Origin of 'lu'
-
pylim
Origin of 'lu'
In standard Hokkien, 'li' is used for you. But in Malaysia 'lu' is used instead. Why is this so?
-
Niuc
Re: Origin of 'lu'
Hi Pylim,
There are a lot of Hokkien dialects. One of the difference among those dialects is the usage of "parallel sounds": 'y' (as 'i' in Pinyin Mandarin 'shi'), 'i' (as 'i' in English "in"), 'u' (as 'u' in English "push").
'y' is used in Cuanciu (Quanzhou), Ankhue (Anxi), Tang-ua* (Tongan)...
'i' is used in E-Mng (Xiamen), part of Taiwan, ...
'u' is used in Ciangciu (Zhangzhou) & surrounding area...
Hence "you" in those dialects are: 'ly', 'li', 'lu' respectively. Same for: 'hy', 'hi', 'hu' (fish); 'ty', 'ti', 'tu' (pig); etc.
In Malaysia, 'lu' is used in Northern part (Penang). Hokkiens in Klang & Melaka use 'ly'.
There are a lot of Hokkien dialects. One of the difference among those dialects is the usage of "parallel sounds": 'y' (as 'i' in Pinyin Mandarin 'shi'), 'i' (as 'i' in English "in"), 'u' (as 'u' in English "push").
'y' is used in Cuanciu (Quanzhou), Ankhue (Anxi), Tang-ua* (Tongan)...
'i' is used in E-Mng (Xiamen), part of Taiwan, ...
'u' is used in Ciangciu (Zhangzhou) & surrounding area...
Hence "you" in those dialects are: 'ly', 'li', 'lu' respectively. Same for: 'hy', 'hi', 'hu' (fish); 'ty', 'ti', 'tu' (pig); etc.
In Malaysia, 'lu' is used in Northern part (Penang). Hokkiens in Klang & Melaka use 'ly'.
-
Kee
Re: Origin of 'lu'
Are you sure cuan ciu use ly but not lu.Have you checked Douglas's book on this?I thought ciang ciu say ly.
-
Niuc
Re: Origin of 'lu'
Hi Kee,
Yes. Both Douglas' Amoy-English Dictionary & Xiamen Fangyan Cidian have notes on these paralel sounds. In Douglas', 'y' is written as 邦 (u with two dots above); in XmFyCd as 扮 (looks almost like two u combined). Both mention that this sound is used in Cuanciu (Quanzhou), paralel to 'i' or 'u' in E-mng (Xiamen) & Ciangciu (Zhangzhou).
Many websites also mention this. I know friends whose ancestry originated in Cuanciu/An-khue/Tang-ua~/Kim-mng area (including myself) using 'ly' instead of 'li' & 'lu'.
[%sig%]
Yes. Both Douglas' Amoy-English Dictionary & Xiamen Fangyan Cidian have notes on these paralel sounds. In Douglas', 'y' is written as 邦 (u with two dots above); in XmFyCd as 扮 (looks almost like two u combined). Both mention that this sound is used in Cuanciu (Quanzhou), paralel to 'i' or 'u' in E-mng (Xiamen) & Ciangciu (Zhangzhou).
Many websites also mention this. I know friends whose ancestry originated in Cuanciu/An-khue/Tang-ua~/Kim-mng area (including myself) using 'ly' instead of 'li' & 'lu'.
[%sig%]
-
kee
Re: Origin of 'lu'
Almost all Hokkien in North malaysia are from Cuan ciu-hei an ,nan an,cing jian,an sie,sing an.I have yet to see a hokkien hui kuan in north malaysia which are from ciang ciu although there is one from Long yen in Penang which is from another sect of hokkien.Have you been to cuan ciu city to confirm this, there cuan ciu used lu.My grandfather use lu and he is from nan an near cuan ciu.
-
Niuc
Re: Origin of 'lu'
Hi Kee,
I have never been to Cuanciu hence I couldn't confirmed this. Yet I believe that those dictionaries, books, & webpages are reliable sources. Sometimes ago I heard a linguistic professor in a Taiwanese TV program mentioning about this characteristic of Cuanciu Hokkien. In Prof. Ngo Siu Le (吳守禮) website http://olddoc.tmu.edu.tw/chiaushin/marker-1.htm it's written as 'ir'.
