I have attempted to set out the system of kinship terms used by my father's side of the family, who were Penang Baba Hokkiens. The system is quite similar to that used by my mother's side of the family (non-Babas, from around Amoy). I discuss the differences I know of in "footnotes".
My request to other readers is:
1. Could someone provide the Chinese characters for all these terms (that's a big request, I realise!)
2. I would be delighted to know of any other variations on the system, besides the ones I discuss. If anyone is knowledgeable about and willing to discuss the systems of other dialects (including Mandarin), I would also love to know about them. For example, I believe that:
... a) What we call plain "kO1" (father's sister) in Hokkien, is "ku2-ma2" in Cantonese.
... b) Mandarin doesn't use dedicated terms like "m2" / "cim2" for the wife of "pE4" / "cek4", but instead just uses the term for the man, with a word attached after, meaning "female".
3. PLEASE correct any of the tones I may have got wrong. I have tried to write all the tones with sandhi.
One thing I haven't discussed in detail is how the kinship system works with regard to "ranking". I just assume that readers know that "tua", "ji", "sa*", "si", etc for "first", "second", "third", "forth", etc was placed in front of various kinship terms (specifically ko1/so2, ci2; pEh4/m2, cek4/cim2, kO1/tiau*3; ku3/kim3, i5/tiau*3) in order to show the position of that particular person in the family. [ It was actually a bit more complicated than that, because these ranks were only used for brothers and sisters, and for "direct" uncles and aunts (i.e. brothers and sisters of one's parents). For cousins, and for "uncles" and "aunts" who are *cousins* of one's parents, the personal name was used instead of a rank. ] Perhaps I'll set that out explicitly in a follow up posting, if readers find this subject interesting.
So, here goes. This is the system as it was used by my family in the second half of the 20th Century.
Same generation
===============
Spouse
------
... ang1 ........................ husband
... bO2 ......................... wife
Note: other existing terms (and the "inappropriateness" of using these ones) have been discussed in another topic.
Older
-----
... ko1 ......................... elder brother (or older male cousin)
... so2 ......................... elder brother's (or older male cousin's) wife
... ci2 ......................... elder sister (or older female cousin)
... (personal name+) ko1 ........ elder sister's (or older female cousin's) husband
Note: in our family's system, there was no specific term for the husband of one's sister or older female cousin. However, whereas the a woman took her rank from her husband (e.g. the 2nd elder brother's wife would be called "ji3-so2" because the 2nd elder brother was "ji3-ko1"), the man did *not* take his rank from his wife (e.g. the 3rd elder sister's husband would *not* be called "sa*3-ko1" even though his wife was called "sa*3-ci2". Instead he would be addressed as "<personalname>-ko1", e.g. "Ah-Beng-ko1", if his personal name is Ah Beng.
This means that there was no confusion between the husband of an elder sister and an elder brother, even though they both shared the same term "ko1".
Younger
-------
... (sio1) ti3 / deh8 / leh8 .... younger brother
... (sio1) be3 .................. younger sister
Notes:
1. "deh8" / "leh8" were borrowed from the Malay word "adek" = "younger brother".
2. The term "hia*3-ti3" meant "brothers" in general. Did it perhaps even include sisters, i.e. did it mean all the "siblings"?
Cousins
-------
... piau1-ko1 ................... elder male cousin
... piau1-ci2 ................... elder female cousin
... piau1-ti3 ................... younger male cousin
... piau1-be3 ................... younger female cousin
Note: in our family's system, these terms were used for both paternal and maternal cousins. I'm told that in other (perhaps non-Penang) Hokkien families, these terms are only used for *maternal* cousins. For paternal cousins, the terms were "ke1-pak1-hia*1", "ke1-pak1-ci2", ke1-pak1-ti3", "ke1-pak1-sio-be3". The term "ke-pak" (in Penang Hokkien that would be "kue1-pak1") means "across the stomach". The implication (in a strongly patriarchal society) perhaps being that paternal cousins were only separated by a stomach, i.e. the two different wombs of the mothers, because the father's were brothers, and hence considered to be "of the same blood" (but this is just speculation on my part).
One generation apart
====================
Older
-----
Parents
... tia1 / pa5 / lau3-peh4 ...... father
... mah4 / lau3 bu2 ............. mother
Note: I think the term "pE(h)4-bo2" meant "parents" (-h is dropped in compounds, which I've mentioned in another thread).
Father's side
... pEh4 ........................ father's elder brother
... m2 .......................... father's elder brother's wife
... cek4 ........................ father's younger brother
... cim2 ........................ father's younger brother's wife
... kO1 ......................... father's sister
... tiau*3 ...................... father's sister's husband
Note: in our family's system, no distinction was made between the father's sister's husband, and the mother's sister's husband. They were both simply tiau*3. In other (perhaps non-Penang) Hokkien families, the former was "kO3-tiau*3", and the latter "i3-tiau*3". [ To be more accurate: "kO1-tiu*3" / "i3-tiu*3", in a more Amoy like pronunciation, with slighly different sandhi for the former term. ]
Mother's side
... ku3 ......................... mother's brother
... kim3 ........................ mother's brother's wife
... i5 .......................... mother's sister
... tiau*3 ...................... mother's sister's husband
Note: see note on father's sister's husband above.
Younger
-------
... kia*2 ....................... child (either sex)
... hau3-sE*1 (ta3-pO3 kia*2) ... son / male child
... cau1-a2 (ca3-bO1 kia*2) ..... daughter / female child
Note: in our family's system, kia*2 meant a child of either sex, but in other (perhaps non-Penang) Hokkien families, it meant specifically male children only.
