Can someone explain how Tang min (literary pronunciation) relates to spoken Hokkien? Is it the "Mandarin" dialect of the time imported into Hokkien, or is it as old as the spoken Hokkien?
Also, when is it used?
andrew
Tang min
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Niuc
Re: Tang min
Hi Andrew,
How do you write ‘Tang min’ in Chinese characters? From what I read, literary pronunciation usually called 讀書音 ‘thak cy im’ or 文言音 ‘bun gian im’.
Colloquial pronunciation (白話音 ‘pe ue im’) should be older than literary pronunciation. Some say that colloquial pronunciation originated from pre-Han & Han dynasty; literary pronunciation from Tang & Song dynasty. Once I read an article that an inscription of Three Kingdom Era (三國 ‘sam kok’) use the character 釣 for 趙. In Mandarin they sound differently i.e. ‘diao4’ and ‘zhao4’. In Hokkien they sound similarly i.e. ‘tiou3’ and ‘tiou7’. The pronunciation of Han court language should be more similar to Hokkien’s colloquial pronunciation than to literary pronunciation. Literary pronunciation shares many similarities with Cantonese pronunciation. Tang/Song poems rhyme better in literary pronunciation and Cantonese than in Mandarin.
However, the usage of colloquial and literary pronunciation is not clearly separated in Hokkien. They are used together in daily conversation, inseparable, though colloquial is more often heard. Awarely or unawarely, we usually use some literary pronunciation even in informal daily chit chat. Proper name usually use literary pronunciation; common noun, colloquial. Colloquial and literary pronunciations are also used to differentiate meanings or usage of a character.
E.g. 生 (sheng1 in Mandarin): ‘si*’ -> to give birth to, to grow; ‘chi*’ -> raw; ‘sing’ -> life, living.
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How do you write ‘Tang min’ in Chinese characters? From what I read, literary pronunciation usually called 讀書音 ‘thak cy im’ or 文言音 ‘bun gian im’.
Colloquial pronunciation (白話音 ‘pe ue im’) should be older than literary pronunciation. Some say that colloquial pronunciation originated from pre-Han & Han dynasty; literary pronunciation from Tang & Song dynasty. Once I read an article that an inscription of Three Kingdom Era (三國 ‘sam kok’) use the character 釣 for 趙. In Mandarin they sound differently i.e. ‘diao4’ and ‘zhao4’. In Hokkien they sound similarly i.e. ‘tiou3’ and ‘tiou7’. The pronunciation of Han court language should be more similar to Hokkien’s colloquial pronunciation than to literary pronunciation. Literary pronunciation shares many similarities with Cantonese pronunciation. Tang/Song poems rhyme better in literary pronunciation and Cantonese than in Mandarin.
However, the usage of colloquial and literary pronunciation is not clearly separated in Hokkien. They are used together in daily conversation, inseparable, though colloquial is more often heard. Awarely or unawarely, we usually use some literary pronunciation even in informal daily chit chat. Proper name usually use literary pronunciation; common noun, colloquial. Colloquial and literary pronunciations are also used to differentiate meanings or usage of a character.
E.g. 生 (sheng1 in Mandarin): ‘si*’ -> to give birth to, to grow; ‘chi*’ -> raw; ‘sing’ -> life, living.
[%sig%]
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hong
Re: Tang min
Dear Niuc,
I disagree about Tang and song poem sound better in cantonese because you havan't tried it in xi an mandarin (putonghua at that time)or Mr.Li Bai own shan tong/xi mandarin.Song=hei nan and hangzhou 2 capitol.
We know that putonghua in early ming is still wu language before they moved to Beijing.
I disagree about Tang and song poem sound better in cantonese because you havan't tried it in xi an mandarin (putonghua at that time)or Mr.Li Bai own shan tong/xi mandarin.Song=hei nan and hangzhou 2 capitol.
We know that putonghua in early ming is still wu language before they moved to Beijing.
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hong
Re: Tang min
I am not saying that current putonghua are the same with beijinghua.Only in last century that china have produced a special kind of language with heibei province sound and vocabulary from northen provinces but not from beijing only.A lot of people don't know this fact.This is why we have some books for beijing language learning and some for putonghua.In ancient china that are no putonghua but everyone must try to learn xian in tang and han period.Wu in southern song and early ming.We have a story from a famous chinese writer asking the waitress why she speakes xian hua but not putonghua ,she says xian is the putonghua 1400 years ago.It is correct for her to use xian hua as a common language.
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Niuc
Re: Tang min
Dear Hong,
Is the Xi-An Mandarin you mentioned as putonghua at that time still preserved as it was during Tang/Song era? Could you please give more info?
