Hi Niuc,
Thanks for your input. The inserted "n" is very interesting, as I'd not heard about it before.
A number of them surprised me though...
'a1 pa5' -> 'an2 pa5'
'a1 pe4' -> 'an2 pe4'
'a1 m2' -> 'an2 m2'
(not that I'm disagreeing with you, it's YOUR dialect!)
What surprised me is that a very common process across different languages is -n turning into -m in front of p-, b-, m-; and turning into -ng in front of k-, g-. This is called "assimmilation" because the point where the nasal sound (n) is made changes to the same point where the following sound is made (with the lips, in the case of p-, b-, m-, and at the back of the throat, in the case of k-, g-).
[ One example is the basic negative particle in- from Latin, adopted into English. "intractable", "indelible", "innumerable", "inedible", but "important", "imbibe", "immeasurable". For "incorrigable", "ingrate the words are *pronounced* "ing-corrigable", "ing-grate", but this is not reflected in the spelling. ]
So you see, your form of Hokkien seems to follow the same pattern in front of k- and m-, but not p-. Do you know any related forms of Hokkien where the words might be:
'a1 pa5' -> 'am2 pa5'
'a1 pe4' -> 'am2 pe4'
'a1 m2' -> 'am2 m2' ?
Cheers,
Sim.
[%sig%]
Hokkien kinship terms
-
Andrew Yong
Re: Hokkien kinship terms
Sim: I expect many of them are. Many of the terms do not exist in Mandarin.
andrew
andrew
-
Sim
Re: Hokkien kinship terms
>> However, we usually say 'hia*1' 兄 for biological brother. Personally I
>> feel that 'hia*1' sounds more intimate than 'ko1' 哥. I tend to
>> use 'hia*1' for biological brother and 'ko1' for others.
This is interesting because it turns out to be completely the opposite for my paternal grandparents' generation. I said in one of the postings for this thread that there was still one term I had at the back of the my mind which was used between brothers-in-law (but that I couldn't remember it). I checked that with my father today, and it turned out to be "hia*1"! So (as my father explained), in his parents' generation, "ko1" was used to indicate biological elder brother, and "hia*" elder male relation, same generation, by marriage. i.e. the husband of a younger sister would address the elder sister's husband as "<personalname> hia*".
In my own and my parents' generation, it was always "<personalname> ko1", and most of these "hia*" males were dead by the time I was 5-6, so I'd never heard about this use of "hia*" until I started asking my parents about the kinship term system in detail. This means that in my and my parents' generation, when you heard X addressing Y as "<personalname> ko", there was no way of knowing whether Y was X's elder cousin, or elder brother-in-law. [ Of course, if "-ko" was preceded by "tua", "ji", "sa*", etc instead of the <personalname>, then you knew that Y was not an in-law, but a biological elder brother (i.e. within the same nuclear family), because the "ranking" terms were only used within the nuclear family. ]
Niuc: when you say you use "hia*" for biological elder brother, does that mean you say: "tua hia*", "ji hia*", "san hia*", etc when addressing your eldest, second, third etc elder brothers?
[%sig%]
>> feel that 'hia*1' sounds more intimate than 'ko1' 哥. I tend to
>> use 'hia*1' for biological brother and 'ko1' for others.
This is interesting because it turns out to be completely the opposite for my paternal grandparents' generation. I said in one of the postings for this thread that there was still one term I had at the back of the my mind which was used between brothers-in-law (but that I couldn't remember it). I checked that with my father today, and it turned out to be "hia*1"! So (as my father explained), in his parents' generation, "ko1" was used to indicate biological elder brother, and "hia*" elder male relation, same generation, by marriage. i.e. the husband of a younger sister would address the elder sister's husband as "<personalname> hia*".
In my own and my parents' generation, it was always "<personalname> ko1", and most of these "hia*" males were dead by the time I was 5-6, so I'd never heard about this use of "hia*" until I started asking my parents about the kinship term system in detail. This means that in my and my parents' generation, when you heard X addressing Y as "<personalname> ko", there was no way of knowing whether Y was X's elder cousin, or elder brother-in-law. [ Of course, if "-ko" was preceded by "tua", "ji", "sa*", etc instead of the <personalname>, then you knew that Y was not an in-law, but a biological elder brother (i.e. within the same nuclear family), because the "ranking" terms were only used within the nuclear family. ]
Niuc: when you say you use "hia*" for biological elder brother, does that mean you say: "tua hia*", "ji hia*", "san hia*", etc when addressing your eldest, second, third etc elder brothers?
