More words...about 300 I can't track down.

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
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Ah-bin
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More words...about 300 I can't track down.

Post by Ah-bin »

I went through a smallish English to Chinese dictionary and wrote down a list of about 300 words that I did not have any PGHK equivalents for. Some of them have translations in deGijzel, others not. In any case, some of deGijzel's choices aren't what are really used in Penang (such as pian-sO for toilet when most people say "jamban". Others are just missing altogether. Once i have most of these I will feel comfortable about putting the dictionary forward for publication. By then it should have about 3500 words and be about 250 pages long. Still a pocket dictionary, though. I'll try and post ten at a time to keep the work in small manageable portions. Many thanks in advance for your help.

Of course, i can accept that people might not use many of these words, or replace them with Malay or English words, or that there is a circumlocution in PGHK rather than an exact or close equivalent.

1) Argument or debate (sio-mE is more like a quarrel than an argument)

2) To attack (phah, with extended meaning perhaps? or 攻擊 in Hokkien?)

3) Backwards (walk backwards)

4) Bandage (dG has pau-pO, is that common?)

5) Bankrupt (phO san 破產, perhaps? de Souza's "Manula of the Hailam colloquial has "do dio", which makes me suspect there may be another local Hokkien word for it 倒賬 perhaps?

6) Bedding (phoe-toaN is sheet, does it have the extended meaning of bedding?) Blanket is missing from dG. I was thinking "bedding" might be "phoe-toaN chim-thau" in the same way that "oaN-tu" (bowls and chopsticks) has the extended meaning of "dishes"

7) Boundary, border 地界 ? Te-kai? That is a Teochew word I found.

8) Bridal headdress (I have this as "tek koe" from somewhere, but can't find the word anywhere else)

9) To broadcast (I'm guessing kong-bo 廣播 or similar)

10) a certificate (I guess this is just choa 紙 with an extended meaning, isn't "birth certificate" chhut-si-choa 出世紙

That will do for now!
SimL
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Re: More words...about 300 I can't track down.

Post by SimL »

Hi Ah-bin,

I'm always surprised when I can answer some of your "more advanced" questions, as my Hokkien is so limited. I have also very limited access to the net at the moment and won't be speaking to my parents this weekend, but I'll ask them and other elders of that generation for you the weekend after next.

I have feedback on 3 of your items, not necessarily proper and satisfactory answers, though perhaps useful information nevertheless.
Ah-bin wrote:3) Backwards (walk backwards)
This one is "to-the3/7". The "to" is probably "to2" (to collapse, topple over, lie down") - Mandarin "dao3/4" - also used in "upside down" = Hokkien "to-peng2". No idea what the "the3/7" is though.

You can certainly say "kiaN-lO to-the" (= "to walk backwards") and almost certainly say "sai-chia to-the" (= "to drive backwards"), and probably even "sia-ji to-the" (= "to write backwards").
Ah-bin wrote:5) Bankrupt (phO san 破產, perhaps? de Souza's "Manula of the Hailam colloquial has "do dio", which makes me suspect there may be another local Hokkien word for it 倒賬 perhaps?
Here the common term when I was young was "phok4-kai1", which might be a Cantonese borrowing. It's got a rather "slangey" feel about it, perhaps appropriate for the "drama" of a person or organization going bankrupt.

(I'm more familiar with it for individuals than organizations though. And thinking about this further, it means "(flat) broke" rather than "bankrupt", but I'll leave the original reply with this added qualification, FWIW.)
Ah-bin wrote:6) Bedding (phoe-toaN is sheet, does it have the extended meaning of bedding?) Blanket is missing from dG. I was thinking "bedding" might be "phoe-toaN chim-thau" in the same way that "oaN-tu" (bowls and chopsticks) has the extended meaning of "dishes"
In my usage, "phue-tuaN" can only mean "blanket". A "bedsheet" is a "j(i)ok-a-ta", as "j(i)ok-a" is a "mattress". I seem to recall that I found "j(i)ok-a" in Douglas once, to my surprise (as I had assumed that it was very local to Penang Hokkien). The "ta3/7" is the same "ta3/7" as "bang2-ta3/7", which is a "mosquito net". I also seem to vaguely recall finding this "ta3/7" in Douglas too - could it be Mandarin "zhao4" (cover)?

