Diphthongs

[amhoanna]

Makes sense. So perhaps calling Hokkien "Taiwanese" was also something introduced by the Japanese.

The term 台語 (not to mention 台湾語) was a Japanism, but the origins of the term 台湾話 are a bit less clear-cut. In some of the historical fiction I've read, the term that was used was "lán ê uē", poss. even "lánlâng'uē", and the second term is widespread in the Phils too, but I wouldn't be surprised if the term 台湾話 was already in use before the Japanese occupation.

Lee claiming himself as Japanese

He (Li Tenghui) really is. He was born during the "Japanese Era", got all his schooling in Japanese up till Cornell, and I think his brother fought for Japan in WW2. He was exclusively a JPnese citizen into his 20s. His JPnese is as good as his Hoklo, and better than his Mandarin or English. He can also read and write in JPnese, something no one has ever seem him (or most of his peers) do in Hoklo.

As ridiculous as it seems that "a Taiwanese man" would identify as Japanese, that just highlights how out of hand these national projects have gotten... A Phuket Malay might identify as "Thai", and do all her reading and Facebooking in Thai, while a Singapore Malay might identify as "Singaporean", and do all his reading and socializing in English, mostly broken, but any "attack" on their "betrayal" of their Malay "roots" would be counterattacked as mean-spirited and uncalled for, while national authorities in Bangkok and Temasek continually pour taxpayer money into the project of creating young people who couldn't imagine any other political or cultural reality.

Does Chinese Malaysian people consider themselves "Chinese"?

More than any other group of people on the planet, as far as I can see.

What's Chinese culture like nowadays in China? Sorry for my ignorance...

A Pacific-sized question. I would summarize it as being a sexually unappealing simplification of the past, and as standardization with political control in mind, all with masculine, land-based, "army/cavalry" aesthetics. It seems that the same thing has taken place in India, and in the Moslem world at large.

[Ah-bin]

He (Li Tenghui) really is. He was born during the "Japanese Era", got all his schooling in Japanese up till Cornell, and I think his brother fought for Japan in WW2. He was exclusively a JPnese citizen into his 20s. His JPnese is as good as his Hoklo, and better than his Mandarin or English. He can also read and write in JPnese, something no one has ever seem him (or most of his peers) do in Hoklo.

I think it might be good to add to this: "...and like all Taiwanese at the time, he had no idea that there would be a war, that Japan would lose it, that Taiwan would be handed over to the jurisdiction of the Republic of China and that the whole world he had grown up in would be turned upside down so that the educated people of his generation would be considered dangerous Japanese collaborators by their new government."

I think the Japanisation of Taiwanese had less to do with admiration for Japan and forgetting one's roots than being simply a wish to improve one's own circumstances by trying to function effectively and profitably in the society they lived in. Kind of like Chinese in in other countries who learnt English and became doctors and dentists rather than bothering to learn any kind of Chinese (now the situation has changed of course, because of Chinese money) the admiration grew later when they came up against the KMT and its soldiers.

I would say the whole idea of Japanised-Taiwanese seems wrong or perverse to many Chinese nowadays because they are constantly told about what the Japanese army did to Chinese in China and SE Asia, and also because these things happened within living memory. Whatever the Japanese did to Taiwanese during their takeover of Taiwan had mostly passed out of living memory by the time the war finished, so they didn't pick up the strongly anti-Japanese sentiments of the Chinese elsewhere.

This reminds me of an interesting story that involves Hokkien....
I read somewhere (I think in a book by 龍應台) that there were Hokkien-speaking Taiwanese in the Japanese army who met other Hokkien-Speaking Chinese as enemies in Borneo (or was it Hakkas). It would be interesting to find out how they reacted to each other. I have forgotten for the moment what happened.

[SimL]

As ridiculous as it seems that "a Taiwanese man" would identify as Japanese, that just highlights how out of hand these national projects have gotten... A Phuket Malay might identify as "Thai", and do all her reading and Facebooking in Thai, while a Singapore Malay might identify as "Singaporean", and do all his reading and socializing in English, mostly broken, but any "attack" on their "betrayal" of their Malay "roots" would be counterattacked as mean-spirited and uncalled for, while national authorities in Bangkok and Temasek continually pour taxpayer money into the project of creating young people who couldn't imagine any other political or cultural reality.

and

I think it might be good to add to this: "...and like all Taiwanese at the time, he had no idea that there would be a war, that Japan would lose it, that Taiwan would be handed over to the jurisdiction of the Republic of China and that the whole world he had grown up in would be turned upside down so that the educated people of his generation would be considered dangerous Japanese collaborators by their new government."