... sun1 ........................ nephew / niece (i.e. either sex)
Note: in our family's system, no distinction was made between nephews/nieces on the one hand, and grandchildren on the other. They are all called "sun1". In other (perhaps non-Penang) Hokkien families, the former were called "sun1-a2", and the latter "sun1".
Two generations apart
=====================
Older
-----
Father's side
... (lai3-)kOng1 ................ paternal grandfather
... (lai3-)ma2 .................. paternal grandmother
Mother's side
... (gua3-)kOng1 ................ maternal grandfather
... (gua3-)ma2 .................. maternal grandmother
Notes:
1. Uncles of one's parents were called whatever one's parents called them, with the word -kOng1 added. e.g. If one's father had a 3rd uncle "sa*3-cek4", then this was one's "sa*3-cek8-kOng1"; if one's mother had a 2nd aunt's husband "ji3-tiau*3", then this would be one's "ji3-tiau*3-kOng1". I presume this is the same character as for "grandfather".
2. In our family's system, aunts of one's parents were called whatever one's parents called them, with the word -po5 added. e.g. If one's father had a 4th aunt "si1-i5", then this was one's "si1-i3-po5"; if one's mother had a 1st uncle's wife "tua3-m2", then this would be one's "tua3-m1-po5". In other (perhaps non-Penang) Hokkien families, the word was "-ma2". I presumable this is the same character as for "grandmother" (e.g. "si1-i3-ma2" / "tua3-m1-ma2" instead of "si1-i3-po5" / "tua3-m1-po5".
Younger
-------
... (lai3-)sun1 ................. paternal grandchild (either sex)
... (gua3-)sun1 ................. maternal grandchild (either sex)
Three generations apart
=======================
Older
-----
... cO2 ......................... great-grandfather
... (ca3-bO1-)cO2 ............... great-grandmother
Note: this was the only known term in our family's system. In other (perhaps non-Penang) Hokkien families, the term for "great-grandfather" was "thai1-kOng1" and for "great-grandmother" was "thai1-ma2".
Younger
-------
... ??? ......................... great-grandchild
Note: I'm not aware of the word for "great-grandchild" in our family's system. In other (perhaps non-Penang) Hokkien families, the term for "great-grandchild" was apparently "thai1-sun1".
In-laws
=======
Older
-----
Parents-in-law of a man
... tiau*3-lang5 ................ father-in-law (of the husband/man)
... tiau*3-m2 ................... mother-in-law (of the husband/man)
Parents-in-law of a woman
... un1-kua*1 ................... father-in-law (of the wife/woman)
... niau*5 ...................... mother-in-law (of the wife/woman)
Note: in our family's system these were the only known terms for the parents-in-law of a woman. In other (perhaps non-Penang) Hokkien families, the term for such a "father-in-law" was "ta1-ke1" and for "mother-in-law" was "ta1-kua*1".
Younger
-------
... kia*1-sai3 ................. son-in-law
... sim3-pu3 ................... daughter-in-law
Same generation
---------------
... cheng3-kE1 ................. father of one's son-in-law or daughter-in-law
... chE*3-m2 .................... mother of one's son-in-law or daughter-in-law
[%sig%]
Hokkien kinship terms
-
Dylan Sung
Re: Hokkien kinship terms
Drawing a family tree of terms is, I find, easier to figure out the relationships between kith and kin, like the one I've done for my own Hakka dialect.
http://www.sungwh.freeserve.co.uk/hakga/family.htm
Dyl.
http://www.sungwh.freeserve.co.uk/hakga/family.htm
Dyl.
-
Andrew Yong
Re: Hokkien kinship terms
Sim wrote:
> ... ang1 ........................ husband
I have seen both 公 and 翁. The former is inconvenient, for obvious reasons.
> ... bO2 ......................... wife
> ... ko1 ......................... elder brother (or older male
> cousin)
哥
> ... so2 ......................... elder brother's (or older
> male cousin's) wife
嫂
> ... ci2 ......................... elder sister (or older female
> cousin)
姊
> ... (personal name+) ko1 ........ elder sister's (or older
> female cousin's) husband
> ... (sio1) ti3 / deh8 / leh8 .... younger brother
小弟. The second and third are from 'adik'
> ... (sio1) be3 .................. younger sister
I am surprised you use an Amoy Hokkien pronunciation in Penang. I have only heard sio2-moai3 小妹
> 2. The term "hia*3-ti3" meant "brothers" in general. Did it
> perhaps even include sisters, i.e. did it mean all the
> "siblings"?
兄弟. No, though my dictionary says they can be male cousins of the same surname, or even metaphorical brothers.
> Cousins
> -------
>
> ... piau1-ko1 ................... elder male cousin
> ... piau1-ci2 ................... elder female cousin
> ... piau1-ti3 ................... younger male cousin
> ... piau1-be3 ................... younger female cousin
>
> Note: in our family's system, these terms were used for both
> paternal and maternal cousins. I'm told that in other (perhaps
> non-Penang) Hokkien families, these terms are only used for
> *maternal* cousins. For paternal cousins, the terms were
> "ke1-pak1-hia*1", "ke1-pak1-ci2", ke1-pak1-ti3",
> "ke1-pak1-sio-be3". The term "ke-pak" (in Penang Hokkien that
> would be "kue1-pak1") means "across the stomach". The
> implication (in a strongly patriarchal society) perhaps being
> that paternal cousins were only separated by a stomach, i.e.