From my limited info [Please correct me if I am wrong.], today Xi-An dialect belongs to Northern Chinese (Mandarin) group. And modern Northern Chinese has lost features of Tang/Song Chinese i.e. 8 tones become 4 tones [neutral tone not counted], retains only '-n'/'-ng' consonant endings [i.e. lost 'm, p, t, k']. The Xi-An [Chang-An] language of Tang/Song should be more similar to modern Cantonese & Southern Chinese languages than to modern Xi-An language.
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Is the Xi-An Mandarin you mentioned as putonghua at that time still preserved as it was during Tang/Song era? Could you please give more info?
From my limited info [Please correct me if I am wrong.], today Xi-An dialect belongs to Northern Chinese (Mandarin) group. And modern Northern Chinese has lost features of Tang/Song Chinese i.e. 8 tones become 4 tones [neutral tone not counted], retains only '-n'/'-ng' consonant endings [i.e. lost 'm, p, t, k']. The Xi-An [Chang-An] language of Tang/Song should be more similar to modern Cantonese & Southern Chinese languages than to modern Xi-An language.
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Hong
Re: Tang min
The losing of tones in northern chinese happen gradually not suddenly during Libai period.Who can exactly gives the date for northern languages losing ru sound.I think the cantonese only sounded well using their own vocabulary but not from other languages in china.In 8 th AD they have already developed very much.Someone in malaysia said a theory like you in newspaper but another prof protested it with some proofs.
According to that author modern xian sounded very much the same in tones like tang but not hang,certainly not the vocabulary in many ways.People interviewing will have trouble because he uses too many ancient xian word.
I don't think chinese northern languages shouldn be in the same family because sounds and vocabulary vary very much.I have a friend in China's University are having hard times to understand profs who speak many northern languages but not standard putonghua currently set by a committe in beijing.Some simply walk in with even Wu language.How the hell he is going to learn!This is unexpected at all!
According to that author modern xian sounded very much the same in tones like tang but not hang,certainly not the vocabulary in many ways.People interviewing will have trouble because he uses too many ancient xian word.
I don't think chinese northern languages shouldn be in the same family because sounds and vocabulary vary very much.I have a friend in China's University are having hard times to understand profs who speak many northern languages but not standard putonghua currently set by a committe in beijing.Some simply walk in with even Wu language.How the hell he is going to learn!This is unexpected at all!
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Niuc
Re: Tang min
Hong
Thanks for the info. It's really interesting. If modern Xi-an sounds very much in tones like it was during Tang era, it should have around 8 tones right? If possible, could you give more info, the article perhaps?
According to http://www.glossika.com/en/dict/tones/g ... htm#sxxian or http://www.glossika.com/en/dict/tones/guanhua.htm modern Xi-an only has 4 tones. Linguistically it's Northern Chinese Mandarin http://www.glossika.com/en/dict/dialectm.htm .
In Li Bai's poem 黃鶴樓送孟浩然之廣陵, the rhymes are 樓, 州, 盡, 流. They are 'lou2', 'zhou1', 'jin4', 'liu2' in Mandarin. In Cantonese they are 'lau', 'cau', 'can', 'lau' [told by a friend, my Cantonese isn't good]. It means it rhymes better in Cantonese than in Mandarin. Its rhymes in literary Hokkien: 'lo5', 'ciu1', 'cin7', 'liu5', seems not as good as in Cantonese but the key rhymes i.e. the second & forth are still better than Mandarin. How about in Xi-an language?
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Thanks for the info. It's really interesting. If modern Xi-an sounds very much in tones like it was during Tang era, it should have around 8 tones right? If possible, could you give more info, the article perhaps?
According to http://www.glossika.com/en/dict/tones/g ... htm#sxxian or http://www.glossika.com/en/dict/tones/guanhua.htm modern Xi-an only has 4 tones. Linguistically it's Northern Chinese Mandarin http://www.glossika.com/en/dict/dialectm.htm .
In Li Bai's poem 黃鶴樓送孟浩然之廣陵, the rhymes are 樓, 州, 盡, 流. They are 'lou2', 'zhou1', 'jin4', 'liu2' in Mandarin. In Cantonese they are 'lau', 'cau', 'can', 'lau' [told by a friend, my Cantonese isn't good]. It means it rhymes better in Cantonese than in Mandarin. Its rhymes in literary Hokkien: 'lo5', 'ciu1', 'cin7', 'liu5', seems not as good as in Cantonese but the key rhymes i.e. the second & forth are still better than Mandarin. How about in Xi-an language?
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Hong
Re: Tang min
Dear Niuc,
This is a wrong question for me because I don't even have money to buy that 5 volumes of hanyu fangyan dacidian and separate xian cidian.Or any book about poem.Think about this,are we saying that libai chanted the poem but find it unsmooth in his own shandong or xian language but still didn't rewrite again.It means he is a poor guy.A radio DJ in Malaysia said this is crazy after he as a cantonese tried in cantonese and mandarin.One cannot say which one in better.May I ask why no poet came from south china in Tang period.However I think some poem are chanted in wu language during southern song.