Sorry, I can't check my Douglas at the moment , and this thing I'm typing on is not TLJ-enabled either.

BTW "pillow case" is "cim-thau long" - where the "long5" is simply any sort of cover one slips things into - an envelope is a "phe-long".
Ah-bin
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Re: More words...about 300 I can't track down.

Post by Ah-bin »

Thanks very much for these, Sim. I think a lot of them have been lost to most younger people. I have another idea for collecting words as well, but i'll try my hand here first.

Here is the second lot. Again, i think i have an idea about some already.

1) to change one’s mind "She wanted to go and live in Hong Kong, but then she changed her mind"

2) a check pattern

3) a clothes peg

4) To compensate, pay back (is this heng 返 or poe to-tuiN 賠倒轉?)

5) Complete, thorough

6) Condensed milk

7) To confess

8 ) Contagious (I guess "e chhoan e" 會傳个)

9)A cook (perhaps chu-chiah e lang 煮食个儂?)

10)A copy (of an original)

Thanks again in advance for what anyone can manage.
SimL
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Re: More words...about 300 I can't track down.

Post by SimL »

Ah-bin wrote:in the same way that "oaN-tu" (bowls and chopsticks) has the extended meaning of "dishes"
BTW, my standard word for "dishes" is "puaN-oaN" (plates and bowls), same principle as "oaN-tu". I was actually unfamiliar with "oaN-tu" - did you get that from a Penang Hokkien speaker? (Entirely possible of course, just asking.)

Of this next lot, even less useful information from me, I'm afraid.

In my usage:
4) To compensate, pay back (is this heng 返 or poe to-tuiN 賠倒轉?)
"heng5" = "give back" (can be money, but anything else borrowed as well: a book, clothes, a broom, anything really). It can also mean "to pay", usually in the combination "heng lui".

E.g.

- "wa cioh i e lui, wa siauN i si bo be heng wa liau" (= "I don't think he's going to pay back the money I lent him").

- "i saN le-pai cioh wa e sau-chiu liau, koh a-bue heng koh" (= "he's borrowed my broom for three weeks now, and still hasn't returned it").

- "to-loh khi/thang heng liu?" (= "where should I (go and) pay?").

In this last case, it's not borrowed money, but simply payment for goods or services.

"poe5" = "compensate" (usually money, but could be goods or time 'representing' money). As far as I can see, "poe" is a complete equivalent of English "compensate". In my usage, one doesn't need to have the "to-tuiN" (almost "shouldn't", but that's perhaps too strong).

E.g.

- "lu e kiaN co-phua wa cin-nia kui e tE-au, lu be(h) an-cuaN pue wa?" (= "Your child broke my very expensive tea-cup, how are you going to compensate me?").

- "A-io, i pang-kE nO le-pai, ta(k)-ta(k) jit tioh be co-kang - lang an-cuaN pue i a?" (= "Oh dear, he had to work every day of his 2-week holiday - how are we going to compensate him (for that)").
9) A cook (perhaps chu-chiah e lang 煮食个儂?)
There is the curious word "cong2/3-phO3/7" (Cantonese?/Hainanese?). The tones are uncertain for both syllables for the obvious reason: I only know the first syllable as the first syllable of this combination, and the last syllable as the last syllable of this combination. Without knowing them in other contexts (i.e. the first in final position, and the second in non-final), the tone of each could be one of a number of possibilities. (Of course, if it is borrowed from Cantonese or Hainanese, then the concept of the standing tone for these syllables doesn't even arise.)