> the two different wombs of the mothers, because the father's
> were brothers, and hence considered to be "of the same blood"
> (but this is just speculation on my part).
For me, there is a distinction between ku3-piau2 and i5-piau2, being paternal and maternal cousins respectively. Generally both types of cousins were just called ko1 or ci2 etc. without any distinction. But my dictionary says it refers to maternal cousins.
>
> One generation apart
> ====================
>
> Older
> -----
>
> Parents
>
> ... tia1 / pa5 / lau3-peh4 ...... father
爹, 爸, 老父. Apparently it is lau7-pE7, not pEh4. I used to make the same mistake.
> ... mah4 / lau3 bu2 ............. mother
媽, 老母. Perhaps mah4 is Malay, or borrowed from other dialects. It does not appear in Douglas' dictionary.
> Note: I think the term "pE(h)4-bo2" meant "parents" (-h is
> dropped in compounds, which I've mentioned in another thread).
>
> Father's side
>
> ... pEh4 ........................ father's elder brother
伯
> ... m2 .......................... father's elder brother's wife
姆
>
> ... cek4 ........................ father's younger brother
叔
> ... cim2 ........................ father's younger brother's
嬸
> wife
>
> ... kO1 ......................... father's sister
姑
> ... tiau*3 ...................... father's sister's husband
丈
> Note: in our family's system, no distinction was made between
> the father's sister's husband, and the mother's sister's
> husband. They were both simply tiau*3. In other (perhaps
> non-Penang) Hokkien families, the former was "kO3-tiau*3", and
> the latter "i3-tiau*3". [ To be more accurate: "kO1-tiu*3" /
> "i3-tiu*3", in a more Amoy like pronunciation, with slighly
> different sandhi for the former term. ]
Have you noticed many words can be pronounced in two ways in Penang Hokkien, e.g. tiO/tiau?
>
> Mother's side
>
> ... ku3 ......................... mother's brother
舅
> ... kim3 ........................ mother's brother's wife
妗
> ... i5 .......................... mother's sister
姨
> ... tiau*3 ...................... mother's sister's husband
>
> Note: see note on father's sister's husband above.
>
>
> Younger
> -------
>
> ... kia*2 ....................... child (either sex)
囝
> ... hau3-sE*1 (ta3-pO3 kia*2) ... son / male child
後生
> ... cau1-a2 (ca3-bO1 kia*2) ..... daughter / female child
??
> Note: in our family's system, kia*2 meant a child of either
> sex, but in other (perhaps non-Penang) Hokkien families, it
> meant specifically male children only.
It's more traditional families generally.
> ... sun1 ........................ nephew / niece (i.e. either
> sex)
孫
> Note: in our family's system, no distinction was made between
> nephews/nieces on the one hand, and grandchildren on the other.
> They are all called "sun1". In other (perhaps non-Penang)
> Hokkien families, the former were called "sun1-a2", and the
> latter "sun1".
>
>
> Two generations apart
> =====================
>
> Older
> -----
>
> Father's side
>
> ... (lai3-)kOng1 ................ paternal grandfather
裡公
> ... (lai3-)ma2 .................. paternal grandmother
裡嬷. Douglas uses 媽, but this is easily confused with mother.
> Mother's side
>
> ... (gua3-)kOng1 ................ maternal grandfather
外公
> ... (gua3-)ma2 .................. maternal grandmother
外嬷
> Notes:
>
> 1. Uncles of one's parents were called whatever one's parents
> called them, with the word -kOng1 added. e.g. If one's father
> had a 3rd uncle "sa*3-cek4", then this was one's
> "sa*3-cek8-kOng1"; if one's mother had a 2nd aunt's husband
> "ji3-tiau*3", then this would be one's "ji3-tiau*3-kOng1". I
> presume this is the same character as for "grandfather".
>
> 2. In our family's system, aunts of one's parents were called
> whatever one's parents called them, with the word -po5 added.
> e.g. If one's father had a 4th aunt "si1-i5", then this was
> one's "si1-i3-po5"; if one's mother had a 1st uncle's wife
> "tua3-m2", then this would be one's "tua3-m1-po5". In other
> (perhaps non-Penang) Hokkien families, the word was "-ma2". I
> presumable this is the same character as for "grandmother"
> (e.g. "si1-i3-ma2" / "tua3-m1-ma2" instead of "si1-i3-po5" /
> "tua3-m1-po5".
>
>
> Younger
> -------
>
> ... (lai3-)sun1 ................. paternal grandchild (either
> sex)
> ... (gua3-)sun1 ................. maternal grandchild (either
> sex)
>
>
> Three generations apart
> =======================
>
> Older
> -----
>
> ... cO2 ......................... great-grandfather
祖
> ... (ca3-bO1-)cO2 ............... great-grandmother
>
> Note: this was the only known term in our family's system. In
> other (perhaps non-Penang) Hokkien families, the term for
> "great-grandfather" was "thai1-kOng1" and for
> "great-grandmother" was "thai1-ma2".
>
>
> Younger
> -------
>
> ... ??? ......................... great-grandchild
>
> Note: I'm not aware of the word for "great-grandchild" in our
> family's system. In other (perhaps non-Penang) Hokkien
> families, the term for "great-grandchild" was apparently
> "thai1-sun1".
>
>
>
> In-laws
> =======
>
> Older
> -----
>
> Parents-in-law of a man
>
> ... tiau*3-lang5 ................ father-in-law (of the
??