I think this is a really interesting topic, and I like Ah-bin's point.

What troubles me in discussions on this topic (I don't mean here, I mean in the world in general) is the idea that "race" or "*original*" ethnic culture is somehow "sacred", and that people giving this up is a betrayal. While they are very important aspects of identity, I think it's important not to become too fixated on them.

That's not to detract from amhoanna's point of course: that governments do try and brainwash citizens into some idealogical position which they desire them to have. Just look at how Singapore persuaded all the Chinese that the North Sinitic variety was their "mother tongue"! My reply is just a plea not to be too focussed on an "original" ethnic identity. These things are in a constant state of flux: a new ethnic identity can arise in 2-3 generations (e.g. the Babas in Malaysia). I think that this parallels my description of myself as a "descriptive linguist". In the same way as I don't believe that there was ever a "pure", "correct" form of a language, to which one should try and conform, I don't believe that there is a "pure", "correct" ethnic identity, to which one should try and conform. The ethnic identities as we know them are (often) a product of political and historical processes, some of them very fake and forced (e.g. by governments and colonialists), and some of them very natural.

And the line between "fake and forced" and "natural" is not always clear. There's a whole lot of grey area in between.

[amhoanna]

Nicely put, Ah-bin. And beautifully written.

Sim, I agree with you in spirit, and almost whole-heartedly. There's one aspect where I must cold-heartedly carve out an exception, which is people or peoples switching identities in order to associate themselves with whatever is "high class". As for the State apparatuses, yeah, they must be stopped.

The best tribes are blurred tribes! We should all be one people.

[SimL]

Hi amhoanna,

Sim, I agree with you in spirit, and almost whole-heartedly. There's one aspect where I must cold-heartedly carve out an exception, which is people or peoples switching identities in order to associate themselves with whatever is "high class".

Thanks .

Well, one of the most awful cases of this I heard about concerns "my very own people", i.e. the Babas.

I read that at some stage during the Boxer Rebellion (or it could have been the Taiping Rebellion, though I think more likely the Boxer, because British interests were more involved in that case), some Babas (but then, some pretty influential Baba community leaders, I imagine) wanted to put together a contingent of young Baba fighters to go to China and help the British troops put down the rebellion. Apparently, they identified so strongly with the British that they advocated such a step. It never happened (thank goodness!), but the fact that the idea could even be raised fills me with disgust.

I would be disgusted to hear this about any group opposing the Boxer rebellion, because the moral high ground was obviously held by the people who opposed the importation of opium, and the cutting up of China into areas run by the major colonial powers. To hear that a group of Chinese wanted to do it is beyond forgiving. [I still get quite ashamed and angry thinking about it, to this day!]

[Ah-bin]

SimL wrote
What troubles me in discussions on this topic (I don't mean here, I mean in the world in general) is the idea that "race" or "*original*" ethnic culture is somehow "sacred", and that people giving this up is a betrayal. While they are very important aspects of identity, I think it's important not to become too fixated on them.

Yes, and if I were loyal to my 'race' and 'culture', I'd spend all my time researching Geordie folk-songs and sayings (my 'low culture') or Chaucer or Shakespeare (my 'high culture', or should it be Greek and Latin?) and less time nosing into the speech and literature of those with whom I share less genetic material!

Also, what I find interesting is how much of the 'traditional culture' that is upheld as sacred is romanticised, static, fossilised fragments of what existed before some other group came along to assimilate and colonise.

Amhoanna wrote
Nicely put, Ah-bin. And beautifully written.

Why thank you, I was worried that it was a bit of a rant! The fact that I have spoken to many Chinese who refused to believe that some Taiwanese went so far as to change their surnames, or were happy to speak to their families in Japanese because they got a stipend for being able to prove they were a kokugo katei 國語家庭 (national language family) always makes me desirous of pressing the point!