This is a wrong question for me because I don't even have money to buy that 5 volumes of hanyu fangyan dacidian and separate xian cidian.Or any book about poem.Think about this,are we saying that libai chanted the poem but find it unsmooth in his own shandong or xian language but still didn't rewrite again.It means he is a poor guy.A radio DJ in Malaysia said this is crazy after he as a cantonese tried in cantonese and mandarin.One cannot say which one in better.May I ask why no poet came from south china in Tang period.However I think some poem are chanted in wu language during southern song.
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Niuc
Re: Tang min
Dear Hong,
I thought you knew modern Xi-an language hence the question
What I meant was: Li Bai wrote the poem that ryhmed perfectly in his language i.e. the language of Tang. Many features of this language are preserved in modern Cantonese but lost in modern Xi-an and modern Mandarin. The language used in Xi-an during Tang dynasty is different from modern Xi-an language -> this is the key point.
Why were there less or no poets from Southern China in Tang era? More likely because it was during Tang era when Chinese people started mass migration to Southern China. It's why Southern Chinese, especially in Fujian & Guangdong, usually call themselves "Tang people"/"Tng5 lang5"/"Tang2 ren2". There were quite a number of poet from Southern China in Song era.
Why Tang poems rhyme better in Cantonese (and Southern Chinese languages) than Mandarin (and Northern Chinese languages)? More likely because Southern Chinese are linguistically more conservative, preserve many Old & Middle Chinese features. Northern Chinese underwent bigger changes because of Mongol & Manchu invansions.
http://starling.rinet.ru has a great linguistic database. From the site, the pronunciation for those four words [樓, 州, 盡, 流] in:
* modern Cantonese: lau12, c^au11, c^o"_n32, lau12
* modern Mandarin: lou12, c.ou11, c/in3, liou12
* modern Xi-an: lou12, c.ou11, c/ie~3, liou12
Please notice that Xi-an & Mandarin are alike except for the third word. It means the poem rhymes better in Cantonese than in modern Xi-an.
Interestingly, Hokkien pronunciation for those 4 words are comparably similar to Old Chinese, particularly the ending vowels & rhymes.
* Old Chinese: ro:, tu, z|in?, ru
* Hokkien/Xiamen: lo|12, ciu11, cin32, liu12
References:
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/respon ... oot=config
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/respon ... oot=config
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/respon ... oot=config
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/respon ... oot=config
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/respon ... oot=config
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/respon ... oot=config
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/respon ... oot=config
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/respon ... oot=config
[%sig%]
I thought you knew modern Xi-an language hence the question
What I meant was: Li Bai wrote the poem that ryhmed perfectly in his language i.e. the language of Tang. Many features of this language are preserved in modern Cantonese but lost in modern Xi-an and modern Mandarin. The language used in Xi-an during Tang dynasty is different from modern Xi-an language -> this is the key point.
Why were there less or no poets from Southern China in Tang era? More likely because it was during Tang era when Chinese people started mass migration to Southern China. It's why Southern Chinese, especially in Fujian & Guangdong, usually call themselves "Tang people"/"Tng5 lang5"/"Tang2 ren2". There were quite a number of poet from Southern China in Song era.
Why Tang poems rhyme better in Cantonese (and Southern Chinese languages) than Mandarin (and Northern Chinese languages)? More likely because Southern Chinese are linguistically more conservative, preserve many Old & Middle Chinese features. Northern Chinese underwent bigger changes because of Mongol & Manchu invansions.
http://starling.rinet.ru has a great linguistic database. From the site, the pronunciation for those four words [樓, 州, 盡, 流] in:
* modern Cantonese: lau12, c^au11, c^o"_n32, lau12
* modern Mandarin: lou12, c.ou11, c/in3, liou12
* modern Xi-an: lou12, c.ou11, c/ie~3, liou12
Please notice that Xi-an & Mandarin are alike except for the third word. It means the poem rhymes better in Cantonese than in modern Xi-an.
Interestingly, Hokkien pronunciation for those 4 words are comparably similar to Old Chinese, particularly the ending vowels & rhymes.
* Old Chinese: ro:, tu, z|in?, ru
* Hokkien/Xiamen: lo|12, ciu11, cin32, liu12
References:
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/respon ... oot=config
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/respon ... oot=config
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/respon ... oot=config
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/respon ... oot=config
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/respon ... oot=config
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/respon ... oot=config
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/respon ... oot=config
http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/respon ... oot=config
[%sig%]
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hong
Re: Tang min
Dear Niu,
Note that earlier I did use the word gradually for northern language to lose some sounds.It didn't happen during LiBai period . For common ear it will be just the same.I think we have experts that can recite the mandarin languages into original form during LIbai period.
Note that earlier I did use the word gradually for northern language to lose some sounds.It didn't happen during LiBai period . For common ear it will be just the same.I think we have experts that can recite the mandarin languages into original form during LIbai period.