> husband/man)
> ... tiau*3-m2 ................... mother-in-law (of the
> husband/man)
>
> Parents-in-law of a woman
>
> ... un1-kua*1 ................... father-in-law (of the
> wife/woman)
??
> ... niau*5 ...................... mother-in-law (of the
> wife/woman)
娘
> Note: in our family's system these were the only known terms
> for the parents-in-law of a woman. In other (perhaps
> non-Penang) Hokkien families, the term for such a
> "father-in-law" was "ta1-ke1" and for "mother-in-law" was
> "ta1-kua*1".
??
>
> Younger
> -------
>
> ... kia*1-sai3 ................. son-in-law
> ... sim3-pu3 ................... daughter-in-law
>
>
> Same generation
> ---------------
>
> ... cheng3-kE1 ................. father of one's son-in-law or
> daughter-in-law
親家
> ... chE*3-m2 .................... mother of one's son-in-law or
> daughter-in-law
??
> ... ang1 ........................ husband
I have seen both 公 and 翁. The former is inconvenient, for obvious reasons.
> ... bO2 ......................... wife
> ... ko1 ......................... elder brother (or older male
> cousin)
哥
> ... so2 ......................... elder brother's (or older
> male cousin's) wife
嫂
> ... ci2 ......................... elder sister (or older female
> cousin)
姊
> ... (personal name+) ko1 ........ elder sister's (or older
> female cousin's) husband
> ... (sio1) ti3 / deh8 / leh8 .... younger brother
小弟. The second and third are from 'adik'
> ... (sio1) be3 .................. younger sister
I am surprised you use an Amoy Hokkien pronunciation in Penang. I have only heard sio2-moai3 小妹
> 2. The term "hia*3-ti3" meant "brothers" in general. Did it
> perhaps even include sisters, i.e. did it mean all the
> "siblings"?
兄弟. No, though my dictionary says they can be male cousins of the same surname, or even metaphorical brothers.
> Cousins
> -------
>
> ... piau1-ko1 ................... elder male cousin
> ... piau1-ci2 ................... elder female cousin
> ... piau1-ti3 ................... younger male cousin
> ... piau1-be3 ................... younger female cousin
>
> Note: in our family's system, these terms were used for both
> paternal and maternal cousins. I'm told that in other (perhaps
> non-Penang) Hokkien families, these terms are only used for
> *maternal* cousins. For paternal cousins, the terms were
> "ke1-pak1-hia*1", "ke1-pak1-ci2", ke1-pak1-ti3",
> "ke1-pak1-sio-be3". The term "ke-pak" (in Penang Hokkien that
> would be "kue1-pak1") means "across the stomach". The
> implication (in a strongly patriarchal society) perhaps being
> that paternal cousins were only separated by a stomach, i.e.
> the two different wombs of the mothers, because the father's
> were brothers, and hence considered to be "of the same blood"
> (but this is just speculation on my part).
For me, there is a distinction between ku3-piau2 and i5-piau2, being paternal and maternal cousins respectively. Generally both types of cousins were just called ko1 or ci2 etc. without any distinction. But my dictionary says it refers to maternal cousins.
>
> One generation apart
> ====================
>
> Older
> -----
>
> Parents
>
> ... tia1 / pa5 / lau3-peh4 ...... father
爹, 爸, 老父. Apparently it is lau7-pE7, not pEh4. I used to make the same mistake.
> ... mah4 / lau3 bu2 ............. mother
媽, 老母. Perhaps mah4 is Malay, or borrowed from other dialects. It does not appear in Douglas' dictionary.
> Note: I think the term "pE(h)4-bo2" meant "parents" (-h is
> dropped in compounds, which I've mentioned in another thread).
>
> Father's side
>
> ... pEh4 ........................ father's elder brother
伯
> ... m2 .......................... father's elder brother's wife
姆
>
> ... cek4 ........................ father's younger brother
叔
> ... cim2 ........................ father's younger brother's
嬸
> wife
>
> ... kO1 ......................... father's sister
姑
> ... tiau*3 ...................... father's sister's husband
丈
> Note: in our family's system, no distinction was made between
> the father's sister's husband, and the mother's sister's
> husband. They were both simply tiau*3. In other (perhaps
> non-Penang) Hokkien families, the former was "kO3-tiau*3", and
> the latter "i3-tiau*3". [ To be more accurate: "kO1-tiu*3" /
> "i3-tiu*3", in a more Amoy like pronunciation, with slighly
> different sandhi for the former term. ]
Have you noticed many words can be pronounced in two ways in Penang Hokkien, e.g. tiO/tiau?
>
> Mother's side
>
> ... ku3 ......................... mother's brother
舅
> ... kim3 ........................ mother's brother's wife
妗
> ... i5 .......................... mother's sister
姨
> ... tiau*3 ...................... mother's sister's husband
>
> Note: see note on father's sister's husband above.
>
>
> Younger
> -------
>
> ... kia*2 ....................... child (either sex)
囝
> ... hau3-sE*1 (ta3-pO3 kia*2) ... son / male child
後生
> ... cau1-a2 (ca3-bO1 kia*2) ..... daughter / female child
??
> Note: in our family's system, kia*2 meant a child of either
> sex, but in other (perhaps non-Penang) Hokkien families, it
> meant specifically male children only.
It's more traditional families generally.
