Wow...that's fifty-two words from the original list, not counting all the others that have been provided in the thread, which must be at least 20. I'm sure some of them, like sunscreen, simply have no commonly-used Penang word.
Here is a list of what I have so far, as promised.
Backwards - tò-thè 倒退
Bandage I can confirm Pau-pò· 包布
Bankrupt pok-kai (Cantonese)
To compensate, pay back - pôe 賠
Condensed milk - gû-leng-ko 牛[月能]膏
A cook - chóng-phō· 總鋪
A copy (of an original) ko·pi
To correct (mistakes) ké· 改 actually means to make an improvement or change for the better
Curtain for window thang-á-pò· 窗仔布 bamboo curtain for a door mûi-nî 門簾
Debt - khiàm-siàu 欠數
Development, to develop hoat-tián 發展
To display pâi 排
Drawer/Drawers thoah 屜
The tip of something chiam 尖
Extension (phone) tiān-ōa sóaⁿ 電話綫
Extra koh-khah- 擱較 or ke· 加 or chhun 剩 depending on context
To decorate pâi-súi 排媠
To defeat someone, beat someone at something. Phah-iâⁿ 撲贏 or Phah-tó 撲倒
Degree, level. kip 級 for school levels
To delay (as in to put something off) thoa 拖
Ferry - "ferry"
Fortress - siâⁿ 城
To guess - siāuⁿ-khoàⁿ 想看?
Fungus - kó• 菇
To greet somebody - formal word for "address" chheng-ho• 稱呼 more commonly kiò 叫 the greeting of someone off a train or plane, which is chih 接
To guarantee, a guarantee - Pó-ke· 保家
To hinder, or block - I found this one in Tan Choon Hoe Cháh 截 – to block or hinder, to stop someone: Khah mē· cháh i! 較猛截伊 Stop him, quickly!
To include/including pau 包
To last, endure - Ē tòng kú 會擋久 or tahan
Lotus seeds - liân-chí 蓮籽
A lid - kòa 蓋
Mailman/postman - Pun-phe ê lâng 分批个儂
Mist bū 霧
Mold kó• 菇
to pack - the ubiquitous Khioh
To offend tek-chōe 得罪 to insult
On time Chún-sî 準時
Permit, licence toaⁿ單 or lái-se•n
A pin (with a flat head) pin-chiam □針
Politics - Chèng-tī 政治
To prevent now for this one I always use "hō• + somebody/something + mài + v." e.g hō• i mài cháu 與伊□走 "prevent him from leaving" or
To scrub Bín 抿
Sale (reduced prices) kiám-kè• 減價
Sesame 蔴 môa as in 蔴油 môa-iû
a Skewer chhiam 籤 (yes it was the bamboo one I was thinking of
To smuggle cháu-hóe 走貨 yes...this was the one I had!
To summon - kiò lâng lâi/khì 叫儂來/去
Times (x) - sēng 乘
To start a car or engine - i think "start"
Style khoán 款
Surroundings - (khoân)-kèng (環)境
More words...about 300 I can't track down.
Re: More words...about 300 I can't track down.
I checked with my parents, and I'm happy to say that this produced quite a lot of useful information.
---
"to change one's mind"
They said that there's a term, used only in a very specific and restricted context, namely pien3-sim1 變心.
This is used in matters of the heart, where a husband/wife (or, in the modern context, a boyfriend/girlfriend) has a change of heart, and (specifically) turns from being positive about their partner to being negative about them.
This has some parallels to one of the Chinese-English dictionaries I consulted, where Mandarin 變心 apparently means "cease to be faithful". Furthermore, www.nciku.cn (an excellent site for Mandarin compounds) gives: 变心 (變心) "cease to be loyal" and "cease to be faithful; break faith; transfer one's affection to another person".
Unfortunately, I couldn't find such an entry in either Douglas or Barclay.
I realise that this is slightly different from "to change one's mind", but still all very interesting to investigate.
---
"a clothes peg"
My mother gave this as ngEh8-san1-e5 夾衫的.
Both parents agreed that this was more like a description than a term, because (they explained that) clothes-pegs were not used when they were young.
