Hanji pronunciations in Taiwanese

[Ah-bin]

Last weekend I started making lists of Hokkien-Mandarin correspondences (a sort of Swadesh-list thing). I haven't got very far, and I'm planning on keeping it quite simple. It's going to take quite a while (a few weeks definitely). When it's ready I'll post here.

Just to save you a bit of time Sim, here is an Appendix to my MA thesis, in which I did much the same thing. I didn't really know much Hokkien or Japanese back then (ten years ago), so there may be a fwe mistakes. Also I've just copied and pasted it in, so the formatting has gone a bit funny. It's fun to count how many cognates the two "languages" dutch and English, share at a basic level, compared to the two "dialects". The Japanese is there as an example of how non cognate vocabulary can "be written the same but pronounced differently" going by script alone.

APPENDIX II
COMPARISON OF BASIC VOCABULARY IN ENGLISH, DUTCH, MANDARIN, Southern Min AND JAPANESE

Explanation:
Swadesh’s diagnostic chart is used in the following way: The non-complex lexical item which corresponds most closely to each meaning in the basic list is selected as the form for comparison. Therefore, although Mandarin does share cognate vocabulary with Southern Min, such as soè 細 meaning “tiny” or “small”, the ordinary word in Mandarin for the concept “small” 小 is not a cognate. Similarly, the word “hound” cognate with Dutch “hond” does exist in English, but since the ordinary word for the concept is “dog”, it has been counted as a non-cognate form. Where Southern Min and Mandarin words share one morpheme, I have counted them as cognates. Dutch words that are not cognate with English, and Southern Min words that are not cognate with Mandarin are marked with an asterisk *. Words in Japanese with a cognate graphic form with Mandarin (excluding kana) are marked with a dagger†.

