Penang Hokkien lessons
Re: Penang Hokkien lessons
Adding IPA was a good choice.
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AndrewAndrew
- Posts: 174
- Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:26 am
Re: Penang Hokkien lessons
Yes, definitely support the addition of IPA.
Re: Penang Hokkien lessons
Okay, time for a return to this thread.
The spellings in the Penang Hokkien lessons have not improved with age. Now they are such a mess with exceptions everywhere, and it gets worse by the week By the time you have learnt all of the pointless exceptions to rules which are barely stuck to to start with, you could have learnt POJ and Tailo adapted for Penang Hokkien twenty times over, would be able to pronounce a word as soon as look at it, and would be able to take advantage of all the other great Hokkien resources out there, as well as input methods, the de Gijzel dictionary, and many other resources for Taiwanese and Amoy, which although different, are still useful at least 70% of the time for anyone learning any kind of Hokkien.
The vocabulary presented in the dictionary is useful however, and there is nowhere else in the world at present where the tones on the Malay words are laid out. Even with all the vocabulary, I do wonder whether it isn't more a constructed rather than a preserved Hokkien, since I doubt that people who have such a wide native vocabulary as presented in the dictionary have such highly creolised or 紅毛屎 grammar patterns as are given in the example sentences.
My advice to a prospective learner of Penang Hokkien is to use the dictionary with caution. Ignore the spellings in the dictionary altogether, copy the words you want, and delete the spelling, save only the IPA and the tone, and compile your own dictionary with them. If you look them up by POJ (assuming the IPA is correct to start with) then you can access the Chinese character as well.
The spellings in the Penang Hokkien lessons have not improved with age. Now they are such a mess with exceptions everywhere, and it gets worse by the week By the time you have learnt all of the pointless exceptions to rules which are barely stuck to to start with, you could have learnt POJ and Tailo adapted for Penang Hokkien twenty times over, would be able to pronounce a word as soon as look at it, and would be able to take advantage of all the other great Hokkien resources out there, as well as input methods, the de Gijzel dictionary, and many other resources for Taiwanese and Amoy, which although different, are still useful at least 70% of the time for anyone learning any kind of Hokkien.
The vocabulary presented in the dictionary is useful however, and there is nowhere else in the world at present where the tones on the Malay words are laid out. Even with all the vocabulary, I do wonder whether it isn't more a constructed rather than a preserved Hokkien, since I doubt that people who have such a wide native vocabulary as presented in the dictionary have such highly creolised or 紅毛屎 grammar patterns as are given in the example sentences.
My advice to a prospective learner of Penang Hokkien is to use the dictionary with caution. Ignore the spellings in the dictionary altogether, copy the words you want, and delete the spelling, save only the IPA and the tone, and compile your own dictionary with them. If you look them up by POJ (assuming the IPA is correct to start with) then you can access the Chinese character as well.
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AndrewAndrew
- Posts: 174
- Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:26 am
Re: Penang Hokkien lessons
Well, no point complaining. You'll just have to publish your dictionary!
The number of entries is quite impressive. The most common errors in the IPA seem to be [-k] in places that should be [-?], e.g. lots of [-ok] endings which are impossible in Hokkien.
The number of entries is quite impressive. The most common errors in the IPA seem to be [-k] in places that should be [-?], e.g. lots of [-ok] endings which are impossible in Hokkien.
Re: Penang Hokkien lessons
Beautiful, súi, đẹp.My advice to a prospective learner of Penang Hokkien is to use the dictionary with caution. Ignore the spellings in the dictionary altogether, copy the words you want, and delete the spelling, save only the IPA and the tone, and compile your own dictionary with them. If you look them up by POJ (assuming the IPA is correct to start with) then you can access the Chinese character as well.
Re: Penang Hokkien lessons
Hi everyone,
I'm chinese indonesian. I would like to learn hokkien. In indonesia, the most used hokkien dialect is medan or sumatran hokkien that I believe is closesly near to penang hokkien which is based on zhangzhou dialect if I'm not wrong.
I found the penang hokkien tutorial in penang-traveltips website is very useful for beginner like me. I like how in the dictionary, the tone number is already written in sandhied form, where in other hokkien dictionary, I have to know the sandhi formula if I want to pronounce it correctly.
I also like the simplified intonation system. However I'm still a little confused of how to pronounce the intonation correctly.
For example, the 4th tone in TJ system (hokkien tone-2): bá. Does it really mean I have to pronounce it from low to high? I feel it's more like falling down tone like 4th mandarin tone.
