SimL wrote:
In my family, the fixed expression for brushing teeth was "bin chui-khi" (抿嘴齒)
Yup, and in fact 嘴齒tshui-khi was actually the first way I learnt to say ‘teeth’, before I eventually migrated to 牙gE5 (mainly a knee-jerk reaction towards ‘over-colloquialism’ in Hokkien at that time!).
Hehe! I've posted here in the past that in my usage, gE5 only occurs in 2 compounds: 象牙 tshiauN7-gE5 (a large banana, which - from memory - remains green even when ripe), and 無牙婆 bo5-gE5-po5 (a toothless old woman) .
Mark Yong wrote:
SimL wrote:
I seem to vaguely remember seeing that 嘴 is not the correct character for "chui/tshui" = "mouth", but ok...
Actually, Sim, you have a point. A couple of my reference books (many of which Ah-bin no doubt shares) identify 喙 as the correct character for tshui2 instead of 嘴. The only reason I have shied away from 喙 so far is because I cannot yet reconcile the 反切fanqie reading for it, which would give it an initial h- rather than tsh-. That said, I make no claim that 嘴 is the correct character (as is the case with a number of words I have posted on this thread so far), but rather a provisional compromise.
Yes, 喙 was the character in the back of my subconscious. But... no need for blushing. My mentioning this was in no way trying to wag a finger at you for not using benzi, only to say that I wasn't sure myself... To be honest, I prefer 嘴, but solely because it's the one I can remember!
Thank you both again. That's ninety words so far, and lots of very useful background explanations.
Yup, and in fact 嘴齒 tshui-khi was actually the first way I learnt to say ‘teeth’, before I eventually migrated to 牙 gE5 (mainly a knee-jerk reaction towards ‘over-colloquialism’ in Hokkien at that time!)
But doesn't the gE5 originally mean "tusk" or "fang", whereas the morpheme represented by 齒 was the original Old Chinese word for a human tooth? GE5 is a colloquial latecomer as far as the human mouth is concerned.
It's very important for me to enter words in the dictionary that people actually use. What do native Penang Hokkien speakers actually say? 抿牙 bin2 gE5 or bin chui-khi" (抿嘴齒? Or do some people use one and some the other, in which case I should enter both?
As far as character usage goes, I've decided as well to do a general purge of characters with suspect origins in the dictionary, and all those for Malay loans (except 鐳) and just replace them with a square instead. Things like 厝 that are common usage can stay, but words with variants such as koh (still) or chhui (mouth) I am going to leave with a square, for others to discuss.
Okay, if i had to remove my personal biases and preferences and state objectively what I personally observed in Penang, then I would have to say that although both forms are used, 喙齒tshui-khi dominates (if I had to put a number, again being objective, I would say 70-75%), particularly when referring to just the noun ‘teeth’. Both 抿牙bin gE or 抿喙齒bin chui-khi are used, but again, the latter is more common. Even ‘toothbrush’ is called 喙齒抿tshui-khi bin (however, I tend to hear ‘toothpaste’ expressed as 牙膏gE-ko). And finally, ‘toothache’ is almost-always 喙齒疼tshui-khi thiaⁿ. Now I am starting to suspect that the use of 牙gE is a late influence of Mandarin/Cantonese!
That's great, thanks Mark. de Gijzel had chhùi-khí-ko □齒膏 for toothpaste, and I was a little suspicious of this.
Pages 475-80 of the article "The Austroasiatics in ancient South China, some lexical evidence" by Jerry Norman and Tsu-lin Mei was where I found out about the earliest meaning of the word. Here's a link to the pdf of the article.
And before we get into a discussion of some of the Hokkien words mentioned in the article (perhaps best saved for another thread) I might mention that many of the claims of the article relating to the Austroasiatic (AA) origins of the vocabulary have been argued against in later works. I do believe that the study of the historical development of the meaning of gê• in texts is fairly solid.
