if you don't, I'd like to hear from you guys. I just can't think of any acceptable solution for that.

It's hard for me to "briefly" comment on this, but I'll try.

You don't have to just comment it "briefly" if you don't want to. I just think some people don't like having to explain things, but from what I've seen on some threads, not your case at all . I often exchange emails or PMs with people, and mine are always very very long. People just end up running away (it starts off with a "Sorry, I've been busy" and simply stop replying at stop point... )

Traditional TW Yam Hoklo culture is clearly more "sexist" than the 49er Republican culture, partly b/c the latter made its breaks with tradition two, three generations ago. In a way, young women have been voting with their feet for 30, 40 yrs. Yet it seems that the TW Yam Hoklo culture is also more sexist than Hoklo culture anywhere else. By all accounts, JP and KR culture are also intensely sexist... My "theory" is that the Japanese indoctrination intensified and hardened the damn thing in TW as well, although the groping incidents are +/- unheard of, and thank the gods, b/c the idea of getting off on groping a girl on the subway just seems so stupid. Still, the culture is just so oppressive to women, mostly in passive ways. If she's single and she's getting laid, then she's a slut or a whore. Worthless. If she's married, her husband will work 60 hr weeks and spend his "free time" drinking with the boss. (This is somewhat true in Republican culture too.) ...

That's interesting. I don't know enough about Taiwanese people to argue, nor do I know Chinese or Singaporean people to have a good comparison point on that. Anyway, if you hadn't mentioned you were talking about Taiwan, I'd instinctively think it was all about Japan. LOL. That also makes me remember all that "Oh I'm already in my # (put here something around 25 and 28) and am still single" thing in Japan. I guess it's not anymore like that, but that's just stupid. Like, if she doesn't want to get married now, why should she do that anyway? Anyway, I was born in 巴西, so talking about sexist mentality here is just redundant. When it's carnival, I simply shut myself in my room and just ignore what's going on everywhere else. People still argue "Oh, it's our culture!". Meh. And people here... Well, you see women obsessed about their look (for what's sake?), and guys have to have all the time the ol' same futile chitchat about how a chick is hot like if she was just a piece of meat.

[amhoanna]

Taiwan is multilingual, there wouldn't be enough teachers for all subjects in each language. So even if they were to

[amhoanna]

Taiwan is multilingual, there wouldn't be enough teachers for all subjects in each language. So even if they were to

Right, a lot of other problems crop up in practice. My take on this is that most of the languages spoken on the island, arguably even Hakka, are hindered from becoming "full-service languages" by a lack of numbers and a long-running lack of scope during the industrial era and beyond. Hoklo doesn't face a numbers problem yet, and doesn't face a scope problem on the same order of magnitude as Paiwan, for example. Maybe only Hoklo is saveable??

I tend to believe that very few Hoklophone parents in TW or anywhere would agree to have their kids learn geometry and economics in Hoklo. It's just "not the way things have been done". Preserving the status quo, whatever it is, is of the essence. The inability of young Hokkiens and Taiwanese to speak good Hoklo is a change in the status quo, and thus bad, but to fix things by changing the political order or overhauling education is simply "too hot" for the liking of most Hoklophones. And now that Hoklo has been on the decline for decades, most Hokkiens are "used to it" and don't really mind it anymore. Even the mainstream of the "Hoklo language movement" in Taiwan is mostly about "how can we change things w/o changing anything"? These people argue in favor of one extra Hoklo session a week for elementary school students, or a State-funded Hoklo TV station ... as if it would hv any impact.

What is really needed is a paradigm shift. Historically, the only way to shift the paradigm in a Hoklo -- I hesitate to say Asian Pacific -- society, is to take over the power structure by force and impose it top-down. If someone of great cunning and charisma were to take over Taiwan and impose Hoklo as the language of education and government in all traditionally Hoklophone cities and counties, there would be cries of foul play for a few yrs, but 10 yrs down the line most Hoklo parents would be unable to imagine their kids being schooled in any language but Hoklo, just as they are currently unable to imagine schooling in any language but Mandarin.

Would this-all be good or bad? That's a philosophical discussion.

if you hadn't mentioned you were talking about Taiwan, I'd instinctively think it was all about Japan.

Right! And as for Brasil and Latin America ... yet another can of worms. I feel that the issues are very different on that side.

And now, I must go, as I've been very busy.