[%sig%]
-
Niuc
Re: Hokkien kinship terms
Hi Sim
Thanks for the info about assimilation of "n" sound. I also observe that this assimilation process happens in other languages such as Indonesian & Japanese. For sure it also happens in Hokkien (in my dialect too) e.g. to call a fat person 阿肥 'a1 pui5' -> 'am1 pui5 (e0)' [the fatty].
I heard of people saying 'am2 pa5' or 'am1 pa5' but never 'am2 pe2'/'am2 m2'. Particularly 'am2 m2', I find it hard to pronounce. I think 'n' sound here is to make it clearer.
Particle 'a' is also used before and after personal names. Usually only one syllable name has the particle 'a' before it that naturalized to indicate familiarity. If a person's name is 平 'ping5' [peace], usually his family will call him 'an1 ping5 a1' or 'am1 ping5 a1'.
About 'hia*1' & 'ko1', it's interesting to note the difference between Hokkien dialects. Yes, we also say 'tua7 hia*1', 'ji7/di7 hia*1', 'sa*1 hia*1', etc. Brother-in-law is 姊夫 'ci1 hu1', this term can be used to call the person yet usually we just use their personal names. Some use 'ko1' for brother-in-law. O yeah, btw we also use 'hia*1' in 隔腹兄 'ke4 pak4 hia*1' and 表兄 'piau2 hia*1' [(paternal & maternal) elder male cousin]. 隔腹 'ke4 pak4' indeed means "across the stomach", a very interesting term, and I agree with your speculation.
'hia*1 ti7' [brothers] if used in sentence such as 恁有幾個兄弟 'lin2 u3 kui2 e3 hia*1 ti7' ('hia*1 ti0-a0' sounds more natural) can mean "how many brothers/siblings do you have?". {We usually use plural you 'lin2' in this type of question, although talking to only one person.} The complete question should be 恁有幾個兄弟姊妹 'lin2 u3 kui2 e3 hia*1 ti7 ci2 ber7' ('..ber0-a0'). In some context, 姊妹 'ci2 ber0-a0' [sisters] can also mean siblings.
'kia*2' 子 or 囝, in ours can mean both child or son, depends on the context. 後生 'hau7 si*1' & 'ta1 po`1 kia*2' = son. 'ca1 bo`2 kia2' & 'ca1 bo`3-a0' = daughter. We never use 'thai3 kong1' or 'thai3 ma8' but 祖 'co`2' i.e. 'ta1 po`1 co`2' & 'ca1 bo`2 co`2'.
It's very interesting that grandchild & (paternal) nephew/niece are both 孫 'sun1' in Hokkien. One word 'sun1' can means both in ours, hence sometimes we say 'sun3-a0' to emphasize "nephew/niece". According to an article in Hoklo.org http://www.hoklo.org/HokloCulture/Articles/?show=2#2 , this is a characteristic of some Austronesian languages. Literary term for paternal nephew is 侄仔 'tit8 a0'/'tit3-a0', for paternal niece is 侄女 'tit8 ly2'. Maternal nephew is 外甥 'gue3 sing1', maternal niece is 外甥女 'gue3 sing1 ly2'.
Correction: 'a1 ko`1' -> 'ang1 ko`1 (a1)' not 'ang1 ko1 (a)'.
[%sig%]
Thanks for the info about assimilation of "n" sound. I also observe that this assimilation process happens in other languages such as Indonesian & Japanese. For sure it also happens in Hokkien (in my dialect too) e.g. to call a fat person 阿肥 'a1 pui5' -> 'am1 pui5 (e0)' [the fatty].
I heard of people saying 'am2 pa5' or 'am1 pa5' but never 'am2 pe2'/'am2 m2'. Particularly 'am2 m2', I find it hard to pronounce. I think 'n' sound here is to make it clearer.
Particle 'a' is also used before and after personal names. Usually only one syllable name has the particle 'a' before it that naturalized to indicate familiarity. If a person's name is 平 'ping5' [peace], usually his family will call him 'an1 ping5 a1' or 'am1 ping5 a1'.