I also wonder why Cuanciu, Ankhue (Anxi) & Lam-ua* (Nan-an) people in Penang speak that way. But from my limited experience & other resources, people from Cuanciu & nearby area (Lam-ua*, Ankhue, Tang-ua*,...) in Southern Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, Philippines, & Taiwan use 'ly' instead of 'lu', 'mng' instead of 'mui'.
[%sig%]
I have never been to Cuanciu hence I couldn't confirmed this. Yet I believe that those dictionaries, books, & webpages are reliable sources. Sometimes ago I heard a linguistic professor in a Taiwanese TV program mentioning about this characteristic of Cuanciu Hokkien. In Prof. Ngo Siu Le (吳守禮) website http://olddoc.tmu.edu.tw/chiaushin/marker-1.htm it's written as 'ir'.
I also wonder why Cuanciu, Ankhue (Anxi) & Lam-ua* (Nan-an) people in Penang speak that way. But from my limited experience & other resources, people from Cuanciu & nearby area (Lam-ua*, Ankhue, Tang-ua*,...) in Southern Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia, Philippines, & Taiwan use 'ly' instead of 'lu', 'mng' instead of 'mui'.
[%sig%]
-
Kee
Re: Origin of 'lu'
I will visit chuan ciu shortly .The are 9 million chuan ciu hokkien in taiwan but all speak xian man hokkien as I read in newspaper.I am not sure about the other schools of innan hokkien out of these five schools-longyan and datian cities.I have no idea.malaysia have these two hokkien as I read in newspaper.Besides there is another one call bu dian which should be mintong?
-
Niuc
Re: Origin of 'lu'
Hi Kee,
Nice to hear that you're going to visit Cuanciu soon. Bon Voyage. 'Sun Hong'. Please tell us about your experience there afterward.
Yeah, Taiwanese Hokkien is kind of mixture between Cuanciu & Ciangciu, similar to E-mng (Xiamen), using 'li' instead of 'ly' or 'lu', 'mng' instead of 'mui'. Sometimes we still can hear different Taiwanese dialects in TV programs: e.g. 'kue' & 'ke' (to pass -> Mdr: guo4).
I don't know about Leng-na (Longyan) dialect but read once that it share similarity with Ciangciu plus some Hakka influence, if not mistaken...
Photian (Putian) language is called Pu-Xian http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=CPX
[%sig%]
Nice to hear that you're going to visit Cuanciu soon. Bon Voyage. 'Sun Hong'. Please tell us about your experience there afterward.
Yeah, Taiwanese Hokkien is kind of mixture between Cuanciu & Ciangciu, similar to E-mng (Xiamen), using 'li' instead of 'ly' or 'lu', 'mng' instead of 'mui'. Sometimes we still can hear different Taiwanese dialects in TV programs: e.g. 'kue' & 'ke' (to pass -> Mdr: guo4).
I don't know about Leng-na (Longyan) dialect but read once that it share similarity with Ciangciu plus some Hakka influence, if not mistaken...
Photian (Putian) language is called Pu-Xian http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=CPX
[%sig%]
-
kee
Re: Origin of 'lu'
Dear Niuc,
I have a nice trip to hokkien province.I think it is more like lue as I heard it.I heard this when I was a kid from some old man if i am not wrong.It is close to lu but still has a bit of li.I would say it is a kind of combination of li and lu.
I 'm trying to find a chuan chew wife,that is why I went there.
I have a nice trip to hokkien province.I think it is more like lue as I heard it.I heard this when I was a kid from some old man if i am not wrong.It is close to lu but still has a bit of li.I would say it is a kind of combination of li and lu.
I 'm trying to find a chuan chew wife,that is why I went there.
-
Niuc
Re: Origin of 'lu'
Hi Kee,
Nice to hear from you again. It's good that you enjoyed the trip. Wish you a happy hokkien family
Yeah, 'ly' is somehow between 'li' & 'lu'. That's why I prefer to write it as 'ly' because 'y' sounds like 'i' in many languages and its capital letter 'Y' is 'u' in Greek.
[%sig%]
Nice to hear from you again. It's good that you enjoyed the trip. Wish you a happy hokkien family
Yeah, 'ly' is somehow between 'li' & 'lu'. That's why I prefer to write it as 'ly' because 'y' sounds like 'i' in many languages and its capital letter 'Y' is 'u' in Greek.
[%sig%]