> ... sun1 ........................ nephew / niece (i.e. either
> sex)
孫
> Note: in our family's system, no distinction was made between
> nephews/nieces on the one hand, and grandchildren on the other.
> They are all called "sun1". In other (perhaps non-Penang)
> Hokkien families, the former were called "sun1-a2", and the
> latter "sun1".
>
>
> Two generations apart
> =====================
>
> Older
> -----
>
> Father's side
>
> ... (lai3-)kOng1 ................ paternal grandfather
裡公
> ... (lai3-)ma2 .................. paternal grandmother
裡嬷. Douglas uses 媽, but this is easily confused with mother.
> Mother's side
>
> ... (gua3-)kOng1 ................ maternal grandfather
外公
> ... (gua3-)ma2 .................. maternal grandmother
外嬷
> Notes:
>
> 1. Uncles of one's parents were called whatever one's parents
> called them, with the word -kOng1 added. e.g. If one's father
> had a 3rd uncle "sa*3-cek4", then this was one's
> "sa*3-cek8-kOng1"; if one's mother had a 2nd aunt's husband
> "ji3-tiau*3", then this would be one's "ji3-tiau*3-kOng1". I
> presume this is the same character as for "grandfather".
>
> 2. In our family's system, aunts of one's parents were called
> whatever one's parents called them, with the word -po5 added.
> e.g. If one's father had a 4th aunt "si1-i5", then this was
> one's "si1-i3-po5"; if one's mother had a 1st uncle's wife
> "tua3-m2", then this would be one's "tua3-m1-po5". In other
> (perhaps non-Penang) Hokkien families, the word was "-ma2". I
> presumable this is the same character as for "grandmother"
> (e.g. "si1-i3-ma2" / "tua3-m1-ma2" instead of "si1-i3-po5" /
> "tua3-m1-po5".
>
>
> Younger
> -------
>
> ... (lai3-)sun1 ................. paternal grandchild (either
> sex)
> ... (gua3-)sun1 ................. maternal grandchild (either
> sex)
>
>
> Three generations apart
> =======================
>
> Older
> -----
>
> ... cO2 ......................... great-grandfather
祖
> ... (ca3-bO1-)cO2 ............... great-grandmother
>
> Note: this was the only known term in our family's system. In
> other (perhaps non-Penang) Hokkien families, the term for
> "great-grandfather" was "thai1-kOng1" and for
> "great-grandmother" was "thai1-ma2".
>
>
> Younger
> -------
>
> ... ??? ......................... great-grandchild
>
> Note: I'm not aware of the word for "great-grandchild" in our
> family's system. In other (perhaps non-Penang) Hokkien
> families, the term for "great-grandchild" was apparently
> "thai1-sun1".
>
>
>
> In-laws
> =======
>
> Older
> -----
>
> Parents-in-law of a man
>
> ... tiau*3-lang5 ................ father-in-law (of the
??
> husband/man)
> ... tiau*3-m2 ................... mother-in-law (of the
> husband/man)
>
> Parents-in-law of a woman
>
> ... un1-kua*1 ................... father-in-law (of the
> wife/woman)
??
> ... niau*5 ...................... mother-in-law (of the
> wife/woman)
娘
> Note: in our family's system these were the only known terms
> for the parents-in-law of a woman. In other (perhaps
> non-Penang) Hokkien families, the term for such a
> "father-in-law" was "ta1-ke1" and for "mother-in-law" was
> "ta1-kua*1".
??
>
> Younger
> -------
>
> ... kia*1-sai3 ................. son-in-law
> ... sim3-pu3 ................... daughter-in-law
>
>
> Same generation
> ---------------
>
> ... cheng3-kE1 ................. father of one's son-in-law or
> daughter-in-law
親家
> ... chE*3-m2 .................... mother of one's son-in-law or
> daughter-in-law
??
-
Sim
Re: Hokkien kinship terms
Dylan:
=====
Thank you for the reference to your chart, which is very detailed. I will print it out and examine it to compare the two systems.
Andrew:
======
Thank you VERY VERY MUCH for taking the trouble to enter these characters on the forum! I really appreciate it.
>> > ... (sio1) ti3 / deh8 / leh8 .... younger brother
>> 小弟. The second and third are from 'adik'
Correct. I forgot to say this. The "clue" is that one of the forms begins with a "d-", which is often a hint that it's adopted from Malay. The "d-" vs "l-" vs. "dz-" thing has been discussed in another thread.
>> > ... (sio1) be3 .................. younger sister
>> I am surprised you use an Amoy Hokkien pronunciation in Penang.
>> I have only heard sio2-moai3 小妹
Indeed, a slip-up on my part!! I was getting my maternal relatives mixed up with my paternal relatives. You are 100% correct, and the word in Penang for younger sister is indeed what you say, although I myself pronounce it "sio1-mOi3". Curious that we use a different tone for "sio".
>> For me, there is a distinction between ku3-piau2 and i5-piau2,
>> being paternal and maternal cousins respectively.
I wasn't aware of these two terms at all. Do you know the characters for "piau", "ku", and "i"? I presume "i" is the same as in "mother's sister", 姨.
>> > ... mah4 / lau3 bu2 ............. mother
>> 媽, 老母. Perhaps mah4 is Malay, or borrowed from other dialects.
>> It does not appear in Douglas' dictionary.
Yes, I've always suspected this, because of the similarity. The full form in Malay is "emak" and the informal form "mak", where in both cases, the final "-k" is a glottal stop. [ I realise that you of course know this - I only say this for the benefit of non-Malaysian / Singaporean / Indonesian readers ].