In my father's case, clothes were hung to dry on bamboo poles - somewhat like the way we see in photos or films of the occupants of Hong Kong flats (the difference will become obvious as you read on). Apparently, shirts were put on the poles by passing the pole through the sleeves of both arms, and trousers by passing the pole through one of the trouser legs. (I didn't think to ask my father how other items other than shirts and trousers were made to stay on the poles!) He went on to explain that there were then also 2 T-shaped stands, with the top surface of the T's having a series of little indentations at regular intervals, where the bamboo poles could partially rest in, so that they wouldn't "roll off" the T. The two stands were put at a distance apart which was slightly less than the length of the poles, and the poles were then rested in parallel between the two stands. The whole scenario made sense to me, I hope it makes sense to the other readers.
In my mother's case, they had a totally different system. They had two thin ropes / thick strings which were wound around one another in a sort of helix-spiral arrangement (think of two pieces of string laid next to one another, and then both twisted around the long axis). This created a double strand, each strand spiraling around the other. This double strand was then stretched between the opposite walls of a room (or outside, between two objects) to hold them in the air. When you wanted to hang anything up, you just picked an arbitrary spot in the ropes and pulled the two strands apart. You then inserted a corner of the item of clothing you wanted to hang up into the resulting "hole". You then let go, and the "twisted strands" then sprung together again (by the natural tension of the twisting), grasping the corner of the item of clothing which you had inserted into the hole.
[By the most remarkable of co-incidences, I stumbled across this http://ezyline.com.au/ several months ago! Google "Image Search" gives a better idea of how this actually works: http://www.google.nl/search?num=10&hl=e ... aY7ida6IsI ]
In both my father's and my mother's case, there was no need for clothes-pegs, and hence this object was unknown in their youth.
I found this all very interesting to learn from the cultural-historical point of view, but also as it threw light on why there is more of a "description" than a "name" for a clothes-peg.
---
"complete"
Both parents produced uan5-cuan5 for "complete", without any hesitation.
This I then found in Douglas: (p349, under 完) "oan5-tsoan5 complete and in right order (v. tsoan5)"; (p584, under 全) "oan5-tsoan5 complete, to complete". So: 完全.
---
"to confess"
Both parents produced jin7-cue7 for "to confess", without any hesitation.
This I then found in Douglas: (p183, under 認) "jin7-tsoe7 to confess guilt"; (p587, under 罪) "jin7-tsoe7 to confess guilt or fault". So: 認罪.
---
"contagious"
They gave a circumlocution which seems reasonably satisfactory to me: e kue lang e 會過人的.
---
"a cook"
They confirmed that cong2-phO3/7 was not just a free-lance cook, cooking in people's homes for their birthdays, but indeed, any cook at all, in a restaurant. However, they stressed that this should only be used for "real" cooks, who can cook a whole variety of dishes. A stall-holder, who cooks one particular dish (or a couple of variants of the same dish) is not considered to be a cong2-phO3/7.
I found in Douglas: (p588, under 總) "tsong2-phO3 a ship's cook"; (p400, under 舖) "tsong2-phO3 a ship's cook". So: 總舖.
Notes:
1. Douglas has phO3, not phO7.
2. Douglas has 舖, not 鋪.
I also found it interesting that the more restricted meaning of "a ship's cook" in Amoy Hokkien had been generalized to be any sort of a cook in Penang Hokkien. One can imagine a historical scenario where - over a period of decades - the original ship's cooks from Amoy settled down as professional cooks in Penang and retained the name of their job, even though they were no longer cooking on ships.
---
"a debt"
Both parents produced / agreed on khiam3-cue3/7 for "a debt", after some hesitation.
This I then found in Douglas: (p272, under 欠) "khiam3-che3 to owe a debt (v che3)"; (p31, under 債) "khiam3-che3 to owe a debt". So: 欠債.
The difference between my parents' cue and Douglas ce is of course only the ue vs. e variation between Amoy and Ciang-Ciu.
---
"development / to develop"
Both parents knew huat4-tiEn2 發展, but said that in Hokkien, it has a slightly more restricted meaning than "develop". It means "prosper, flourish (as in a business)". [The motivation for this shift in meaning is clear: most developments which one talks about are developments in a positive direction.]
I was then very pleased to have this partially confirmed in Barclay (p68) "hoat4-tien2 to expand; to evolve; to prosper".
---
"disaster"
In my father's Penang Hokkien usage, he makes a distinction between hong5-hiam2 and gui5-hiam2. He explained that the former is "disaster", and the latter is "dangerous".
My mother doesn't make this distinction in her Amoy-ish usage.