In summary, my perception of the TJ's four tonal system is like this:
1. ba = High flat: sounds like mandarin tone-1 but more higher note
2. bâ = Rising: sounds like mandarin tone-3
3. It's divided into two:
a. Low falling down: bà = this is kinda hard, sometimes I pronounce it wrong. I imagined the tone is
flowing downward curvely from mid to low. If I could draw, it's like this:
b. Mid Flat: bā = it should be like tone-1 but in lower note.
To simplify, I just go with 3.a. all way around for 3rd tone.
4. bá = High short falling: despite the diacritic mark is going up, it sounds almost like mandarin tone-4 (falling down) but it seems started from higher note and curvely, I imagined it like this:
Any comment for my understanding?
Also, it seems the penang hokkien has limited hokkien vocabulary. That's why there are many loanwords from english or malay language. If I want to borrow hokkien words from other hokkien dialects, which is better to borrow from? Amoy, taiwanese, zhangzhou? I believe zhangzhou is more suitable, but it seems very hard to find the dictionary.
I'm chinese indonesian. I would like to learn hokkien. In indonesia, the most used hokkien dialect is medan or sumatran hokkien that I believe is closesly near to penang hokkien which is based on zhangzhou dialect if I'm not wrong.
I found the penang hokkien tutorial in penang-traveltips website is very useful for beginner like me. I like how in the dictionary, the tone number is already written in sandhied form, where in other hokkien dictionary, I have to know the sandhi formula if I want to pronounce it correctly.
I also like the simplified intonation system. However I'm still a little confused of how to pronounce the intonation correctly.
For example, the 4th tone in TJ system (hokkien tone-2): bá. Does it really mean I have to pronounce it from low to high? I feel it's more like falling down tone like 4th mandarin tone.
In summary, my perception of the TJ's four tonal system is like this:
1. ba = High flat: sounds like mandarin tone-1 but more higher note
2. bâ = Rising: sounds like mandarin tone-3
3. It's divided into two:
a. Low falling down: bà = this is kinda hard, sometimes I pronounce it wrong. I imagined the tone is
flowing downward curvely from mid to low. If I could draw, it's like this:
b. Mid Flat: bā = it should be like tone-1 but in lower note.
To simplify, I just go with 3.a. all way around for 3rd tone.
4. bá = High short falling: despite the diacritic mark is going up, it sounds almost like mandarin tone-4 (falling down) but it seems started from higher note and curvely, I imagined it like this:
Any comment for my understanding?
Also, it seems the penang hokkien has limited hokkien vocabulary. That's why there are many loanwords from english or malay language. If I want to borrow hokkien words from other hokkien dialects, which is better to borrow from? Amoy, taiwanese, zhangzhou? I believe zhangzhou is more suitable, but it seems very hard to find the dictionary.
Re: Penang Hokkien lessons
A lot of reading material has been added to the site recently, and I feel it is time to warn prospective learners that it is not the amazing treasure trove of teaching materials it purports to be. Unfortunately it appears that the more reading material and sample sentence added to this site, the less reliable it becomes as a resource for learning Hokkien as it is actually spoken by the most knowledgable and fluent native speakers.
The author seems to have severe problems with basic Hokkien grammar and sentence structure, and writes many sentences as if they are translated directly word-for-word from English.
Examples:
mien1 tiok3 tan4 a1nae1 ku4 liau4 = "Don't have to wait"
As far as I am aware, the "tiok3" is not used by native speakers, and this is merely an imitation of English usage. Mien alon is suffient for "don't have to"
Ha1mik1 si3 sam3pah4-eh3 kong1ko3? "what are rubbish advertisements"
Here the "Ha-mik" is put at the head of the sentence, again, an imitation of English usage where question words are always put first, and although i have occasionally heard it from people with very broken Hokkien, I would recommend inverting the word order, and perhaps adding "lai" after "ha-mik" - not 100% sure on that one though.
Ti1 Cun3thau2, lu4 e33 ceh3 bas1 khee3 ka1liau4-eh3 sor1cai3 ti1 Penang. "From the Jetty you can take the bus to all places in Panang"
"ka1liau4-eh3 sor1cai3 ti1 Penang" Is again, almost pure English, it just sounds wrong.
Penang e toloh-ui pun e khi might be better… sounds better to me, but maybe I am wrong.