[amhoanna]

The fact that I have spoken to many Chinese who refused to believe that some Taiwanese went so far as to change their surnames, or were happy to speak to their families in Japanese because they got a stipend for being able to prove they were a kokugo katei 國語家庭 (national language family) always makes me desirous of pressing the point!

Anyone who is willfully wrong deserves to have their face held down and rubbed in the grubby truth till they fess up! Esp. if they are willfully wrong en masse!

A story about how far some TWese took the kokugo katei thing. A friend of mine from southern TW said she once went to visit an old Hoklo couple in the Toatiutia 大稲埕 district of Old Taipak. Their house was set up and decked out in full-on, old-school Japanese fashion. The gentleman refused to speak any language but Japanese, even though my friend didn't speak or understand it. My friend would speak in Hoklo and the gentleman would reply in Japanese, and then his wife would translate what he said into Hoklo. This would've been around the turn of the century, around the year 2000, fifty+ years after the Japanese left.

[SimL]

Their house was set up and decked out in full-on, old-school Japanese fashion. The gentleman refused to speak any language but Japanese, even though my friend didn't speak or understand it. My friend would speak in Hoklo and the gentleman would reply in Japanese, and then his wife would translate what he said into Hoklo.

Amazing! Thank you for sharing this information. That's far more extreme than the case I mentioned of the mid-30's guy. I would find that sort of chauvinism (the older man's) "questionable" even from a Japanese person!

This would've been around the turn of the century, around the year 2000, fifty+ years after the Japanese left.

I'm so old that it hasn't yet fully dawned on me that 2000 could possibly be "the turn of the century" .

[FutureSpy]

I never thought Japanese rule would have such a huge impact on Taiwanese people (specially the elder ones).

The old lady I know in her 70's likes to sing Enka songs (she always compete on local competitions and still take classes) and she told me she likes Japanese culture, but that's all. Considering most Taiwanese Hokkien songs are influenced by Enka, I don't think it's that weird that he likes Enka. I always thought she spoke Japanese 'cos she learned it at school. That's partially true, but since she spoke Taiwanese at home (that makes her no 國語家庭, I guess), she forgot it and relearned after coming to Brazil and hanging out with Japanese people here. According to her, she finished 1st grade in Japanese, but then from 2nd grade on teaching medium suddenly changed to Mandarin w/o any transitions, so it was very confusing for her. But she doesn't seem obsessed about Japan at all. She even taught her kids Hokkien, and that's the language they speak at home (her kids don't speak Mandarin). There was also an Hakka old lady older than her who's always at the Taiwanese Association, and seems to speak some Japanese too (at least, she greeted me in Japanese a few times), but I don't know anything about her...

And there's also the Tainan Taiwanese's dad, who's over 90 now. As soon as he knew I was Japanese he tried on a few sentences, but then he told me he could speak Japanese before 'cos he had forgotten it. So he sang me a lot of Japanese songs (probably children songs). I was happy 'cos he even cared to change to Japanese (he speaks only Taiwanese), although I still can't help feeling a little bad about all that... Anyway, I'm yet to meet a Taiwanese obsessed about Japan (I hope I won't come across to any in lifetime).

BTW, just out of curiosity: what was the nationality of people in Malaysia during British rule? Were they ever considered British?

[Yeleixingfeng]

RE: Amhoanna

Yes, they listen to Indonesian music. Personally, Indo-music is more pleasant to the ears, but as with Malaysian Malay songs, they kinda lack a specific climax point, or an emotional-breakout chorus - the songs are usually too fluid and remains such throughout. Then again, musical preference differ with culture. Just voicing my observation. ^.^

RE: FutureSpy

>Are 眞島 and 真島 pronounced differently?

>Yes, Chinese do consider ourselves as Chinese, including the English-educated, although we identify ourselves as Malaysian outside of Malaysia. I wonder if Japanese is taught openly in Brazil? Because here Chinese is taught as a subject in school, and we converse in Sinitic languages among ourselves, so that might be the fundamental reason for Chinese to separately be recognised as another race. We never mixed with the Malays well enough - there is always a barrier. (I'm sorry if anyone is offended here...) There are quite a number of Malay habits that we consider rude and sometimes, disgusting. It is not about eating with hands or the like, it is their lifestyle. I won't explain further than this, but.. You get the idea. >.< (No one side is to be blamed for, though.) That too is one very strong reason for the barrier.