Douglas has: (p130, under 險) "hong5-hiam2 dangerous, in great danger, as affair or disease"; (p130, under 險) "gui5-hiam2 dangerous"; (p153, under hong5 [no character]) "hong5-hiam2 dangerous, as disease, or as state of matters"; (p113, under 危) "gui5-hiam2 dangerous, danger".
So, it appears that (unsurprisingly) my mother's usage matches Douglas. It is unclear to what extent my father's distinction is widely made in Penang Hokkien. If it is, then you have a perfect translation for "disaster".
---
"divided by"
My father feels that pun1 is indeed perfectly satisfactory for "to divide by / divided by". He gives pun1 san1-hun7 分三分 as the equivalent of "to divide by 3 / divided by 3". He also gives a related example: pun1 kE1-hue2 for "to divide property (as an inheritance)".
This is confirmed in Douglas (p122, under "he2") "to divide the property and goods, as after father's death" 分家夥/火/伙.
---
That's it for the moment. I think it might be a bit difficult to get further answers from my parents in the coming period, but it seems that it's worth waiting for!
---
"to change one's mind"
They said that there's a term, used only in a very specific and restricted context, namely pien3-sim1 變心.
This is used in matters of the heart, where a husband/wife (or, in the modern context, a boyfriend/girlfriend) has a change of heart, and (specifically) turns from being positive about their partner to being negative about them.
This has some parallels to one of the Chinese-English dictionaries I consulted, where Mandarin 變心 apparently means "cease to be faithful". Furthermore, www.nciku.cn (an excellent site for Mandarin compounds) gives: 变心 (變心) "cease to be loyal" and "cease to be faithful; break faith; transfer one's affection to another person".
Unfortunately, I couldn't find such an entry in either Douglas or Barclay.
I realise that this is slightly different from "to change one's mind", but still all very interesting to investigate.
---
"a clothes peg"
My mother gave this as ngEh8-san1-e5 夾衫的.
Both parents agreed that this was more like a description than a term, because (they explained that) clothes-pegs were not used when they were young.
In my father's case, clothes were hung to dry on bamboo poles - somewhat like the way we see in photos or films of the occupants of Hong Kong flats (the difference will become obvious as you read on). Apparently, shirts were put on the poles by passing the pole through the sleeves of both arms, and trousers by passing the pole through one of the trouser legs. (I didn't think to ask my father how other items other than shirts and trousers were made to stay on the poles!) He went on to explain that there were then also 2 T-shaped stands, with the top surface of the T's having a series of little indentations at regular intervals, where the bamboo poles could partially rest in, so that they wouldn't "roll off" the T. The two stands were put at a distance apart which was slightly less than the length of the poles, and the poles were then rested in parallel between the two stands. The whole scenario made sense to me, I hope it makes sense to the other readers.
In my mother's case, they had a totally different system. They had two thin ropes / thick strings which were wound around one another in a sort of helix-spiral arrangement (think of two pieces of string laid next to one another, and then both twisted around the long axis). This created a double strand, each strand spiraling around the other. This double strand was then stretched between the opposite walls of a room (or outside, between two objects) to hold them in the air. When you wanted to hang anything up, you just picked an arbitrary spot in the ropes and pulled the two strands apart. You then inserted a corner of the item of clothing you wanted to hang up into the resulting "hole". You then let go, and the "twisted strands" then sprung together again (by the natural tension of the twisting), grasping the corner of the item of clothing which you had inserted into the hole.
[By the most remarkable of co-incidences, I stumbled across this http://ezyline.com.au/ several months ago! Google "Image Search" gives a better idea of how this actually works: http://www.google.nl/search?num=10&hl=e ... aY7ida6IsI ]
In both my father's and my mother's case, there was no need for clothes-pegs, and hence this object was unknown in their youth.
I found this all very interesting to learn from the cultural-historical point of view, but also as it threw light on why there is more of a "description" than a "name" for a clothes-peg.
---
"complete"
Both parents produced uan5-cuan5 for "complete", without any hesitation.
This I then found in Douglas: (p349, under 完) "oan5-tsoan5 complete and in right order (v. tsoan5)"; (p584, under 全) "oan5-tsoan5 complete, to complete". So: 完全.
---
"to confess"
Both parents produced jin7-cue7 for "to confess", without any hesitation.
This I then found in Douglas: (p183, under 認) "jin7-tsoe7 to confess guilt"; (p587, under 罪) "jin7-tsoe7 to confess guilt or fault". So: 認罪.