Another one says:
"Yong3 Tau3 Foo3 si3 cit3-hang3 eh3 Khek1 Lang2-eh3 ciak1"
Two measure words in a row - "cit3-hang3 eh3" - not grammatically possible, if the second ê is supposed to be a connector from
A native speaker will say "Yong3 Tau3 Foo3 si3 Khek1 Lang2 ciak1" the extra cit hang sounds like forcing a translation of the indefinite article "a" into Hokkien.
Every reading lesson has syntactical errors and unnatural constructions that are seldom, if ever found in the speech of native speakers,
If you are wanting to learn Hokkien they way native speakers speak it, then you should steer well clear of the reading lessons. Use the dictionary by all means, but with caution. You will need to cross check the meanings with a native speaker, because some of these are incorrect as well. The IPA is also a mess now, and the author doesn't seem to know the difference between a nasalised vowel tilde ~ and the velar nasal ŋ.
I wonder what native speakers think of the above examples. Am I wrong or do they sound warped? Since the site advertises itself as "perhaps the most serous effort yet to preserve Penang Hokkien", I would like to know if we can accuse it of false advertising or not. It is one of the first links you get when googling Penang Hokkien - is it something that should be warned about? I would love to know people's opinions.
The author seems to have severe problems with basic Hokkien grammar and sentence structure, and writes many sentences as if they are translated directly word-for-word from English.
Examples:
mien1 tiok3 tan4 a1nae1 ku4 liau4 = "Don't have to wait"
As far as I am aware, the "tiok3" is not used by native speakers, and this is merely an imitation of English usage. Mien alon is suffient for "don't have to"
Ha1mik1 si3 sam3pah4-eh3 kong1ko3? "what are rubbish advertisements"
Here the "Ha-mik" is put at the head of the sentence, again, an imitation of English usage where question words are always put first, and although i have occasionally heard it from people with very broken Hokkien, I would recommend inverting the word order, and perhaps adding "lai" after "ha-mik" - not 100% sure on that one though.
Ti1 Cun3thau2, lu4 e33 ceh3 bas1 khee3 ka1liau4-eh3 sor1cai3 ti1 Penang. "From the Jetty you can take the bus to all places in Panang"
"ka1liau4-eh3 sor1cai3 ti1 Penang" Is again, almost pure English, it just sounds wrong.
Penang e toloh-ui pun e khi might be better… sounds better to me, but maybe I am wrong.
Another one says:
"Yong3 Tau3 Foo3 si3 cit3-hang3 eh3 Khek1 Lang2-eh3 ciak1"
Two measure words in a row - "cit3-hang3 eh3" - not grammatically possible, if the second ê is supposed to be a connector from
A native speaker will say "Yong3 Tau3 Foo3 si3 Khek1 Lang2 ciak1" the extra cit hang sounds like forcing a translation of the indefinite article "a" into Hokkien.
Every reading lesson has syntactical errors and unnatural constructions that are seldom, if ever found in the speech of native speakers,
If you are wanting to learn Hokkien they way native speakers speak it, then you should steer well clear of the reading lessons. Use the dictionary by all means, but with caution. You will need to cross check the meanings with a native speaker, because some of these are incorrect as well. The IPA is also a mess now, and the author doesn't seem to know the difference between a nasalised vowel tilde ~ and the velar nasal ŋ.
I wonder what native speakers think of the above examples. Am I wrong or do they sound warped? Since the site advertises itself as "perhaps the most serous effort yet to preserve Penang Hokkien", I would like to know if we can accuse it of false advertising or not. It is one of the first links you get when googling Penang Hokkien - is it something that should be warned about? I would love to know people's opinions.
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AndrewAndrew
- Posts: 174
- Joined: Mon Aug 09, 2010 10:26 am
Re: Penang Hokkien lessons
I was going to say I thought they sounded like an English-speaker having trouble forming complex Hokkien sentences, and maybe question whether it was not part of the continuum of a creolised/patois language, and whether those of us who knew Mandarin might be stricter on the grammar (e.g. 我去先 is perfectly acceptable Hokkien, but Mandarin-speakers would disapprove) but then I came across this:
Ki3si2 ie1 lai2?
When did he come?
which is so wrong that I don't think even an English-educated Hokkien speaker could ever say it. I can just about accept beginning a sentence with ha-mih, perhaps as part of a question ending in ni? which the speaker then answers, but this just takes the cake.
