Tang min

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
hong

Re: Tang min

Post by hong »

Niuc,
In this article it is mentioned that mandarin is not too bad in reciting poem
www.bongpo.com.tw/tgb_article04.htm
Leny

Hokkien

Post by Leny »

Can some one give me the hokkien site for me?
Niuc

Re: Tang min

Post by Niuc »

Hong,

Thanks for the link to the article. Btw, I didn't mention that Mandarin was too bad in reciting poem. My point is that Mandarin is not as good as Southern Chinese languages in reciting Tang/Song poems. The article is very interesting, yet also contains political propaganda. The article also mentiones that Mandarin is the modern Manchurian Chinese and not suitable for reciting 'ancient' poems.

[%sig%]
hong

Re: Tang min

Post by hong »

I think this is the only article i read that hokkien is a baiyue language but not han.I think in china only those tibetan,and other minority languages that must be spelt out like eng are not han language.
Casey

Re: Tang min

Post by Casey »

I just wish to caution those who read articles from Taiwan websites such as "www.bongpo.com.tw/tgb_article04.htm", that great care should be exercised so as not to fall into the trap of those who avocate independant Taiwan and who try their best to twist and turn fabricated fictions into so-called 'facts' in order to achieve their ulterior purpose of differentiating Taiwanese from Chinese. It is very clear who are the real natives of Taiwan.
Let us keep this forum politically clean.
Hong, certainly no offence to you.
Guest

Post by Guest »

Niuc,

> Colloquial pronunciation (白話音 ‘pe ue im’) should be older than literary pronunciation (文言音 ‘bun gian im’).
> Some say that colloquial pronunciation originated from pre-Han & Han dynasty;
> literary pronunciation from Tang & Song dynasty.
> Once I read an article that an inscription of Three Kingdom Era (三國 ‘sam kok’) use the character 釣 for 趙.
In Mandarin they sound differently i.e. ‘diao4’ and ‘zhao4’.
In Hokkien they sound similarly i.e. ‘tiou3’ and ‘tiou7’.
> The pronunciation of Han court language should be more similar to Hokkien’s colloquial pronunciation than to literary pronunciation.


You are right, the colloquial reading (白讀音 ‘peh-thak-im’) was older than the literary reading (文讀音 ‘bun-thak-im’).
The colloquial reading originated from pre-Chiu or Chiu Dynasty.
The literary reading also originated from pre-Chiu or Chiu Dynasty.

Some years ago, I read a report in the magazine that said the archaeologists whom find some bamboo-book (inscription) from an ancient tomb of "Chhou Kingdom" (楚國 ‘Chhou-kok’) the Warring States Era (戰國 ‘chian-kok’), that used the character 釣 for 趙.

Those experts of Mandarin speakers could not know the meaning of this character 釣 in Mandarin language, then they checked the book of Hokkian syllabary, and later they known this sound of 釣 in Hokkian language that could be pronounced in ‘tiou3’ as similar as the sound of 趙 (tiou7).
In Mandarin they sound differently i.e. ‘diao4’ (釣) and ‘zhao4’ (趙).
In Hokkien they sound similarly i.e. ‘tiou3’ (釣) and ‘tiou7’ (趙).

The "Tiou Kingdom" (趙國 tiou-kok) was a Strong Power in nothern China, and the "Chhou Kingdom" was in southern China. The Warring States Era was from 475 b.c. - 221 b.c., but the Three Kingdoms was from 220 a.d. - 280 a.d. The era of Three Kingdoms only consisted with "魏 ui ", "吳 ngou" and "蜀漢 sok-han", only these three states, without the "Chhou Kingdom" and "Tiou Kingdom", and in the Warring States Era there had seven large kingdoms or Seven Strong Powers including the "Tiou Kingdom" and "Chhou Kingdom".

The pronunciation of Han court language should be more similar to Hokkien’s colloquial pronunciation than to literary pronunciation.
I guess that because the Emperor "Lau Pang" (劉邦) and his high rank officers come from a place of the "Chhou Kingdom" (楚國 ‘Chhou-kok’), and the "Hang U" (項羽) , the leader of a next Big Power and his army also come from a next place of the "Chhou Kingdom". In their motherland the people were speaking a language of Siong Nation, these two places were belong to Siong Nation in the era of "Spring and Autumn Period". This language situation was similar to the Middle Era of Britainia, the Norman Conquerors and their nobles, officers were speaking the Frence and the Britain people were saying their native English.

The Hokkian speaking people especially the Chiang-chiu, Choan-chiu and Lam-tai (a district of Hok-chiu City) come from those places. Therefore, the pronunciation of Han court language should be more similar to Hokkien’s colloquial reading. Those ancient people lived in the capital of Se-an (Xi-an), I guess that they said their own native Se-an languages, and the Emperors' Court, nobles and some officers were speaking a language of Siong Nation that were very similar to modern Hokkian language.

SL
niuc
Posts: 734
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 3:23 pm
Location: Singapore

Post by niuc »

SL, thanks for the info :D
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