---
"contagious"
They gave a circumlocution which seems reasonably satisfactory to me: e kue lang e 會過人的.
---
"a cook"
They confirmed that cong2-phO3/7 was not just a free-lance cook, cooking in people's homes for their birthdays, but indeed, any cook at all, in a restaurant. However, they stressed that this should only be used for "real" cooks, who can cook a whole variety of dishes. A stall-holder, who cooks one particular dish (or a couple of variants of the same dish) is not considered to be a cong2-phO3/7.
I found in Douglas: (p588, under 總) "tsong2-phO3 a ship's cook"; (p400, under 舖) "tsong2-phO3 a ship's cook". So: 總舖.
Notes:
1. Douglas has phO3, not phO7.
2. Douglas has 舖, not 鋪.
I also found it interesting that the more restricted meaning of "a ship's cook" in Amoy Hokkien had been generalized to be any sort of a cook in Penang Hokkien. One can imagine a historical scenario where - over a period of decades - the original ship's cooks from Amoy settled down as professional cooks in Penang and retained the name of their job, even though they were no longer cooking on ships.
---
"a debt"
Both parents produced / agreed on khiam3-cue3/7 for "a debt", after some hesitation.
This I then found in Douglas: (p272, under 欠) "khiam3-che3 to owe a debt (v che3)"; (p31, under 債) "khiam3-che3 to owe a debt". So: 欠債.
The difference between my parents' cue and Douglas ce is of course only the ue vs. e variation between Amoy and Ciang-Ciu.
---
"development / to develop"
Both parents knew huat4-tiEn2 發展, but said that in Hokkien, it has a slightly more restricted meaning than "develop". It means "prosper, flourish (as in a business)". [The motivation for this shift in meaning is clear: most developments which one talks about are developments in a positive direction.]
I was then very pleased to have this partially confirmed in Barclay (p68) "hoat4-tien2 to expand; to evolve; to prosper".
---
"disaster"
In my father's Penang Hokkien usage, he makes a distinction between hong5-hiam2 and gui5-hiam2. He explained that the former is "disaster", and the latter is "dangerous".
My mother doesn't make this distinction in her Amoy-ish usage.
Douglas has: (p130, under 險) "hong5-hiam2 dangerous, in great danger, as affair or disease"; (p130, under 險) "gui5-hiam2 dangerous"; (p153, under hong5 [no character]) "hong5-hiam2 dangerous, as disease, or as state of matters"; (p113, under 危) "gui5-hiam2 dangerous, danger".
So, it appears that (unsurprisingly) my mother's usage matches Douglas. It is unclear to what extent my father's distinction is widely made in Penang Hokkien. If it is, then you have a perfect translation for "disaster".
---
"divided by"
My father feels that pun1 is indeed perfectly satisfactory for "to divide by / divided by". He gives pun1 san1-hun7 分三分 as the equivalent of "to divide by 3 / divided by 3". He also gives a related example: pun1 kE1-hue2 for "to divide property (as an inheritance)".
This is confirmed in Douglas (p122, under "he2") "to divide the property and goods, as after father's death" 分家夥/火/伙.
---
That's it for the moment. I think it might be a bit difficult to get further answers from my parents in the coming period, but it seems that it's worth waiting for!
Re: More words...about 300 I can't track down.
I am going to steal some of Sim’s thunder here! 
1. Going by the terminology ngEh8-saⁿ1-e5, I am inclined to think that the characters would be 壓衫. But I am not sure if ngEh8 is a valid reading for 壓.
2. Sim, your putting forth the character 夾 rings a few bells for me! Now I am starting to vaguely recall a word kiap4 for ‘clip’, which I believe corresponds to 夾，which means precisely the noun or verb ‘clip/peg’.
Since we are on the topic of clothes and clothes pegs, here is one to complete the category: 披衫 phi1-saⁿ1 “to dry clothes (by spreading them out under the sun)”.
I believe the characters for kE1-hue3 should be 家賄. 家夥/家伙 means ‘chap’ or ‘fellow’. Confusing, since both compounds are homonyms!
Here’s me doing my benzi-OCD again! This brings up a couple of interesting points:SimL wrote:
My mother gave this as ngEh8-san1-e5 夾衫的.
1. Going by the terminology ngEh8-saⁿ1-e5, I am inclined to think that the characters would be 壓衫. But I am not sure if ngEh8 is a valid reading for 壓.
