Misc. random questions: pronunciation, final particles, etc.

[FutureSpy]

Well, I've been laughed at in TW for speaking "akong amá Tâigí".

Am I missing the joke, or can you really say such a short sentence?

Interesting. Hokkien sī is mainly used as copula, i.e. TO BE, but sometimes used for a certain kind of emphasis. Copula can often be omitted in Hoklo. This puts it in line w/ most SE Asian languages. Mandarin copula shì 是, likely a cognate, can rarely be omitted. I notice that the Manducated, even ones in their 60s, rarely omit the copula when they write Hoklo -- it just feels incorrect to them.

Sorry, re-reading my last post, I felt what I wrote was confusing, but in short: the old edition uses mā and the new one uses mā-sī. Is that sī in mā-sī the copula? 'Cos if the sentence w/o mā-sī/mā is "Góa ài jo̍ah-thiⁿ. 我愛熱天。", why "Góa mā-sī ài jo̍ah-thiⁿ. 我mā是愛熱天。" and not simply "Góa mā ài jo̍ah-thiⁿ. 我mā愛熱天。"? I understand that mā and mā-sī are synonyms, but then "Góa sī ài jo̍ah-thiⁿ. 我是愛熱天。" is also correct?

BTW have U considered signing up for the Tâigúbāng listserve, now a Google Group? https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgr ... orum/taigu
It's one of probably two forums or listserves I've seen where people regularly write in pure and consistent romaji. The other would be one I saw out of Medan, but I haven't been able to find it since the first time.

Thanks. I'll try it, but just for reading practice by now. I still can't get used to things written in all romanization, especially 'cos I don't know most words
BTW, why do you have a pt-br in the URL? Is your Google in Brazilian Portuguese?

[AndrewAndrew]

I've been wondering about the ch- and for a long time, but haven't really bottomed it out. I have always assumed that Penangites pronounced it like tɕ , and Singaporeans pronounced it closer to ts, and some English-educated people pronounced it tʒ. However, I have heard a lot of Chinese-educated Penangites pronounce it close to ts, so I am still unsure. Chh- is possibly further back than the unaspirated version.

[amhoanna]

Andrew, what U said is in line with my impressions. I associate the ts- pronunciation with Teochew, the Straits, and Singapore. Young Taiwanese have it moved way back in both Hoklo and Mandarin, poss. influenced by "remigrant" pop stars from North America.

Is that sī in mā-sī the copula? 'Cos if the sentence w/o mā-sī/mā is "Góa ài jo̍ah-thiⁿ. 我愛熱天。", why "Góa mā-sī ài jo̍ah-thiⁿ. 我mā是愛熱天。" and not simply "Góa mā ài jo̍ah-thiⁿ. 我mā愛熱天。"? I understand that mā and mā-sī are synonyms, but then "Góa sī ài jo̍ah-thiⁿ.

Not so fast, Futurespy. Maybe they're not synonyms. To my ear, "Goá mā ài joa̍hthiⁿ" sounds like I LOVE SUMMER (AS WELL AS WINTER), whereas "Goá mā sī ài joa̍hthiⁿ" sounds like LIKE THEM, I'M ALSO A SUMMER-LOVER. Will need confirmation from a native spkr. As for whether the 是 here is copula, I don't understand the theory well enough to say. Seems like some kind of a focusing function. Not sure.

Well, I've been laughed at in TW for speaking "akong amá Tâigí".

Am I missing the joke, or can you really say such a short sentence?

They felt that I was speaking (falando, nao dissendo) "akong amá Tâigí".

I still can't get used to things written in all romanization, especially 'cos I don't know most words

So U do with Hoklo what I do with JPese? although not to the same extent? When I read Japanese, I only rd the hiragana in JPese, w/ very little comprehension, since I've never really learned any JPese. I sound out the kanji in Hoklo and get most of my comprehension from there. And I skip the katakana.

For a Hoklo learner, the benefits of reading all-romaji texts abound, even more than all-kana texts for the JPese learner -- b/c Hoklo writers are less consistent with their use of kanji.

BTW, why do you have a pt-br in the URL? Is your Google in Brazilian Portuguese?

Sometimes, I think. But that time it was in another language and I tried to switch it to JP, but it didn't work, so PT-BR it was.

[FutureSpy]

Not so fast, Futurespy. Maybe they're not synonyms. To my ear, "Goá mā ài joa̍hthiⁿ" sounds like I LOVE SUMMER (AS WELL AS WINTER), whereas "Goá mā sī ài joa̍hthiⁿ" sounds like LIKE THEM, I'M ALSO A SUMMER-LOVER. Will need confirmation from a native spkr. As for whether the 是 here is copula, I don't understand the theory well enough to say. Seems like some kind of a focusing function. Not sure.