Actually, I only know this word in the context of huge family celebrations. Whenever one of my great-aunts or great-uncles had a major birthday, then the entire extended family would come. This could be 10-15 nuclear families of 3-5 people per nuclear family (mercifully many of these - perhaps a half or a third - would be children or babies even). The celebration would always be a meal, and it would always be in the home of the person whose birthday it was. Obviously, the household couldn't cope with cooking for that many people, so a "cong2/3-phO3/7" would be engaged. He'd come very early in the morning already, and he and his team would be chopping and folding and boiling stuff, so that by the time guests arrived around lunchtime, the food would be ready. There would be 2 large dining tables (seating a total of 16-20), and people would eat "in shifts": as 2-3 people sitting next to one another - chatting - finished their meal, they would get up, and call the next lot of people to sit. So, over a period of 1-2 hours, several different people would sit at any single seat, and there was a constant stream of people calling out "ue! cui-cui a-bue ciah koh, koh u ui liau!" (= "hey, who hasn't eaten yet, there's space (free) now").

I take the trouble to describe the above partly for "local historical colour", but also to indicate that I only heard people speaking of a professional cook in this context (makes sense, if you think about it). I'll check with my parents whether the term "cong2/3-phO3/7" was restricted to this very specific context of a "free-lance cook/chef with his team of choppers", or whether it was used for any cook in general. Perhaps other readers of this forum are familiar with the word anyway.
10) A copy (of an original)
Here I definitely use the borrowed "kO7-pi1". Perhaps strange to tell you this, but it does give you information on the difference between "a word I don't know in 'pure' Hokkien but have a perfectly comfortable alternative which all the people in the society of that time around me would have understood", vs. "a word I don't know in 'pure' Hokkien and don't have any way of saying, so I would be forced to completely paraphrase or describe, or just switch to speaking English". "kO7-pi1" is of the former category.
Ah-bin
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Re: More words...about 300 I can't track down.

Post by Ah-bin »

Ah, thank you again Sim. Is the word a homophone of "kopi" meaning "coffee" as well?
SimL
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Re: More words...about 300 I can't track down.

Post by SimL »

Hi Ah-bin,

Haha, yes, that thought did cross my mind while writing what I wrote. "copy" would be "kO-pi" with the "open-o", and "coffee" would be "ko-pi" with the "closed-o".

I hate it when I spot typos later:

>> - "to-loh khi/thang heng liu?" (= "where should I (go and) pay?").

Should have been:

>> - "to-loh khi/thang heng lui?" (= "where should I (go and) pay?").

Were you familiar with "cong-phO" from Cantonese?
Ah-bin
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Re: More words...about 300 I can't track down.

Post by Ah-bin »

Were you familiar with "cong-phO" from Cantonese?
I have just tracked it down, and it's not Cantonese. 閩南話大辭典 writes it as chóng-phō• 總鋪 and says it is an old-fashioned way of saying a cook or chef in Amoy!
BTW, my standard word for "dishes" is "puaN-oaN" (plates and bowls), same principle as "oaN-tu". I was actually unfamiliar with "oaN-tu" - did you get that from a Penang Hokkien speaker? (Entirely possible of course, just asking.)
It's in one of the rhymes about the hard work involved in being a wife. Oáⁿ-tū 碗箸 – actually is bowls and chopsticks, and was used in the phrase sé óaⁿ-tū 洗碗箸 – to wash the dishes (because people wash the chopsticks as well as the bowls). puaN-oaN is more like the literal meaning of dishes or crockery, I suppose.
SimL
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Re: More words...about 300 I can't track down.

Post by SimL »

Ah-bin wrote:I have just tracked it down, and it's not Cantonese. 閩南話大辭典 writes it as chóng-phō• 總鋪 and says it is an old-fashioned way of saying a cook or chef in Amoy!
That is SO super cool! This seems to suggest that the Babas in Penang preserved an old-fashioned word. I'm always pleased when I see this sort of thing. :P.