2. Sim, your putting forth the character 夾 rings a few bells for me! Now I am starting to vaguely recall a word kiap4 for ‘clip’, which I believe corresponds to 夾，which means precisely the noun or verb ‘clip/peg’.
Since we are on the topic of clothes and clothes pegs, here is one to complete the category: 披衫 phi1-saⁿ1 “to dry clothes (by spreading them out under the sun)”.
I am not sure if it is due to Mandarin-ism, but quite a few of my Chinese-education Penang friends do use the word 傳 tshuan5 “to transmit”.SimL wrote:
"contagious"
They gave a circumlocution which seems reasonably satisfactory to me: e kue lang e 會過人的.
This is where I bravely attempt to dispute Douglas’s choice of characters!SimL wrote:
This is confirmed in Douglas (p122, under "he2") "to divide the property and goods, as after father's death" 分家夥/火/伙.
I believe the characters for kE1-hue3 should be 家賄. 家夥/家伙 means ‘chap’ or ‘fellow’. Confusing, since both compounds are homonyms!Ah-bin wrote:
Surroundings. Mr Cheah's book gives khoân-kèng 環境 but does anyone actually say this?
I should also add that after my previous post on 境 keng2, I realised that I might have mixed it up with 景 keng2 (as in 風景 hong7-keng2 “scenery/landscape”). That is probably the standalone morpheme keng2 that I was thinking of, not 境.Mark Yong wrote:
In my limited experience, most Penangites I have spoken to tend to just say 境 keng2, as in 即爿兮境眞正秀 tsit-peng e keng tsin-tsiaⁿ sui. I suppose context allows for safely dropping the 環 khuan3 prefix.
Re: More words...about 300 I can't track down.
Many thanks for going through all those Sim.
I'm sure there are ways to express changing one's mind, in the same way you explained "delay" such as a structure like "téng-táu ài...tongkim mài liáu".
As for ezyline, I actually saw an advert on TV for them here a while back that exhorted us to "Live PEG FREE!!!" as if pegs were huge oppressive nuisance in our lives.
This also reminded me of some pandang about not walking under women's underwear hung out on poles. Or was it not walking under someone's washing in general. People I talked to in Amoy had never heard of this, I'm not sure even Taiwanese have heard of it.
I'm sure there are ways to express changing one's mind, in the same way you explained "delay" such as a structure like "téng-táu ài...tongkim mài liáu".
Yes, and very many words and concepts are like this in Penang I think (including licences and police and court cases and so on) which is why there are either descriptions or loan words used for such things. It hadn't even occurred to me that other places in the world wouldn't have had clothes pegs a long time ago. We used to have wooden ones that looked like tall dolls with two legs when I was little, before plastic ones.In both my father's and my mother's case, there was no need for clothes-pegs, and hence this object was unknown in their youth.
I found this all very interesting to learn from the cultural-historical point of view, but also as it threw light on why there is more of a "description" than a "name" for a clothes-peg.
As for ezyline, I actually saw an advert on TV for them here a while back that exhorted us to "Live PEG FREE!!!" as if pegs were huge oppressive nuisance in our lives.
This also reminded me of some pandang about not walking under women's underwear hung out on poles. Or was it not walking under someone's washing in general. People I talked to in Amoy had never heard of this, I'm not sure even Taiwanese have heard of it.
I've used 家賄 myself for this. Is the "chap" 家伙 actually used in Penang? I've always considered it a very colloquial northern expression, used in a similar way to 佬 in southern China. Hokkien doesn't seem to have that kind of slightly pejorative term for people. 仙 sian comes close in some compounds, but has a worse connotation than 佬 I think.This is where I bravely attempt to dispute Douglas’s choice of characters! I believe the characters for kE1-hue3 should be 家賄. 家夥/家伙 means ‘chap’ or ‘fellow’. Confusing, since both compounds are homonyms!
Re: More words...about 300 I can't track down.
You are right, I should have clarified that it isn’t used in Penang Hokkien (not that I have heard, anyway). While it is used in Mandarin, the first time I heard 傢夥/家伙 was actually in 客家 Hakka, when I was still a kid. I don’t think any of the other Southern dialects actually use it.Ah-bin wrote:
Is the "chap" 家伙 actually used in Penang? I've always considered it a very colloquial northern expression, used in a similar way to 佬 in southern China.
Re: More words...about 300 I can't track down.
Many menarik discussions here, guys -- much to learn. Most of the words being thrown around have been pan-Hoklo, i.e. Taiwan-relevant, etc. So the lexicon is very consistent.