I find it interesting that the *term* for mother in Penang Hokkien can be "lau3 bu2", but the mother is never addressed as "bu2". On my mother's side (the Amoy people), my mother actually *addressed* her mother as "a-bu2" (which as a child I found extremely peculiar!).
>> Have you noticed many words can be pronounced in two ways in
>> Penang Hokkien, e.g. tiO/tiau?
No Andrew, I was not familiar with "tiO". But then I left Penang when I was 14, so didn't really have that much exposure to these kinship terms outside my extended family at an age when I might have been more interested in noticing the differences.
>> > ... cau1-a2 (ca3-bO1 kia*2) ..... daughter / female child
>> ??
So you don't know the characters for this one.
I have a slightly amusing story about this word actually. For years, I have mentally spelled it "ca-wa", and considered it a slightly odd word, because Hokkien doesn't really have "w-". When I was writing up the original posting, I first had "ca-wa", and then modified it to "ca-ua". But this felt even stranger, because I didn't feel even the slightest bit of glottal stop before the "-ua". Finally, I had my little insight: that the w/u might actually belong to the previous syllable, resulting in my solution of spelling it "cau-a" (perhaps the "-a" is the "a"-diminutive particle). I'm very pleased with this solution, as a word like "cau-a" would of course be pronounced, in effect, "cawa".
Andrew: you don't have a word for "great-grandchild" either? Curious. I always thought that I didn't know it because my great-grandmother died long before I was born, and my great-grandfather when I was about 7. So I knew what to call *him*, but there was no reason for me as a 7 year-old to know how he referred to his great-grandchildren. Perhaps that is the same reason you don't know the term as well.
Everyone else
=============
Well, after Andrew's great effort, there are only a number of terms with no characters. Anyone else know them?:
... bO2 ......................... wife
... cau1-a2 (ca3-bO1 kia*2) ..... daughter / female child
... -kOng1 ...................... suffix indicating brother or male cousin of
... ............................. one's grandparents. I suppose this is 公,
... ............................. the same word as "grandfather".
... -po5 ........................ suffix indicating sister or female cousin of
... ............................. one's grandparents. BTW: this is also a
... ............................. general term for an old lady. "bo3-gE3-po5" is
... ............................. a rather insulting term for a "toothless old woman".
... -ma2 ........................ equivalent to -po5. I suppose this is 嬷,
... ............................. the same word as "grandmother".
... ??? ......................... great-grandchild
... tiau*3-lang5 ................ father-in-law (of the husband/man)
... tiau*3-m2 ................... mother-in-law (of the husband/man)
... un1-kua*1 ................... father-in-law (of the wife/woman)
... ta1-ke1 ..................... equivalent to "un1-kua*1"
... ta1-kua*1 ................... equivalent to "niau*5"
... kia*1-sai3 .................. son-in-law
... sim3-pu3 .................... daughter-in-law
... chE*3-m2 .................... mother of one's son-in-law or daughter-in-law
... gin1-a2 ..................... child
The last one above is a term I just remembered. However, I'm not sure if it's really a "kinship" term as such. It seems to mean "children" in general, i.e. young humans, as opposed to portraying the family relationship. So, it would be normal to say "sa*3-e3 gin1-a2 be1 lai5" (=three children want to come), where these are not necessarily *your* children, or *my* children - just three children in general. However, it wouldn't (to me) be incorrect to ask: "i1 u3 kui1 e3 gin1-a2?" (= how many children does he have), where it would mean specifically the biological offspring. However, perhaps this is misuse of the word. In contrast: "i1 u3 kui1 e3 kia*2" is definitely correct in this context.
[%sig%]
=====
Thank you for the reference to your chart, which is very detailed. I will print it out and examine it to compare the two systems.
Andrew:
======
Thank you VERY VERY MUCH for taking the trouble to enter these characters on the forum! I really appreciate it.
>> > ... (sio1) ti3 / deh8 / leh8 .... younger brother
>> 小弟. The second and third are from 'adik'
Correct. I forgot to say this. The "clue" is that one of the forms begins with a "d-", which is often a hint that it's adopted from Malay. The "d-" vs "l-" vs. "dz-" thing has been discussed in another thread.
>> > ... (sio1) be3 .................. younger sister
>> I am surprised you use an Amoy Hokkien pronunciation in Penang.
>> I have only heard sio2-moai3 小妹
Indeed, a slip-up on my part!! I was getting my maternal relatives mixed up with my paternal relatives. You are 100% correct, and the word in Penang for younger sister is indeed what you say, although I myself pronounce it "sio1-mOi3". Curious that we use a different tone for "sio".
>> For me, there is a distinction between ku3-piau2 and i5-piau2,
>> being paternal and maternal cousins respectively.
I wasn't aware of these two terms at all. Do you know the characters for "piau", "ku", and "i"? I presume "i" is the same as in "mother's sister", 姨.
>> > ... mah4 / lau3 bu2 ............. mother
>> 媽, 老母. Perhaps mah4 is Malay, or borrowed from other dialects.
>> It does not appear in Douglas' dictionary.
Yes, I've always suspected this, because of the similarity. The full form in Malay is "emak" and the informal form "mak", where in both cases, the final "-k" is a glottal stop. [ I realise that you of course know this - I only say this for the benefit of non-Malaysian / Singaporean / Indonesian readers ].