English Dutch Mandarin Southern Min Japanese
1. I ik 我-wo 我-goá 私-watashi
2. you jij 你-ni 汝-lí 貴方-anata
3. we wij 我們-wo-mên *阮-goán 私達-watashitachi
4. this dit 這-chê *□-chit 此-ko-
5. that dat 那-na *□-hit 其-so-
6. who wie 誰-shei *啥儂-siaⁿ-lâng †誰-dare
7. what wat 什麼-shên-mo *啥物-siáⁿ-mih 何-nani
8. not niet 不-pu *毋-m (no separate word)
9. all alle 都-tou *攏-lóng 皆-mina
10. many *veel 多-to *儕-chē †多い-oi
11. one een 一-i 一-chit †一つ-hitotsu
12. two twee 二-erh 二-jī †二つ-futatsu
13. big *groot 大-ta 大-toā †大きい-ookii
14. long lang 長-ch’ang 長-tng †長い-nagai
15. small *klein 小-hsiao *細-soè †小い-chiisai
16. man man 男的-nan-tê *查夫-cha-po• †男の子-otokonoko
17. woman *vrouw 女的-nü-tê * 查姥-cha-bó• †女の子-onnanoko
18. person *mens 人-jên *儂-lâng †人-hito
19. fish vis 魚-yü 魚仔-hî-á †魚-sakana
20. bird *vogel 鳥-niao 鳥仔-tiâu-á †鳥-tori
21. dog *hond 狗-kou 狗-káu 犬-inu
22. louse luis 蝨子-shih-tzŭ 蝨母-sat-bú †蝨-shirami
23. tree *boom 樹-shu 樹仔-chhiū-á 木-ki
24. seed zaad 種子-chung-tzŭ 種子-chéng-chí †種-tane
25. leaf *blad 葉-yeh 葉-hioh †葉-ha
26. root *wortel 根-kên 根-kun †根-ne
27. bark *schors 樹皮-shu-p’i 樹皮-chhiū-phê †樹皮-jūhi
28. skin *huid 皮膚-p’i-fu 皮膚-phê-hū 肌-hada
29. flesh vlees 肉-jou *□-bah †肉-niku
30. blood bloed 血-hsieh 血-hoeh †血-chi
31. bone been 骨頭-ku-t’ou 骨頭-kut-thâu †骨-hone
32. grease *vet 油 油-iû †油-abura
33. egg ei 蛋-tan *卵-nng 卵-tamago
34. horn horn 角-chiao 角-kak †角-tsuno
35. tail *staart 尾巴-wei-pa 尾-bóe †尻尾-shippo
36. feather veder 羽毛-yü-mao *翼-sit †羽-hane
37. hair haar 頭髮-t’ou-fa *頭毛-thâu-mng †髮-kami
38. head hoofd 頭-t’ou 頭殼-thâu-khak †頭-atama
39. ear oor 耳朵-erh-to 耳-hīⁿ †耳-mimi
40. eye oog 眼睛-yen-ching *目睭-bak-chiu 目-me
41. nose neus 鼻子-pi-tzŭ 鼻-phīⁿ †鼻-hana
42. mouth mond 嘴巴-tsui-pa *喙-chhúi 口-kuchi
43. tooth tand 牙齒-ya-ch’ih *齒-khí †齒-ha
44. tongue tong 舌頭-shê-t’ou 舌-chih †舌-shita
45. claw klauw 爪-chao 爪-jiáuⁿ †爪-tsume
46. foot voet 腳-chiao *骹/跤-kha 足-ashi
47. knee knie 膝蓋 *骹/跤頭窩-kha-thâu-u †膝-hiza
48. hand hand 手-shou 手-chiú †手-te
49. belly *buik 肚子-tu-tzŭ 腹肚-pak-tó• 腹-hara
50. neck nek 脖子-po-tzū *頷滾-ām-kún 首-kubi
51. breasts borst 胸部-hsiung-pu 胸崁-hēng-khám †胸-mune
52. heart hart 心-hsin 心-sim †心-kokoro
53. liver lever 肝-kan 肝-koaⁿ †肝-kimo
54. drink drinken 喝-hê *啉-lîm 飲む-nomu
55. eat eten 吃-chih *食-chiah 食べる-taberu
56. bite bijten 咬-yao *□-kā 嚙む-kamu
57. see zien 看-k’an 看-khoàⁿ 見る-miru
58. hear horen 聽-t’ing 聽-thiaⁿ 聞く-kiku
59. know *weten 知道-chih-tao 知影-chai-iáⁿ †知る-shiru
60. sleep slapen 睡覺-shui-chiao *睏-khùn 眠る-nemuru
61. die *sterven 死-szŭ 死-sí †死ぬ-shinu
62. kill *doden 殺-sha *刣-thâi †殺す-korosu
63. swim zwemmen 游泳-yu-yung *泅-siû †泳ぐ-oyogu
64. fly vliegen 飛-fei 飛-pe †飛ぶ-tobu
65. walk *lopen 走-tsou *行-kiâⁿ 步く-aruku
66. come komen 來-lai 來-lâi †來る-kuru
67. lie liggen 躺-t’ang *倒-tó 橫たわる-yokotawaru
68. sit zitten 坐-tso 坐-chē 座る-suwaru
69. stand staan 站-chan *徛-khiā 立つ-tatsu
70. give geven 給-kei *□-hō• 與る-ataeru
71. say zeggen 說-shuo *講-kóng 言う-iiu
72. sun zon 太陽-t’ai-yang *日頭-jit-thâu †太陽-taiyō
73. moon maan 月亮-yüeh-liang *月娘-goeh-niû †月-tsuki
74. star ster 星星-hsing-hsing 星-chhiⁿ †星-hoshi
75. water water 水-shui 水-chuí †水-mizu
76. rain regen 雨-yü 雨-hō• †雨-ame
77. stone steen 石頭-shih-t’ou 石-chioh †石-ishi
78. sand zand 沙-sha 沙-soa 砂-suna
79. earth aard 土-t’u *塗-thô• †土-tsuchi
80. cloud *wolk 雲-yun 雲-hûn †雲-kumo
81. smoke *rook 煙-yen *薰-hun †煙-kemuri
82. fire vuur 火-huo 火-hoé †火-hi
83. ash as 灰-hui 灰-hu †灰-hai
84. burn verbranden 燒-shao *焚-hiâⁿ 燃る-moeru
85. path pad 路-lu 路-lō• 小道-komichi
86. mountain *berg 山-shan 山-soaⁿ †山-yama
87. red rood 紅-hung 紅-âng 赤い-akai
88. green groen 綠-lü 綠-lek 青い-aoi
89. yellow geel 黃-huang 黃-ng †黃い-kiiroi
90. white wit 白-pai 白-peh †白い-shiroi
91. black *zwart 黑-hei *烏-o• †黑い-kuroi
92. night nacht 晚上-wan-shang *暝時-mî-sî 夜-yoru
93. hot heet 熱-jê 熱-joah †熱い-atsui
94. cold koud 冷-lêng *寒-koaⁿ 寒い-samui
95. full vol 滿-man 滿-moá 一杯-ippai
96. new nieuw 新-hsin 新-sin †新い-atarashii
97. good goed 好-hao 好-hó 良い-ii
98. round rond 圓-yüan 圓-oân 丸い-marui
99. dry droog 乾-kan *□-ta †乾いている- kawaiteiru
100. name naam 名字-ming-tzŭ 名-miâ †名-na

[Ah-bin]

The list was based on Taiwanese by the way, a Pengnag list would look quite different.

Please feel free to correct it!

[Yeleixingfeng]

Just for your information, I learn Hokkien exactly as Futurespy described. I can't seem to remember a Hokkien word without knowing its etymology. I mean, learning methods might differ for people with different backgrounds but I learnt Japanese by first memorising its its On-yomi and then only its Kun-yomi. (Mostly because its onyomi is so much more predictable, as Mandarin is my first language.)
One obvious example of hanji helping in memorising Hokkien words, is JiaN正-Chhiu (Right) and to倒-chhiu (left). ThO土-hun粉 is another example.

Anyway, just sharing my method. ^^

[Mark Yong]

Hi, all,

It’s been a while - my apologies for the long absence, as I have had an acute lack of inspiration to come up with new topics, and as most of the older Forumers would know, I try not to write unless it is something meaningful (well... to me, anyway!).