Someone from Alor Setar suggested to me that the reason why TWnese have such trouble understanding Penang Hokkien is b/c the tone sandhi rules are different: citation tones are used more in PgHK. Makes sense to me!
Interesting, but my 白話小辞典 says this is a loan from JPnese.
I doubt it's still true.
Question, though: what's the word for GETTING DOWN ON 1'S HANDS AND KNEES in this context? Kùi?
The lexical similarity between Sinitic Vietnamese and Sinitic Hoklo (esp. the pre-Classic layers of both) amazes me sometimes. As another example, FATE / DESTINY translates as vậnmệnh 運命. Too bad there hasn't been more "political similarity", else we might be living in some interesting times. Bổtiạnn nạcún kha'cá Tiỏciu ka' Bảnlảm siọktữ kảng séng, cit cụn itchè lóng ễ bổ kảng. (Pe' sianntiạu ể Pẹ'oẹdị.
)
Nạ ũ lảng bơ' lải tữ Melan kà Hộ'lố bủn ka' Tn̉glảngdị, m̃ cai kám ễ ũ chĩtiủnn? Lín áncoánn khoànnhoat?
Tữ Tải'oản, kèsiàu kẽ bổ lảng kóng "phinn", goá te' siũnn hê "phinn" bổ tiạnn sỉ ùi Tiỏciu'oẹ sa ·lải ·ể...
Someone from Alor Setar suggested to me that the reason why TWnese have such trouble understanding Penang Hokkien is b/c the tone sandhi rules are different: citation tones are used more in PgHK. Makes sense to me!
In TW it has both meanings, although in its PROSPERING meaning it seems to cause cognitive dissonance for people whose lead lingo is Mandarin, and they may suppress it into their subconscious.Both parents knew huat4-tiEn2 發展, but said that in Hokkien, it has a slightly more restricted meaning than "develop". It means "prosper, flourish (as in a business)".
Interesting, but my 白話小辞典 says this is a loan from JPnese.
Isn't ca̍h「閘」?Khah mē· cháh i! 較猛截伊
Mark, U call mochi "moâcí" in M'sia? In TW they're called moâcî, sometimes written 麻糬, other times with a 米 radical on the 麻 too. Oftentimes they're marketed as a 名產 of the orang asli, but AFAIK the food and the word are both JPnese loans. And no one seems to say *moâcû or *moâcîr...if what we know as mua5-tsi2 today began life as the Japanese 蔴糬 mochi. I think I shall defer that to a native Taiwanese to shed some light on this... amhoanna?
Same usage in TW, according to 白話小. I remember people in Taipak in the 90s saying this was how Hakka women cleaned their floors.If one is on one's hands and knees, holding a wet cloth to the floor and doing long sweeping motions with one's arms, this certainly would also be "jiu5"
I doubt it's still true. Question, though: what's the word for GETTING DOWN ON 1'S HANDS AND KNEES in this context? Kùi?
That sounds 100% right.I am starting to suspect that the use of 牙 gE is a late influence of Mandarin/Cantonese!
Hebat!I recall on the wall of one of the elevators at the Macallum Street Ghaut (五條路 gO7 tiau5 lO7) flats, someone wrote the words “Am Bong Kui” (Romanised)
侪謝!Okay, blanks temporarily removed!
What tone category is "thut"?iong7 tam7-pO3 thut3-thut7 tsit8-E7.
I've always assumed this was a cognate of tīr / 箸. Is it?Vietnamese uses the old Sinitic loan Đũa
The lexical similarity between Sinitic Vietnamese and Sinitic Hoklo (esp. the pre-Classic layers of both) amazes me sometimes. As another example, FATE / DESTINY translates as vậnmệnh 運命. Too bad there hasn't been more "political similarity", else we might be living in some interesting times. Bổtiạnn nạcún kha'cá Tiỏciu ka' Bảnlảm siọktữ kảng séng, cit cụn itchè lóng ễ bổ kảng. (Pe' sianntiạu ể Pẹ'oẹdị.
)Cán!Practically everyone was talking Hokkien, from young children to the elderly.... If these people had been Penang Hokkiens,
Nạ ũ lảng bơ' lải tữ Melan kà Hộ'lố bủn ka' Tn̉glảngdị, m̃ cai kám ễ ũ chĩtiủnn? Lín áncoánn khoànnhoat?