About 'hia*1' & 'ko1', it's interesting to note the difference between Hokkien dialects. Yes, we also say 'tua7 hia*1', 'ji7/di7 hia*1', 'sa*1 hia*1', etc. Brother-in-law is 姊夫 'ci1 hu1', this term can be used to call the person yet usually we just use their personal names. Some use 'ko1' for brother-in-law. O yeah, btw we also use 'hia*1' in 隔腹兄 'ke4 pak4 hia*1' and 表兄 'piau2 hia*1' [(paternal & maternal) elder male cousin]. 隔腹 'ke4 pak4' indeed means "across the stomach", a very interesting term, and I agree with your speculation.
'hia*1 ti7' [brothers] if used in sentence such as 恁有幾個兄弟 'lin2 u3 kui2 e3 hia*1 ti7' ('hia*1 ti0-a0' sounds more natural) can mean "how many brothers/siblings do you have?". {We usually use plural you 'lin2' in this type of question, although talking to only one person.} The complete question should be 恁有幾個兄弟姊妹 'lin2 u3 kui2 e3 hia*1 ti7 ci2 ber7' ('..ber0-a0'). In some context, 姊妹 'ci2 ber0-a0' [sisters] can also mean siblings.
'kia*2' 子 or 囝, in ours can mean both child or son, depends on the context. 後生 'hau7 si*1' & 'ta1 po`1 kia*2' = son. 'ca1 bo`2 kia2' & 'ca1 bo`3-a0' = daughter. We never use 'thai3 kong1' or 'thai3 ma8' but 祖 'co`2' i.e. 'ta1 po`1 co`2' & 'ca1 bo`2 co`2'.
It's very interesting that grandchild & (paternal) nephew/niece are both 孫 'sun1' in Hokkien. One word 'sun1' can means both in ours, hence sometimes we say 'sun3-a0' to emphasize "nephew/niece". According to an article in Hoklo.org http://www.hoklo.org/HokloCulture/Articles/?show=2#2 , this is a characteristic of some Austronesian languages. Literary term for paternal nephew is 侄仔 'tit8 a0'/'tit3-a0', for paternal niece is 侄女 'tit8 ly2'. Maternal nephew is 外甥 'gue3 sing1', maternal niece is 外甥女 'gue3 sing1 ly2'.
Correction: 'a1 ko`1' -> 'ang1 ko`1 (a1)' not 'ang1 ko1 (a)'.
[%sig%]
-
Niuc
Re: Hokkien kinship terms
Correction: 外甥 should be 'gue7 sing1' (sandhi: 'gue3-sing1'), 外甥女 'gue7 sing1 ly2' ('gue3-sing7-ly2'). 外 means "outer, outside", usually read as 'gua7' (外公 'gua7 kong1'), rarely 'gue7'.
In Taiwanese TV programs, 'hia*1 ti7' is also used for mafia. May be Kaiah or Taiwanese friends here can confirm this. I think they say 'hia*1 ti7 a0' (sandhi: 'hia*7-ti3-a0'?) to emphasize the original meaning "brothers".
[%sig%]
In Taiwanese TV programs, 'hia*1 ti7' is also used for mafia. May be Kaiah or Taiwanese friends here can confirm this. I think they say 'hia*1 ti7 a0' (sandhi: 'hia*7-ti3-a0'?) to emphasize the original meaning "brothers".
[%sig%]
-
Sim
Re: Hokkien kinship terms
>> this assimilation process happens in other languages such as
>> Indonesian & Japan
Yes, thanks for reminding me, Niuc. I had forgotten that the "men-" and "pen-" prefixes in Malay follow more or less these rules also.
>> Brother-in-law is 姊夫 'ci1 hu1', this term can be used to call
>> the person yet usually we just use their personal names.
The use of personal names _in connection with kinship terms_ involveds one subtlety in my family's kinship term system. I hadn't outlined in detail earlier, so I'll do that here now.
First, some definitions:
#) An "elder" was someone one had to address by their kinship term, never by their name (that would have been considered extremely rude).
#) A non-elder was anyone who was not an elder, and such a person was addressed by name.
The rules of determining who was an elder and who was a non-elder was more subtle than one might think in the first instance.
1) Firstly, an elder was anyone of an older generation than oneself. That's extremely straight-forward, and is what one would expect. So, one's parents, their siblings and cousins, one's grandparents, and *their* siblings and cousins, and ones great-grandparents were elders. Relative age did not play a role.