I was thinking of starting off a new thread, but since this one on Hanji pronunciations came up, and Yeleixingfeng was nice enough to post something on remembering Hokkien words via etymology, I thought I might just ride on it, as a word had cropped up in my mind just yesterday.

One normally sees the word kôey (pastries) written as 糕 at almost all confectionery shops and stalls in Penang. But no matter how one reads it, the 反切 pronunciation:

《集韻》 居勞切

just doesn’t match up. So, I did a bit of digging, and came up with this (I am sure some of you already figured it out way before me, but I did a search through our Forum, and there was no mention of it in the search results, so I thought I’d put it in for good measure):

餜: 《集韻》 古火切、音果。《玉篇》 餠也。

Now, I would defer to an expert for firm verification, but from what I see, the 反切 matches up, so does the tone, and the definition “pastry” appears to be spot-on.

Of course, it kind of messes things up, because after so many years of everyone associating nìⁿ kôey with the characters 年糕, it may very well be 年餜 for the Hokkien equivalent!

Another one that I have been mulling over recently was LÒk-LÒk - the popular roadside snack where skewers of meat/vegetables are dipped in a pot of soup. It is written as 樂樂 everywhere in Penang, but something tells me it really should be 熝熝. The word is more commonly used in Cantonese, meaning “to scaled with steam or boiling water”. The character 熝 itself is not common (and from what I gather from Web searches, is still debated as the correct character for “scald”) - which, apart from Cantonese being a minority dialect in Penang, might explain why it was not used. That notwithstanding, 反切-wise:

《集韻》 盧各切、音祿。

it still renders the correct Hokkien pronunciation and tone. The complication arises because 樂 and 熝 are homonyms in Hokkien, but not in Cantonese (the latter has an -O- vs. -u- distinction between the two characters).

Not insisting that either are definitive - just my usual 本字-obsessive tendencies kicking in again!

[SimL]

Hi Ah-bin,

Thanks for your list. I may have confused the issue slightly by mentioning the term Swadesh. Indeed, the list I have in mind would be Swadesh-like, because it would involve the most basic terms of Hokkien vocabulary (these being the ones I'm familiar with). But, in contrast, I would definitely be picking the cognates in Mandarin and Hokkien, even if either had drifted hugely away in meaning. This is because I'm primarily interested in the sound correspondences, less in the meanings.

What I have in mind would also be tabulations where the sounds all match, so that one can see that the pronunciation of one family of characters in Hokkien matches one (or two or even three etc) sets of pronunciations in Mandarin (or vice versa). The one-to-many mappings come about obviously because Mandarin split one original sound or (conversely) Hokkien merged originally different sounds, or vice versa.

My most amusing example is that I never thought that "Amoy/Amng" and "Xia-Men" had anything to do with one another, until I discovered the Hokkien "(NoConsonant)-<vowel>" vs. Mandarin "x-<vowel>" correspondence, only about 2-3 years ago. [In addition to the Amoy example, I can only think of 鞋 "e"/"xie", and 下 "e"/"xia" off the top of my head; for Mandarin "x-", it's much more common to find Hokkien "s-" or "h-", but the "<NoConsonant>-" is also one of the sound correspondences.]

Hi Mark,

Always happy to see you here again .

[amhoanna]

Sim, 鄭良偉 Robert Cheng of Academia Sinica and the U. of Hawai'i put out a slew of essays and books in the 80s and 90s comparing Mandarin and Hoklo on every level. He published charts like the one you described.

He translated some of his own essays to English, and even the pieces written in Mandarin are pretty sparing, word-count-wise, so U might be able to take them on.

Recently, in a correspondence with the man, I hinted that it might be time to compare Hoklo to some other languages too, like Vietnamese or Siamese. Didn't get a reply. EQ has never been my forté.

[FutureSpy]

There are some very high frequency "vulgarisms" in almost any Hoklo kanji text. Examples:
一 / tsi̍t
人 / lâng
欲 / beh

So, if we were to write in an etymologically correct way, these couldn't be written in hanji?

Thanks for sharing your thesis, Ah-bin.

[Yeleixingfeng]

So, if we were to write in an etymologically correct way, these couldn't be written in hanji?

We can always invent new ones. Hanji is quite flexible too. ^^

[SimL]

Hi amhoanna,

Thanks for the tip. I vaguely recall his name as one of the prominant "Hokkien nationalists" but I don't know much more about him. Do you have access to most of his papers? Or should I mail him and ask? Do you have his email address?

[SimL]

We can always invent new ones. Hanji is quite flexible too. ^^

In the modern age, it's important to be able to 1. produce searchable electronic documents, and 2. communicate quickly and efficiently on the net. To do this with Chinese characters one needs to have them as standardized codepoints in Unicode.

Inventing one's own characters (aside from the fact that other people might not agree with the ones one invents, and might not know about what word they're trying to convey) has the disadvantage that they will not be standardized codepoints in Unicode.

For this reason, it's not really my preferred option.