Unfortunately, the article doesn't say which dialect this is supposed to have come from.
Hê sĩ Tảikàupõ ễ sủtián ·la', cit cụn dú lải dú ciảucủinn.I found this very useful online dictionary http://twblg.dict.edu.tw/holodict_new/index.html. According to this, phiⁿ is 偏 and not 平.
Tữ Tải'oản, kèsiàu kẽ bổ lảng kóng "phinn", goá te' siũnn hê "phinn" bổ tiạnn sỉ ùi Tiỏciu'oẹ sa ·lải ·ể...
Re: More words...about 300 I can't track down.
I've been writing 賰 for some time now, b/c everyone else was doing it, but according to the TWMOE:While we are on the topic of chhun1, would the character for it happen to be 賰 or 伸?
So, basically, "we must follow the semantic boundaries of Mandarin". Such pandering, such Mandering. Ná ễ chợ (𢶀)bổ cịt ể "kứ tiongcáinn" ể SMILIE?! Khàu iau, línpẽ kàn phoà lín niả! Chuiciàn dị hõ in phian kà ánne, cinciànn ũ iánn, goán soe kà ũ kàu kạ', kàn...!嚴格說來，「伸」才是 tshun 的本字。... 不過，因為「伸」的「伸展」義是台華共有的，而引申的「剩餘」義是臺灣閩南語獨有，若以「伸」做為「有餘」的 tshun 的用字，可能會造成學習困擾，因此，只列為 tshun 的異用字。
But we've got to remember that there's a strong faction of "anti-Manderers" working at or with the TWMOE as well. It could be worse, I guess.
Re: More words...about 300 I can't track down.
I really should fix my tone numbering! Okay, as far as I can recall in Penang, it is pronounced mùa7（陽去）tsī1 （陰平）. Either there is tone sandhi at work here, or the two morphemes historically do not to 芝蔴, but are just written as such today - this I am not sure. No mua-cu or mua-cə in Penang, either.amhoanna wrote:
Mark, U call mochi "moâcí" in M'sia?
Okay, again I am not 100% certain. But if I recall correctly, if the morpheme is by itself, then it is thùt4 （陰入）. If it is repeated, then it is thũt8-thùt4（the first one being 陽入）, i.e. whatever it is, the tone of the second morpheme is lower than that of the first.amhoanna wrote:
What tone category is "thut"?
I think we might have been reading off the same article:amhoanna wrote:
I've been writing 賰 for some time now, b/c everyone else was doing it, but according to the TWMOE:
http://140.111.56.95/hanji/annesia/pdf/ ... 464pdf.pdf
Ummm... sounds a little like fitting a square peg into a round hole! But I guess the TWMOE currently being the current de facto authority on all things Hoklo punji, well...根據《廣韻》「賰」的音讀是「式允切」, 意思是「富有」。在音讀上, 和 tshun 不相符, 但在意義上卻還說得通。而且「賰」的義符「貝」, 就是錢財的意思。古代以「貝殼」做為貨幣,所以「財貨」都以「貝」為部用字解析首。「賰」的聲符「春」發音也是 tshun, 所以用來做為 tshun 的用字, 非常有助於學習、使用。
Re: More words...about 300 I can't track down.
Here I go again. This time I am at the end of the first list and have started on a second.
1) Tidy adj. i.e. the room is very tidy
2) Tukung, like an expert or artisan.... is the word saihu used?
3) To urge or push for
4) Widow something with 寡 perhaps maybe koa-hu 寡婦?
5) Worn out (clothes) chhēng-phòa? for other things is it just V+phòa
6) Work day or weekday I know pài-lák lépài 拜六禮拜, but what about the other days
7) To yawn phah-something, I guess
8 ) a dozen is this chít-lô?
9) a part or component - this is leng something, I think.
10) a switch
Thanks again eveyone. The dictionary is now 230 pages long. Only 70 more to go before revision!
1) Tidy adj. i.e. the room is very tidy
2) Tukung, like an expert or artisan.... is the word saihu used?
3) To urge or push for
4) Widow something with 寡 perhaps maybe koa-hu 寡婦?
5) Worn out (clothes) chhēng-phòa? for other things is it just V+phòa
6) Work day or weekday I know pài-lák lépài 拜六禮拜, but what about the other days
7) To yawn phah-something, I guess
8 ) a dozen is this chít-lô?
9) a part or component - this is leng something, I think.
10) a switch
Thanks again eveyone. The dictionary is now 230 pages long. Only 70 more to go before revision!