Systematic mistakes I noticed in the example sentences was:
- location phrases at the end of sentences: te3-it1 tng2 eh3 kio2 ti1 Tang3lam3 A3
- overuse of ê: Pi3nang3 Su3-eh3 sai1-eh3 peng2
Apart from that, direct translations from English, which you've already noted:
Pu3lor2 tok3 si3 Hok1kien1 mia2 hor3 Balik Pulau.
Pu3lo2 is the Hokkien name for Balik Pulau
A3si3 lu4 kau3 poe3ki3tniau2, lu4 e33 ceh3 bas1 kau3 ka1 cun3thau2.
If you arrive at the airport, you can take the bus to the jetty.
Another thing that's symptomatic about the second sentence is the constant placing of 若是 in front of the subject, mirroring English, whereas a native would more commonly place the subject first.
Ki3si2 ie1 lai2?
When did he come?
which is so wrong that I don't think even an English-educated Hokkien speaker could ever say it. I can just about accept beginning a sentence with ha-mih, perhaps as part of a question ending in ni? which the speaker then answers, but this just takes the cake.
Systematic mistakes I noticed in the example sentences was:
- location phrases at the end of sentences: te3-it1 tng2 eh3 kio2 ti1 Tang3lam3 A3
- overuse of ê: Pi3nang3 Su3-eh3 sai1-eh3 peng2
Apart from that, direct translations from English, which you've already noted:
Pu3lor2 tok3 si3 Hok1kien1 mia2 hor3 Balik Pulau.
Pu3lo2 is the Hokkien name for Balik Pulau
A3si3 lu4 kau3 poe3ki3tniau2, lu4 e33 ceh3 bas1 kau3 ka1 cun3thau2.
If you arrive at the airport, you can take the bus to the jetty.
Another thing that's symptomatic about the second sentence is the constant placing of 若是 in front of the subject, mirroring English, whereas a native would more commonly place the subject first.
Re: Penang Hokkien lessons
Tamoe,
Hoan-gêng, hoan-gêng.
Lú sī Ìnnîⁿ tólo̍h ê lâng?
Medan Hokkien and Penang Hokkien are very close indeed. U may want to look into Riau Hokkien.
Incidentally I find that Penang Hokkien is pretty good at inventing new words using old Hokkien words. "Souping up (vehicles)" is called "cng (chia)". In TW folks would say "káicong chia", seems soulless by comparison.
Hoan-gêng, hoan-gêng.
Lú sī Ìnnîⁿ tólo̍h ê lâng?
Medan Hokkien and Penang Hokkien are very close indeed. U may want to look into Riau Hokkien.
Where to borrow from -- why not Bagansiapiapi? Their Hokkien vocabulary is real complete. U will have to convert some words to a Ciangciu pronunciation, though.Also, it seems the penang hokkien has limited hokkien vocabulary. That's why there are many loanwords from english or malay language. If I want to borrow hokkien words from other hokkien dialects, which is better to borrow from? Amoy, taiwanese, zhangzhou? I believe zhangzhou is more suitable, but it seems very hard to find the dictionary.
Incidentally I find that Penang Hokkien is pretty good at inventing new words using old Hokkien words. "Souping up (vehicles)" is called "cng (chia)". In TW folks would say "káicong chia", seems soulless by comparison.
Re: Penang Hokkien lessons
wa si pa sia lang (sorry if I don't use POJ, haven't fully learned it yet)amhoanna wrote:Tamoe,
Hoan-gêng, hoan-gêng.
Lú sī Ìnnîⁿ tólo̍h ê lâng?
Medan Hokkien and Penang Hokkien are very close indeed. U may want to look into Riau Hokkien.
Where to borrow from -- why not Bagansiapiapi? Their Hokkien vocabulary is real complete. U will have to convert some words to a Ciangciu pronunciation, though.Also, it seems the penang hokkien has limited hokkien vocabulary. That's why there are many loanwords from english or malay language. If I want to borrow hokkien words from other hokkien dialects, which is better to borrow from? Amoy, taiwanese, zhangzhou? I believe zhangzhou is more suitable, but it seems very hard to find the dictionary.
Incidentally I find that Penang Hokkien is pretty good at inventing new words using old Hokkien words. "Souping up (vehicles)" is called "cng (chia)". In TW folks would say "káicong chia", seems soulless by comparison.
Yes, I know that bagansiapiapi hokkien is very similar to taiwanese. Yeah, I think we can borrow from taiwanese or amoy (xiamen) hokkien, although most of their vocabulary sounds a bit foreign to penang/medan hokkien.