I find it interesting that the *term* for mother in Penang Hokkien can be "lau3 bu2", but the mother is never addressed as "bu2". On my mother's side (the Amoy people), my mother actually *addressed* her mother as "a-bu2" (which as a child I found extremely peculiar!).
>> Have you noticed many words can be pronounced in two ways in
>> Penang Hokkien, e.g. tiO/tiau?
No Andrew, I was not familiar with "tiO". But then I left Penang when I was 14, so didn't really have that much exposure to these kinship terms outside my extended family at an age when I might have been more interested in noticing the differences.
>> > ... cau1-a2 (ca3-bO1 kia*2) ..... daughter / female child
>> ??
So you don't know the characters for this one.
I have a slightly amusing story about this word actually. For years, I have mentally spelled it "ca-wa", and considered it a slightly odd word, because Hokkien doesn't really have "w-". When I was writing up the original posting, I first had "ca-wa", and then modified it to "ca-ua". But this felt even stranger, because I didn't feel even the slightest bit of glottal stop before the "-ua". Finally, I had my little insight: that the w/u might actually belong to the previous syllable, resulting in my solution of spelling it "cau-a" (perhaps the "-a" is the "a"-diminutive particle). I'm very pleased with this solution, as a word like "cau-a" would of course be pronounced, in effect, "cawa".
Andrew: you don't have a word for "great-grandchild" either? Curious. I always thought that I didn't know it because my great-grandmother died long before I was born, and my great-grandfather when I was about 7. So I knew what to call *him*, but there was no reason for me as a 7 year-old to know how he referred to his great-grandchildren. Perhaps that is the same reason you don't know the term as well.
Everyone else
=============
Well, after Andrew's great effort, there are only a number of terms with no characters. Anyone else know them?:
... bO2 ......................... wife
... cau1-a2 (ca3-bO1 kia*2) ..... daughter / female child
... -kOng1 ...................... suffix indicating brother or male cousin of
... ............................. one's grandparents. I suppose this is 公,
... ............................. the same word as "grandfather".
... -po5 ........................ suffix indicating sister or female cousin of
... ............................. one's grandparents. BTW: this is also a
... ............................. general term for an old lady. "bo3-gE3-po5" is
... ............................. a rather insulting term for a "toothless old woman".
... -ma2 ........................ equivalent to -po5. I suppose this is 嬷,
... ............................. the same word as "grandmother".
... ??? ......................... great-grandchild
... tiau*3-lang5 ................ father-in-law (of the husband/man)
... tiau*3-m2 ................... mother-in-law (of the husband/man)
... un1-kua*1 ................... father-in-law (of the wife/woman)
... ta1-ke1 ..................... equivalent to "un1-kua*1"
... ta1-kua*1 ................... equivalent to "niau*5"
... kia*1-sai3 .................. son-in-law
... sim3-pu3 .................... daughter-in-law
... chE*3-m2 .................... mother of one's son-in-law or daughter-in-law
... gin1-a2 ..................... child
The last one above is a term I just remembered. However, I'm not sure if it's really a "kinship" term as such. It seems to mean "children" in general, i.e. young humans, as opposed to portraying the family relationship. So, it would be normal to say "sa*3-e3 gin1-a2 be1 lai5" (=three children want to come), where these are not necessarily *your* children, or *my* children - just three children in general. However, it wouldn't (to me) be incorrect to ask: "i1 u3 kui1 e3 gin1-a2?" (= how many children does he have), where it would mean specifically the biological offspring. However, perhaps this is misuse of the word. In contrast: "i1 u3 kui1 e3 kia*2" is definitely correct in this context.
[%sig%]
-
hong
Re: Hokkien kinship terms
I thought cawa is teoh chew because i read in the article from china prof in the link given by kaiah in related links........
any one find it in minnan dict?
any one find it in minnan dict?
-
Andrew Yong
Re: Hokkien kinship terms
Douglas has tsau2-a2 (Chiangchew (C.)), a daughter. tsau2-a2-kia*2, id. tsau2-kia*2, id.
kong1 is 公
po5 is 婆
bO2: Barclay gives 婦, but some people colloquially use 某
chhin1-kE1 親家
chE*1-m2 親姆. See how the same word is pronounced differently
gin2-a2 (should be kin2-a2 in C.) is variously 囝仔 or 囡仔
tiO7-lang5 丈人
tiO7-m2 丈姆
Douglas gives 唐官 ta1-koa*1 (C. also toa7-koa*1) as husband's *father*. 唐家 ta1-kE1 is husband's mother. ta1-kE1-koa*1 or kE1-koa*1 as husband's father and mother.
I suspect un2-koa*1 is 允官, un2 meaning promise.
kia*2-sai3 is 囝婿
sim1-pu7 is 媳婦
kong1 is 公
po5 is 婆
bO2: Barclay gives 婦, but some people colloquially use 某
chhin1-kE1 親家
chE*1-m2 親姆. See how the same word is pronounced differently
gin2-a2 (should be kin2-a2 in C.) is variously 囝仔 or 囡仔
tiO7-lang5 丈人
tiO7-m2 丈姆
Douglas gives 唐官 ta1-koa*1 (C. also toa7-koa*1) as husband's *father*. 唐家 ta1-kE1 is husband's mother. ta1-kE1-koa*1 or kE1-koa*1 as husband's father and mother.
I suspect un2-koa*1 is 允官, un2 meaning promise.
kia*2-sai3 is 囝婿
sim1-pu7 is 媳婦
-
hong
Re: Hokkien kinship terms
I see tsau a is yet another mistake for chuan chiu people in Malaysia even though chuan chiu poeple are far more than chiang even in whole North malaysia.We only have one 76 years old chiang chiu association in Penang with no sub sects if I am not wrong.