With regards to the character for "the3", you are spot on!
Mark Yong wrote:Hi, Sim - Just hazarding a guess: 倒退? the3/7 as in 退步the3-pO7 (“to retreat”).
It can be found on p546-547 of Douglas.
Among the compounds listed is "the3-sek4" (Douglas "to fade or lose colour, as cloth"). This term is known to me, but I just never associated the "the3" of "the3-sek4" with the "the3" of "to2-the3".
Ah-bin wrote:
4) Permit, licence is this toaⁿ單 or chóa 紙 or jī 字 all of them seem to be used for certificates or permits
I have heard toaN used in the context of a jeep permit for Penang Hill.
8 ) Politics 政府个物件 chèng-hú ê míh-kiàⁿ or maybe chèng-tī 政治 (the Amoy/Taiwanese form)? He doesn't like talking about politics (I bo sukah kong cheng-hu e mih-kiaN)?
Definitely cheng-ti, as in chham cheng-ti for to go into politics.
I checked with a couple of Penang friends, just to be sure. No, it appears 揉jiu5 and 挼jue5 are two different words. 揉jiu5, as you correctly pointed out, is found in 揉塗跤jiu5 thO2-kha1, i.e. “mop the floor”.
For me, "jiu5" and "jue5" are completely different:
- "jiu5" is wiping, almost definitely with something wet, e.g. a cloth or a mop.
- "jue5" is pressing/rubbing, is almost never wet (or only wet by co-incidence), and is done with the fingers.
More detailed usage notes:
"jiu5" is most certainly the most normal way to translate the English verb "to mop", as Andrew says. So, "jiu-thO-kha" is just about the most common circumstance where one would come across the verb "jiu5". But (in my usage), it is most definitely not limited to mopping. If one is on one's hands and knees, holding a wet cloth to the floor and doing long sweeping motions with one's arms, this certainly would also be "jiu5" (perhaps the traditional Chinese way of getting a floor really clean, before the introduction of mops). And if one takes a small wet cloth and wipes down a window sill, then this too would be "jiu5". But there has to be at least a little bit of "(wide) sweeping motion" to it though (as is obviously the case with a mop). If you took a (small) damp cloth and rubbed it back and forth over a small surface area (e.g. your spectacles, or the mouth-piece of the telephone), then this would not be "jiu5".
For "jue5", I think the rubbing (i.e. repeatedness) is secondary, and the pressing is primary. So, for my example of squashing bugs, a single press of the thumb or index finger to squash an ant would already be "jue5". The fact that rubbing is strongly associated with it is probably because rubbing the eyes would be one of the most common circumstances where this type of pressing with the fingers occurs, and when doing this, one does it more than once.
I haven't counted yet, but I think this is the tenth group, which means we have worked through 100 words already. Some of them I have found in other places as we've been going along. Some I think don't have a single equivalent word, which is only natural. Some of the others I have even found Malay expressions used for. Thanks again everyone for your help, I hope it's not too much trouble. Breaking it up like this makes it into a kind of Hokkien quiz, I hope.
1) Rank or station
2) To react or respond
3) To relax I have pang leng
4) To reveal
5) To ring a bell I suppose this depends on what kind of bell it is. A doorbell I guess would be pressed in Hokkien rather than rung. A handbell or those little bells used in Taosit ceremonies would be something different. The ringing of a bell itself should be tân, right?
6) Rule I know law in compounds, 法 hoát, but have no idea how to say rules, like the rules of a game, or the school rules (these will probably be different in Hokkien anyway).
7) Sale (reduced prices) is this kiám-kè• 減價 or something like that?
8 ) Sesame something containing môa 蔴 for sure? Is it chi-môa 芝麻 as in Taiwanese. Hoe about the oil, is it 芝蔴油 chi-môa-iû or just 蔴油 môa-iû?
9) Shower of rain in Mandarin 陣 is used is it the same in PGHK i.e. chít-tīn 一陣?
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