Wait... So perhaps don't we have here ma7, ma7-si7 and ma7 si7? In ma7-si wouldn't ma7 sandhi, while in ma7 si7 not? (no idea about tones, I'm just guessing )

They felt that I was speaking (falando, nao dissendo) "akong amá Tâigí".

Oh, gotcha! Don't think it's such a bad thing, but they I try to imagine young people using rolled R (Southern Brazilian Portuguese still retain it to some degree, but not so rolled) and using slangs only older people would use.

BTW, watching Singaporen movies I saw that, despite speaking in Mandarin, even young people call their grandpas a-kong and a-má. That's not Mandarin, right?

So U do with Hoklo what I do with JPese? although not to the same extent? When I read Japanese, I only rd the hiragana in JPese, w/ very little comprehension, since I've never really learned any JPese. I sound out the kanji in Hoklo and get most of my comprehension from there. And I skip the katakana.

I can't deny that, sometimes, when I feel I understand a whole sentence in a song, it's because of Japanese and because it's written in hanji. If I simply heard the sentence I'd be like "WTF are they saying?". I'm cheating, I know, shame on me! I need to get over my prejudices against romanization. But lemme tell you something: if I had a text all in hiragana without spaces, I'd really shrug at it... No cues on where a word finish and where another starts!

[niuc]

Wow, you guys rock! I don't think I can differentiate between tɕ, ts and tʃ; or s, ɕ and ʂ; nor knowing which one I use! Next time when I meet anyone of you, please remember to teach me how to differentiate (and also glottal stop!) ok?

In my variant:
明仔載 (tomorrow) is miá-tsaì, and rarely bîn-á-tsài.
明年 (next year) is also mûa-nî, seldom mê-nî but so far not mâ-nî.
頂年 tíng-nî or 舊年 kū-nî (last year) are usually followed by 仔 (in this case "_a" in T1 after 年 which is still in T5).
前年 tsâiⁿ-nî can be understood but must be very rare.
存年 tsûn_nî (two years ago) is also followed by 仔 (in this case "_ä" in neutral tone after 年 which is also in neutral tone).
讀書 thàk-tsu· (u·=ɯ) is more common, but 讀冊 thàk-tsheh is also used.

In my impression, 書 is thicker and more formal (e.g. text book) than 冊 (can be notebook, small book, comic etc). However, I ever read somewhere (here?) that originally 冊 was official and 書 colloquial, or something like that. What is your impression & what do you think?

I don't understand àn-nāi. And liāu-lí in my variant primarily means to manage (which seems to be the original meaning in Chinese; ref: http://baike.baidu.com/view/316936.htm). Only much later I came to know that it also meant cuisine type.

For me, 我mā愛熱天 and 我mā是愛熱天 is very similar if not identical, the latter with more emphasis. In my usage, both can mean I LOVE SUMMER (AS WELL AS WINTER) and LIKE THEM, I'M ALSO A SUMMER-LOVER.
However, 我是愛熱天 is different. In my variant, it's more natural to add neutralized ë (个) after the sentence, and it means I AM THE TYPE THAT LOVES SUMMER (BUT NOT WINTER). Without ë (个), it sounds hanging, waiting for e.g. m7是愛冷天 or m7-kú我buē擋个熱...

Ma7 & ma7-si7 sandhi regularly.

BTW, watching Singaporen movies I saw that, despite speaking in Mandarin, even young people call their grandpas a-kong and a-má. That's not Mandarin, right?

Correct, those are Hokkien terms widely used in Singapore Mandarin.

[AndrewAndrew]

Wow, you guys rock! I don't think I can differentiate between tɕ, ts and tʃ; or s, ɕ and ʂ; nor knowing which one I use! Next time when I meet anyone of you, please remember to teach me how to differentiate (and also glottal stop!) ok?

Niuc, I know many southern Chinese can't, but if you can distinguish

z- [ts] c- [tsh] s- [s],
zh- [tʂ], ch- [tʂh], sh- [ʂ], and
j- [tɕ], q- [tɕh], x- [ɕ] in Mandarin, and
ch- [tʃ] and sh- [ʃ] in English

then you have all of these already.