My mother use Ah Yi for her mother where I just read from those links it is used by teochiu people from old texts.
My mother use Ah Yi for her mother where I just read from those links it is used by teochiu people from old texts.
-
Sim
Re: Hokkien kinship terms
Andrew,
Thank you for completing the list. I'll check with my mother about the "ta-kE" / "ta-kua* thing when I next speak to her. Probably I've just got the two terms mixed up (never heard them used as a child, just some stuff my mother was explaining to me, when I asked her about kinship terms in her family).
In fact, I was already very slightly doubtful about this, as "un-kua" was a male, and "ta-kua" (supposedly) a female.
Are there any other terms I may have missed out, that you remember? I think my father mentioned one: the term of address used by a brother-in-law to an elder brother-in-law (e.g. the husbands of 2 sisters living in the matriachal household). This is the one of the terms I need to check with him.
Cheers,
Sim.
[%sig%]
Thank you for completing the list. I'll check with my mother about the "ta-kE" / "ta-kua* thing when I next speak to her. Probably I've just got the two terms mixed up (never heard them used as a child, just some stuff my mother was explaining to me, when I asked her about kinship terms in her family).
In fact, I was already very slightly doubtful about this, as "un-kua" was a male, and "ta-kua" (supposedly) a female.
Are there any other terms I may have missed out, that you remember? I think my father mentioned one: the term of address used by a brother-in-law to an elder brother-in-law (e.g. the husbands of 2 sisters living in the matriachal household). This is the one of the terms I need to check with him.
Cheers,
Sim.
[%sig%]
-
Niuc
Re: Hokkien kinship terms
Hi all
These kinship terms in my accents are similar to Sim & Andrew's. However, we usually say 'hia*1' 兄 for biological brother. Personally I feel that 'hia*1' sounds more intimate than 'ko1' 哥. I tend to use 'hia*1' for biological brother and 'ko1' for others.
Usually we add the particle 'a' before many of them such as 'a' + 'kong1'/'ma8'/'pe4'/'m2'...etc. 'a' is naturalized as 'ang'/'am'/'an' for closer relationship (more intimate). Sometimes another 'a' is added at the end.
'a1 kong1' -> 'ang1 kong1 (a1)'
'a1 ma8' -> 'am1 ma8'
'a1 pa5' -> 'an2 pa5'
'a1 bu2'/'a1 bu1' -> 'am1 bu1 (a1)'
'a1 pe4' -> 'an2 pe4'
'a1 m2' -> 'an2 m2'
'a1 cik4' -> 'an2 cik4 (a3)'
'a1 cim2' -> 'an2 cim2 (a3)'
'a1 ko`1' -> 'ang1 ko1 (a1)'
'a1 tiu*7' -> 'an2 tiu*7 (a7)'
'a1 ku7' -> 'ang2 ku7 (a7)'
'a1 kim7' -> 'ang2 kim7 (a7)'
'a1 i5' -> 'an2 i5 (a1)'
etc...
Reading the short verse in Dylan's page, I recall the similar short verse of ours:
一勻表 cit8 un5 piau2
兩勻表 nng7 un5 piau2
三勻散了了 sa*1 un5 sua*3 liau2 liau2
It means after two levels of "cousin" (e.g. cousin's children), on the third level the kinship is over, because most of them don't know each other anymore.
[%sig%]
These kinship terms in my accents are similar to Sim & Andrew's. However, we usually say 'hia*1' 兄 for biological brother. Personally I feel that 'hia*1' sounds more intimate than 'ko1' 哥. I tend to use 'hia*1' for biological brother and 'ko1' for others.
Usually we add the particle 'a' before many of them such as 'a' + 'kong1'/'ma8'/'pe4'/'m2'...etc. 'a' is naturalized as 'ang'/'am'/'an' for closer relationship (more intimate). Sometimes another 'a' is added at the end.
'a1 kong1' -> 'ang1 kong1 (a1)'
'a1 ma8' -> 'am1 ma8'
'a1 pa5' -> 'an2 pa5'
'a1 bu2'/'a1 bu1' -> 'am1 bu1 (a1)'
'a1 pe4' -> 'an2 pe4'
'a1 m2' -> 'an2 m2'
'a1 cik4' -> 'an2 cik4 (a3)'
'a1 cim2' -> 'an2 cim2 (a3)'
'a1 ko`1' -> 'ang1 ko1 (a1)'
'a1 tiu*7' -> 'an2 tiu*7 (a7)'
'a1 ku7' -> 'ang2 ku7 (a7)'
'a1 kim7' -> 'ang2 kim7 (a7)'
'a1 i5' -> 'an2 i5 (a1)'
etc...
Reading the short verse in Dylan's page, I recall the similar short verse of ours:
一勻表 cit8 un5 piau2
兩勻表 nng7 un5 piau2
三勻散了了 sa*1 un5 sua*3 liau2 liau2
It means after two levels of "cousin" (e.g. cousin's children), on the third level the kinship is over, because most of them don't know each other anymore.
[%sig%]
-
Sim
Re: Hokkien kinship terms
Andrew,
Are any of the Chinese characters you give unique to Minnan, or perhaps South Chinese dialects?
Sim.
Are any of the Chinese characters you give unique to Minnan, or perhaps South Chinese dialects?
Sim.