[ This can result in some "unsual" situations where the youngest child (say X) of a family is younger than the oldest grandchild (say Y) of that family. In such a case, then X is still considered an "elder" of Y. i.e. an aunt or uncle of Y. For example, if the age difference between the eldest (A) and the youngest child (B) is 25 years and the eldest child (A) has his/her first child (C) when he/she (A) is 20, then the this eldest grandchild (C) will be 5 years *older* than his/her "uncle" or "aunt" (B), but C will still have to address this person as "uncle" or "aunt". This gets very extreme in the context of the extended family, i.e. the chance is even greater that younger cousins of one's parents may be much younger than oneself. ]
2) Next, the spouses of all these elders were also one's elders. Again, relative age did not play a role.
[ Both these rules are quiet "intuitive" and probably understandable by people outside Chinese culture. For example, in Western culture, the wife of your (blood) uncle might sort of be considered your "aunt", even if she were younger than you. ]
3) Lastly, *within* the same generation, being an elder was determined by more complex rules:
... a. a relative by blood was considered to be an elder or not an elder based solely on age.
... b. a relative by marriage was considered to be an elder based on the age of the blood relative he/she was married to.
So, for example, according to "3a", all male and female siblings and cousins who were older than one were elders. If they were in the same nuclear family (i.e. siblings of one's parents), they were addressed as "tua", "ji", "sa*", etc "-ko"/"-ci"; if they are outside of one's nuclear family (i.e. cousins of one's parents), they were addressed as <personalname> plus "-ko"/"-ci".
[ See footnotes A and B below for variants on this system. ]
According to "3b" however, for spouses of the people in "3a":
- If the male/female sibling/cousin was one's elder, than the spouse was also considered one's elder, irrespective of whether that spouse was older or younger than one.
- If the male/female sibling/cousin was not one's elder, than the spouse was also considered not one's elder, irrespective of whether that spouse was older or younger than one.
So, for example, if one had a 4th eldest brother, si-ko, then his wife was automatically si-so, and one could not address her by name, even if she was much younger than one.
Conversely, if one had a younger sister (whom one addressed by name), then her husband was also simply addressed by name - one did not have to address him as <hispersonalname>-ko/-hia*, even if he was much older than one.
[ I'm not saying that this idea is so strange that it would appear totally weird to non-Chinese, only that it is a small subtlety in the system which might not be immediately apparent to people unfamiliar with the system. ]
===========================================================================
Footnotes:
A. I have seen a book where a Chinese man describes his family. In it all the cousins were ranked 1,2,3, etc in order of age, not just within the *nuclear* family.
For example, suppose that:
#) X, Y are 2 brothers
#) A, B are 2 sons of X
#) C, D are 2 sons of Y
This is what the tree looks like:
..........................
...A ---+.................
........|.................
........+---- X ---+......
........|..........|......
...B ---+..........|......
...................|......
...................+---...
...................|......
...................|......
...C ---+..........|......
........|..........|......
........+---- Y ---+......
........|.................
...D ---+.................
..........................
Suppose also that the order of being born (i.e. age) is A, C, D, B.
In my family's system, A and B are ranked within their nuclear family - A (tua), B (ji); and C and D are ranked within *their* nuclear family - C (tua), D (ji).
So we get:
#) For the children of B: A is tua-pEh
#) For the children of A: B is ji-cek
#) For the children of D: C is tua-pEh
#) For the children of C: D is ji-cek
#) For the children of A: C is addressed as <C>-cek,
.. and D is addressed as <D>-cek. cek because they
.. are younger than A, and personal names rather than
.. ranking because they are *cousins* of A, and hence
.. outside that nuclear family
#) For the children of B: C is addressed as <C>-pEh,
.. and D is addressed as <D>-pEh. pEh because they
.. are older than B, and personal names rather than
.. ranking because they are *cousins* of B, and hence
.. outside that nuclear family
#) For the children of C and D: A is addressed as <A>-pEh,
.. and B is addressed as <B>-cek. pEh/cek respectively
.. because they are older/younger than C,D, and personal
.. names rather than ranking because they are *cousins*
.. of C,D, and hence outside that nuclear family
#) There is no sa*-/si- pEh/-cek, because there are no
.. 3rd or 4th sons in either nuclear family.