I'm not sure whether it's adequate to represent Hokkien, but apparently in Taiwan they distinguish between
ji [ʑi], chi [tɕi], chhi [tɕhi], si [ɕi], and
j- [dz], ts- [ts], tsh- [tsh], s- [s], for other finals

Douglas also notices the distinction, using ch- only for e, i, and ts- for everything else. For chh-, he says that:

Sometimes chh has a sound more nearly approaching to an aspirated ts. This occurs occasionally when chh is followed by a, o', u, or ng. Generally even before these letters the sound remains the same, or very nearly the same, as the usual chh, but sometimes it might have been written tsh or ts'h, especially in the dialects of Chin-chew and Tung-an, and in other cases it seems about half-way between chh and ts'h. But as these sounds are not very common, and as they shade gradu- ally into the normal chh, I have thought it best not to make any change in the spelling usual at Amoy.

I do notice that in Taiwan, si is pronounced with a [ɕ] like Mandarin xi, whereas in Penang it is a clear [s]. Chi/Chhi in Penang are like Mandarin ji [tɕi] and qi [tɕhi].

Both ji and joah in Penang seem to be the same [ʑ]. I have not yet bottomed out the rest, but will listen closely in the next few weeks.

[SimL]

BTW, watching Singaporen movies I saw that, despite speaking in Mandarin, even young people call their grandpas a-kong and a-má. That's not Mandarin, right?

Correct, those are Hokkien terms widely used in Singapore Mandarin.

This would appear to be an interesting phenomenon which has a wider application than either being Hokkien or being in Singapore.

When I was young we had Italian neighbours in Australia. The grandmother was definitely born in Italy, the son was either born in Italy or Australia (probably the former), and the grandchildren were definitely born in Australia.

The grandchildren didn't speak any Italian (though they could understand it), but they all addressed their grandmother as "Nonna", which (as far as I understand) is the Italian word for Grandmother.

Similarly, my little niece of 10 speaks no Hokkien (to say nothing of Mandarin). She was born in Australia, and her mother is of Anglo-Saxon descent, and my brother (=her father) left Penang at the age of 5, so the chance that she might ever learn Hokkien were close to non-existent. Nevertheless, she addresses my parents as "Ah Kong" and "Ah Mah" (that's the traditional informal Malaysian orthography, it's of course "a-kong" and "a-ma" in POJ, as there is no glottal stop in any of these syllables). My little niece goes one step further and addresses me as "tua pEh", which I was a little bit sceptical about when it first started (it was my mother who was very keen on this), but which I'm nowadays completely delighted about!

[FutureSpy]

niuc, thanks for the info on your variant

! I don't think I can differentiate between tɕ, ts and tʃ; or s, ɕ and ʂ; nor knowing which one I use!

I don't know the differences between all these either

This would appear to be an interesting phenomenon which has a wider application than either being Hokkien or being in Singapore.

Indeed. My elder brother and me call my grandparents じいちゃん jiichan and ばあちゃん baachan, even if in my grandparents' variant it's simply じー jii and ばー baa (that's also how they refer to themselves when talking to me). Besides, when I was very small I'd call my brother あんちゃ ancha, which is my grandma's variant equivalent to 兄貴 aniki and お兄ちゃん oniichan, but obviously I don't do that anymore since a long time.

[SimL]

Besides, when I was very small I'd call my brother あんちゃ ancha, which is my grandma's variant equivalent to 兄貴 aniki and お兄ちゃん oniichan, but obviously I don't do that anymore since a long time.

Hi FutureSpy,

Very interesting! So, you address your brother nowadays by his personal name?

My two younger brothers are 5-6 years younger than me, and only one year apart in age from one another, so the youngest never addressed the middle one as "ji-ko". However, they both addressed me as "ko-ko" when they were very young (there was no need to address me as "tua-ko", as I was the only "ko" around).

Once we got to Australia, the "ko-ko" seemed perhaps a bit odd, so they modified it into a nickname for me, and started addressing me as "kokes". (That's "English" spelling conventions, so rhymes with "folks", "hoax", "jokes", "pokes", "soaks".)

That's what they call me to this day. It's been that way since I was 15-16, so I don't even notice that it must be quite odd to someone who doesn't know the family. In their emails to me, they write "Hi Kokes" too. I always sign my emails back "Sim" though.

[amhoanna]

Niuc, thanks for the grammar clarification! Very helpful.

rolled R (Southern Brazilian Portuguese still retain it to some degree, but not so rolled)

What about the northeast and north? Recife, Fortaleza, Sao Luis?

I've heard that the Portuguese up there is much more Iberian, with hints of a time when Portugal was an Arab colony.