Re: More words...about 300 I can't track down.
I still have and use wooden ones, which I much prefer to plastic ones. They are of the "modern" design though - each peg consists of 2 wooden "halves", held together by the tension of a wire "spring". In the middle of each "half" of the peg is a short "groove" (along the short axis, perpendicular to the long axis), and the ends of the metal "spring" rest in it (I'm sure everyone knows this design).Ah-bin wrote: It hadn't even occurred to me that other places in the world wouldn't have had clothes pegs a long time ago. We used to have wooden ones that looked like tall dolls with two legs when I was little, before plastic ones.
I get the feeling that the doll ones you spoke about don't have a spring at all, right? The space between the two legs is tapered - wide at the bottom of the peg, and narrowing as it gets towards the top of the peg, and it's the pushing action of wedging the cloth/material between the washing-line itself and two legs of the peg which holds the item of clothing in position. I.e. the further you push the peg "down", the tighter the peg grips the cloth to the washing-line. I have a vague memory of seeing pegs like this.
LOL! Agreed.Ah-bin wrote: As for ezyline, I actually saw an advert on TV for them here a while back that exhorted us to "Live PEG FREE!!!" as if pegs were huge oppressive nuisance in our lives.
But, having said that, it *does* seem to be quite convenient not to have to reach over for the nearest peg, but to be able to just have the clothes stay at any desired spot...
Doesn't ring a very clear bell with me, but seems very vaguely familiar. I'll have to check with my relatives. BTW, in Penang Baba Hokkien, it's "pan1-tang1" with a "-t-", not a "-d-", and I believe it's the same in Malay.Ah-bin wrote: This also reminded me of some pandang about not walking under women's underwear hung out on poles.
Thanks for explaining this Mark. What you're saying makes total sense.Mark Yong wrote: This is where I bravely attempt to dispute Douglas’s choice of characters!
A minor point - I believe that the characters in Douglas were provided by someone else, some time after the original publication of the dictionary. I have no idea if Douglas was aware of this happening and if he was, whether he approved of it at all. I recall that one of his original standpoints was that Hokkien was an independent language, perfectly capable of standing on its own (like Vietnamese), without the need for characters. But I'm sure we both (as well as the other regular posters) are conscious of this and use the term "the characters in Douglas" or "the characters Douglas gives" as a convenient shorthand. I just wanted to mention it explicitly here for the less frequent readers, who might not follow things as closely as the regular posters.
That's certainly how I would say it: "i kui ti thO-kha, ti(t)-ti(t)-jiu" ("he/she was on his/her hands and knees, 'mopping' away").amhoanna wrote: Question, though: what's the word for GETTING DOWN ON 1'S HANDS AND KNEES in this context? Kùi?
Either I wasn't looking carefully enough, or a new column has been added since I wrote my comment (probably the former). The article as it now stands says it comes from Teochew.amhoanna wrote:Hê sĩ Tảikàupõ ễ sủtián ·la', cit cụn dú lải dú ciảucủinn.SimL wrote:Unfortunately, the article doesn't say which dialect this is supposed to have come from.
I found this very useful online dictionary http://twblg.dict.edu.tw/holodict_new/index.html. According to this, phiⁿ is 偏 and not 平.
I have to admit that my Hokkien (and POJ reading ability) isn't good enough to know what you were saying here. Sorry
! I tried to look up "ciaucuinn" in Douglas/Barclay, but couldn't find it (partly, I wasn't sure of the tones, as the tone marks come out looking slightly strange on my browser). Could you give me an English rendition of the whole sentence? Thanks!In my usage, I say "mua5" standalone, which then sandhis to "mua3/7" when put in front of "ci2", which I pronounce like "seed". So, for me, there is no association with 芝. But that could purely be my own ignorance. Even my non-sandhi tone for "mua5" might be wrong, as I hardly ever use it as a final syllable. Perhaps it's influenced by the totally different morpheme "mua5", which is a kind of cloth worn during mourning, which I do use in final position.Mark Yong wrote:I really should fix my tone numbering! Okay, as far as I can recall in Penang, it is pronounced mùa7（陽去）tsī1 （陰平）. Either there is tone sandhi at work here, or the two morphemes historically do not to 芝蔴, but are just written as such today - this I am not sure. No mua-cu or mua-cə in Penang, either.amhoanna wrote:Mark, U call mochi "moâcí" in M'sia?