I was told that "pan-gi" 便宜 is also "old-fashioned" by Hokkien standards, and that the more common word nowadays is "phiN1". And "pan-gi" is most certainly the most common word for "cheap" in Penang Hokkien.

Similarly for combing one's hair. I was told that "luah" is the normal word in most forms of Hokkien, and that "se1" 梳 conjures up images of aristocratic Ming Dynasty ladies combing their hair into an elaborate coiffure! Again, "se1" is my normal word for combing one's hair with a plastic comb.

Of course, I don't know to what extent either assertion is true. Can you confirm either of these from your knowledge of other varieties of Hokkien?
Ah-bin wrote:
BTW, my standard word for "dishes" is "puaN-oaN" (plates and bowls), same principle as "oaN-tu". I was actually unfamiliar with "oaN-tu" - did you get that from a Penang Hokkien speaker? (Entirely possible of course, just asking.)
It's in one of the rhymes about the hard work involved in being a wife. Oáⁿ-tū 碗箸 – actually is bowls and chopsticks, and was used in the phrase sé óaⁿ-tū 洗碗箸 – to wash the dishes (because people wash the chopsticks as well as the bowls). puaN-oaN is more like the literal meaning of dishes or crockery, I suppose.
Ok, thanks. Here we see 箸 preserved in Hokkien. I wonder why the "usual explanation" of the disappearance of 箸 in Mandarin didn't apply to Hokkien? I can't imagine that Hokkien-speaking boatmen were less superstitious than Mandarin-speaking ones. Has 箸 been retained as the normal word in the other Southern Sinitic languages too?
Ah-bin
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Re: More words...about 300 I can't track down.

Post by Ah-bin »

I was told that "pan-gi" 便宜 is also "old-fashioned" by Hokkien standards, and that the more common word nowadays is "phiN1". And "pan-gi" is most certainly the most common word for "cheap" in Penang Hokkien.
Actually, I only knew siok8 俗 for cheap before I learnt "pan-gi". It's the normal word in Taiwanese Hokkien. I'm not so sure about the combing.
Ok, thanks. Here we see 箸 preserved in Hokkien. I wonder why the "usual explanation" of the disappearance of 箸 in Mandarin didn't apply to Hokkien? I can't imagine that Hokkien-speaking boatmen were less superstitious than Mandarin-speaking ones. Has 箸 been retained as the normal word in the other Southern Sinitic languages too?
I thought that story was to do with boatmen on the Yangtze, actually. I went to have a look as I knew that Hoi-liuk 海陸 Hakka has [ts'u] 箸 and Vietnamese uses the old Sinitic loan Đũa.

Here are the others I found:
Moiyen 梅縣 Hakka has a choice between [k'uai tsak] and [ts'u tsak] 筷隻/箸隻 Teochiu has tö 箸. Min dialects mostly use 箸 (Hokchiu töü]). Dongguan had 箸 [tsy] Kaiping had [tsi]. The word is found, it seems, wherever there are out-of-the-way dialects. In addition to the list there is [tsia] from Fuchuan 富川 in Kwangsi, and [t'u] in Zhangping She 樟坪畲 (a type of Hakka) and Lichuan 黎川 and Shicheng 石城 in Kiangsi. Wenzhou has [dzei]. I've gone through most of my dialect materials now....
SimL
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Re: More words...about 300 I can't track down.

Post by SimL »

Hi Ah-bin,

Thanks for sharing your knowledge of the word for "chopstick" in the other South Sinitic languages/variants, and for looking up the ones you didn't personally know in your extensive reference materials.

Indeed, you're right, it was Yangtze boatmen who had the superstition about capsizing boats.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singaporean_Hokkien lists, under the heading Loanwords from other Chinese dialects: "平 (phiⁿ) Cheap ", which is, I guess, where that usage comes from. (And, indeed, it gives 俗 as the Taiwanese equivalent.) Unfortunately, the article doesn't say which dialect this is supposed to have come from.
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