However, in the alternative system I read about in this book, A, C, D, B are ranked across the whole family - A (tua), C (ji), D (sa*), B (si).
So we get:
#) For the children of A: C is ji-cek, D is sa*-cek, B is si-cek
#) For the children of C: A is tua-pEh, D is sa*-cek, B is si-cek
#) For the children of D: A is tua-pEh, C is ji-pEh, B is si-cek
#) For the children of B: A is tua-pEh, C is ji-pEh, D is sa*-pEh
Is this a very common system among Hokkiens? I can't remember exactly what the dialect group of the author of that book was, but it was almost definitely not Hokkien (perhaps Hakka).
[ I use only males in this example, but the principle extends to both sexes. ]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
B. In my family's kinship term system, the sons are ranked in a separate series from the daughters. In other systems (I believe some Cantonese ones), the children are all ranked in one series, irrespective of sex.
For example, suppose we have a family with the following children:
... M, M, F, M, F, F, M
In my family's system, this is:
... "tua ko", "ji-ko", "tua-ci", "sa*-ko", "ji-ci", "sa*-ci", youngest
and correspondingly, the children of the youngest son would have:
... "tua-pEh", "ji-peh", "tua-kO", "sa*-pEh", "ji-kO", "sa*-kO"
and all the other cousins would have: si-cek.
In the other system, this is:
"tua ko", "ji-ko", "sa*-ci", "si-ko", "gO-ci", "lak-ci", youngest
and correspondingly, the children of the youngest son would have:
... "tua-pEh", "ji-pEh", "sa*-kO", "si-pEh", "gO-kO", lak-kO"
and all the other cousins would have: chit-cek.
Again, I'm not aware of any Hokkiens who rank in this way.
[%sig%]
>> Indonesian & Japan
Yes, thanks for reminding me, Niuc. I had forgotten that the "men-" and "pen-" prefixes in Malay follow more or less these rules also.
>> Brother-in-law is 姊夫 'ci1 hu1', this term can be used to call
>> the person yet usually we just use their personal names.
The use of personal names _in connection with kinship terms_ involveds one subtlety in my family's kinship term system. I hadn't outlined in detail earlier, so I'll do that here now.
First, some definitions:
#) An "elder" was someone one had to address by their kinship term, never by their name (that would have been considered extremely rude).
#) A non-elder was anyone who was not an elder, and such a person was addressed by name.
The rules of determining who was an elder and who was a non-elder was more subtle than one might think in the first instance.
1) Firstly, an elder was anyone of an older generation than oneself. That's extremely straight-forward, and is what one would expect. So, one's parents, their siblings and cousins, one's grandparents, and *their* siblings and cousins, and ones great-grandparents were elders. Relative age did not play a role.
[ This can result in some "unsual" situations where the youngest child (say X) of a family is younger than the oldest grandchild (say Y) of that family. In such a case, then X is still considered an "elder" of Y. i.e. an aunt or uncle of Y. For example, if the age difference between the eldest (A) and the youngest child (B) is 25 years and the eldest child (A) has his/her first child (C) when he/she (A) is 20, then the this eldest grandchild (C) will be 5 years *older* than his/her "uncle" or "aunt" (B), but C will still have to address this person as "uncle" or "aunt". This gets very extreme in the context of the extended family, i.e. the chance is even greater that younger cousins of one's parents may be much younger than oneself. ]
2) Next, the spouses of all these elders were also one's elders. Again, relative age did not play a role.
[ Both these rules are quiet "intuitive" and probably understandable by people outside Chinese culture. For example, in Western culture, the wife of your (blood) uncle might sort of be considered your "aunt", even if she were younger than you. ]
3) Lastly, *within* the same generation, being an elder was determined by more complex rules:
... a. a relative by blood was considered to be an elder or not an elder based solely on age.
... b. a relative by marriage was considered to be an elder based on the age of the blood relative he/she was married to.
So, for example, according to "3a", all male and female siblings and cousins who were older than one were elders. If they were in the same nuclear family (i.e. siblings of one's parents), they were addressed as "tua", "ji", "sa*", etc "-ko"/"-ci"; if they are outside of one's nuclear family (i.e. cousins of one's parents), they were addressed as <personalname> plus "-ko"/"-ci".
[ See footnotes A and B below for variants on this system. ]
According to "3b" however, for spouses of the people in "3a":
- If the male/female sibling/cousin was one's elder, than the spouse was also considered one's elder, irrespective of whether that spouse was older or younger than one.