[FutureSpy]

They're not likely to touch the education system, but perhaps if a daring government established that a reasonable number of hours (say, half of all schedule) everyday on TV and radio had to be in mother tongue, in the long-run that would possibly have a positive effect, wouldn't it? Of course, there'd be a cost, many foreigner programs would have to be dubbed in mother tongue, but considering they're already being dubbed in Mandarin, maybe not that bad? Most people do watch TV in a daily basis. Medias were one of the weapons they used to make Mandarin so widespread in Taiwan. But well, that's getting a lil too utopian, huh? I think creating new TV channels wouldn't do it 'cos people could perfectly ignore them, parents could tell children not to watch it, etc., but if they simply cut down the number of hours people is exposed to Mandarin, I don't think people would stop watching TV 'cos there's nothing on in Mandarin. Well, who knows... *shrugs*

[amhoanna]

I like Futurespy's solution, although it's about as (un)likely as the "Hoklo edutopia" I described. I esp. A low quota of 40-50% would put a delicious squeeze on the Mandocrats that run the media. Many of them would probably be out of work and have to move to China. If they cry foul, this is what they should hear: "You still have up to 50 or 60% of the available airtime left for Mandarin. So what are U crying about?!?!" Keeping in mind that the Mandocrat "party line" is that Mandarin and Hoklo share the public arena in a fair and organic way.

In 2003-04, I remember there was at least one Korean TV series that was dubbed in Hoklo instead of Mandarin. Don't know if this is still done. A pretty good idea, if U ask me.

[SimL]

You don't have to just comment it "briefly" if you don't want to. I just think some people don't like having to explain things, but from what I've seen on some threads, not your case at all . I often exchange emails or PMs with people, and mine are always very very long. People just end up running away (it starts off with a "Sorry, I've been busy" and simply stop replying at stop point... )

I don't write as much (or as in as much detail) as Amhoanna, but I certainly recognize this from my personal life as well!!! I've lost 2-3 potential penpals in the last year because of overwhelming them with text...

[xng]

Hi. I'm trying to learn Taiwanese, but I'm shrugging at what hanji would be appropriated for che (that), chiah--e5 (those), chia (here), chit (this) and chiah-nih8 (like that). I've been using 這, 遮個, 遮, 這 and 遮呢. My textbooks give some different solutions, but I'm afraid they're even more off. Could you please tell me if they're alright or suggest some better choices?

What about he, hiah--e5, hia, hit and hiah-nih8? I use 彼, 這個, 遐, 彼 and 遐呢.

Thanks in advance

Chia and Hia are modern taiwanese invention based on the two original characters 之 (this) and 許 (that).
這遐 are all borrowed characters for their sound. 彼 is borrowed character for the meaning

In south east asia, we use

之爿 - Ci Pin
許爿 - Hi Pin

Notice the same initial consonant 'C' and 'H'.
It is a contracted simplified sound for easy pronounciation just like 'Gun/Guan' which is originally

我人 - Gua Lang

[SimL]

Chia and Hia are modern taiwanese invention based on the two original characters 之 (this) and 許 (that).
這遐 are all borrowed characters for their sound. 彼 is borrowed character for the meaning

In south east asia, we use

之爿 - Ci Pin
許爿 - Hi Pin

My maternal grandparents (grandfather from Hui-uaN, grandmother from Amoy) both only said "cia" and "hia". They were both born in China, came directly from China to Malaya in their teens. I would imagine that their language use was then very little "contaminated" by Taiwanese Hokkien, Penang Baba Hokkien, Teochew, Malay, English, Tamil, etc. They would have spoken as pure a form of Hokkien as any purist might demand.

But they said "cia" and "hia". Not only did they say "cia" and "hia", but this was the most common way for them to say "here" and "there". They might have said "cit piəng" and "hi(t) piəng" for variety (and perhaps with a slight difference in meaning), but "cia" and "hia" were the most common terms. I never heard them say "ci pin" or "hi pin". [Note, I don't say "No Hokkiens in S.E. Asia say this", I only say that I have never heard my grandparents say this. I stick to just stating what I know, instead of declaring that my version / view of the world is valid for everyone else.]

Ah-bin was the first person who made me realise that the Minnan Forum is quite an important resource for people wishing to have information in English about Hokkien. As such, wildly incorrect statements - made here in a tone of perfect self-confidence and with an air of authority - need to be challenged and contradicted and shown to be wrong in the most immediate and blunt way possible.

Quoting from my previous reply to you on the topic of "Png" and "Hong": "I don't know where you get your ideas and opinions about Hokkien from, but they seem to be based on very limited knowledge and background." You seem to have a very "fundamentalist" approach to Hokkien (or even to the whole world?). You have formed your ideas about "how Hokkien should be" and then made that into "how Hokkien must be" and then even to "how Hokkien is". These ideas don't match reality in so many ways, but you don't seem to be able to modify them in the light of new knowledge and information.

You haven't posted here for months, and then, the first 2 posts where you do say something are completely incorrect. One of the most amazing things about the internet is that idiots now have the opportunity to display their ignorance - not just to the people immediately around them, but to the entire world.

PS. I'm sure it's "not very good karma" for me to be so blunt. "The Spirit is Willing, but the Flesh is Weak". I have to confess at having great satisfaction at being so blunt, after years of walking on eggshells, trying to be polite and respectful. .