- If the male/female sibling/cousin was not one's elder, than the spouse was also considered not one's elder, irrespective of whether that spouse was older or younger than one.
So, for example, if one had a 4th eldest brother, si-ko, then his wife was automatically si-so, and one could not address her by name, even if she was much younger than one.
Conversely, if one had a younger sister (whom one addressed by name), then her husband was also simply addressed by name - one did not have to address him as <hispersonalname>-ko/-hia*, even if he was much older than one.
[ I'm not saying that this idea is so strange that it would appear totally weird to non-Chinese, only that it is a small subtlety in the system which might not be immediately apparent to people unfamiliar with the system. ]
===========================================================================
Footnotes:
A. I have seen a book where a Chinese man describes his family. In it all the cousins were ranked 1,2,3, etc in order of age, not just within the *nuclear* family.
For example, suppose that:
#) X, Y are 2 brothers
#) A, B are 2 sons of X
#) C, D are 2 sons of Y
This is what the tree looks like:
..........................
...A ---+.................
........|.................
........+---- X ---+......
........|..........|......
...B ---+..........|......
...................|......
...................+---...
...................|......
...................|......
...C ---+..........|......
........|..........|......
........+---- Y ---+......
........|.................
...D ---+.................
..........................
Suppose also that the order of being born (i.e. age) is A, C, D, B.
In my family's system, A and B are ranked within their nuclear family - A (tua), B (ji); and C and D are ranked within *their* nuclear family - C (tua), D (ji).
So we get:
#) For the children of B: A is tua-pEh
#) For the children of A: B is ji-cek
#) For the children of D: C is tua-pEh
#) For the children of C: D is ji-cek
#) For the children of A: C is addressed as <C>-cek,
.. and D is addressed as <D>-cek. cek because they
.. are younger than A, and personal names rather than
.. ranking because they are *cousins* of A, and hence
.. outside that nuclear family
#) For the children of B: C is addressed as <C>-pEh,
.. and D is addressed as <D>-pEh. pEh because they
.. are older than B, and personal names rather than
.. ranking because they are *cousins* of B, and hence
.. outside that nuclear family
#) For the children of C and D: A is addressed as <A>-pEh,
.. and B is addressed as <B>-cek. pEh/cek respectively
.. because they are older/younger than C,D, and personal
.. names rather than ranking because they are *cousins*
.. of C,D, and hence outside that nuclear family
#) There is no sa*-/si- pEh/-cek, because there are no
.. 3rd or 4th sons in either nuclear family.
However, in the alternative system I read about in this book, A, C, D, B are ranked across the whole family - A (tua), C (ji), D (sa*), B (si).
So we get:
#) For the children of A: C is ji-cek, D is sa*-cek, B is si-cek
#) For the children of C: A is tua-pEh, D is sa*-cek, B is si-cek
#) For the children of D: A is tua-pEh, C is ji-pEh, B is si-cek
#) For the children of B: A is tua-pEh, C is ji-pEh, D is sa*-pEh
Is this a very common system among Hokkiens? I can't remember exactly what the dialect group of the author of that book was, but it was almost definitely not Hokkien (perhaps Hakka).
[ I use only males in this example, but the principle extends to both sexes. ]
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
B. In my family's kinship term system, the sons are ranked in a separate series from the daughters. In other systems (I believe some Cantonese ones), the children are all ranked in one series, irrespective of sex.
For example, suppose we have a family with the following children:
... M, M, F, M, F, F, M
In my family's system, this is:
... "tua ko", "ji-ko", "tua-ci", "sa*-ko", "ji-ci", "sa*-ci", youngest
and correspondingly, the children of the youngest son would have:
... "tua-pEh", "ji-peh", "tua-kO", "sa*-pEh", "ji-kO", "sa*-kO"
and all the other cousins would have: si-cek.
In the other system, this is:
"tua ko", "ji-ko", "sa*-ci", "si-ko", "gO-ci", "lak-ci", youngest
and correspondingly, the children of the youngest son would have:
... "tua-pEh", "ji-pEh", "sa*-kO", "si-pEh", "gO-kO", lak-kO"
and all the other cousins would have: chit-cek.
Again, I'm not aware of any Hokkiens who rank in this way.
[%sig%]