Sim: I agree with what you write.
ay.
Question
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Sim
Re: Question
Hi there Chuah,
I'm familiar with "long1 cong2" and "ka1 liau2", both meaning "all", but I only use the latter.
I may be totally wrong here (happens often enough!), but I've always assumed that "ka liau" is a corruption of "kau liau" from "kau7" = "arrive, get to" and "liau2" = "finish". When something "gets to the finish", it means "all". E.g. "i-lang ka liau be sai khi" = "they, to the finish, are not allowed to go" = "they, all, are not allowed to go".
Just another one of my wild guesses. More knowledgable people, please correct me.
Sim.
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I'm familiar with "long1 cong2" and "ka1 liau2", both meaning "all", but I only use the latter.
I may be totally wrong here (happens often enough!), but I've always assumed that "ka liau" is a corruption of "kau liau" from "kau7" = "arrive, get to" and "liau2" = "finish". When something "gets to the finish", it means "all". E.g. "i-lang ka liau be sai khi" = "they, to the finish, are not allowed to go" = "they, all, are not allowed to go".
Just another one of my wild guesses. More knowledgable people, please correct me.
Sim.
[%sig%]
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Niuc
Re: Question
Correction for my previous posting:
the nick name of middle finger should be 'tiong1 i5 a0' 中姨仔 [also read as 'tiong1 i0 a0' which sounds like 'tiong1 i3 a3'].
Chuah, 'khan seng'/'khan1 sing5' 牽成 means "to help, to mentor". 'ka3 liau2' is 到了.
Sim, you are right that 'ka3 liau2' is 'kau3 liau2' 到了. 'ka3 liau2' is not a corrupted form as both are valid and slightly differ in sense. e.g. 'cia8 kau3 liau2' tends to mean "finish the eating"; 'cia8 ka3 liau2' tends to mean "finish all the food, leave none to others". The paralel of 'ka' and 'kau' as the readings of one character (hanji) is also for the word "to teach" 教.
'long2 cong2' 攏總 is used in different manner; it's not placed at the end as 'ka3 liau2' is. And I think that 'long2 cong2 e5 lang5' (all people) is never said as 'ka3 liau2 e5 lang5'. Or do you say it that way?
'phai2 khua*3' 壞看 is the most common word for ugly in ours also. We almost never use 'khiap4 si3'. 'hiong1' is for extremely ugly. Interestingly, 'phai2' 壞 is not nasal for us as it is in other Hokkien dialects. 'phi' 鼻 (nose) is also not nasal in ours.
Sim, your "ta3 ta3 pai4" is 'tak8 tak8 pai2' 逐逐 in ours. 'tak8' means every, as in 'tak8 e5 lang5' 逐的人 everybody/everyone.
"han2 han2" is 'han2 e0' 罕的 in ours.
From what I notice, 'tiam7 tiam7' (not as "quiet") is used more to mean "often" for unusual/unexpected events. As in your examples, "breaking down"/"forgetting to shut the door" are not usual/expected events.
Negative for for emphasis is indeed seen in many languages, is it universal?
"ti7 ti7" is 'te7 te7' in ours, it's derived from 'tit8 tit8' 直直. 'tit8' means straight. 'tit8 tit8' means continuously, it's 'yi1zhi2' 一直 in Mandarin.
You are right that 'put8 si5' means occasionally, once in a while -> in a constant sense.
[%sig%]
the nick name of middle finger should be 'tiong1 i5 a0' 中姨仔 [also read as 'tiong1 i0 a0' which sounds like 'tiong1 i3 a3'].
Chuah, 'khan seng'/'khan1 sing5' 牽成 means "to help, to mentor". 'ka3 liau2' is 到了.
Sim, you are right that 'ka3 liau2' is 'kau3 liau2' 到了. 'ka3 liau2' is not a corrupted form as both are valid and slightly differ in sense. e.g. 'cia8 kau3 liau2' tends to mean "finish the eating"; 'cia8 ka3 liau2' tends to mean "finish all the food, leave none to others". The paralel of 'ka' and 'kau' as the readings of one character (hanji) is also for the word "to teach" 教.
'long2 cong2' 攏總 is used in different manner; it's not placed at the end as 'ka3 liau2' is. And I think that 'long2 cong2 e5 lang5' (all people) is never said as 'ka3 liau2 e5 lang5'. Or do you say it that way?
'phai2 khua*3' 壞看 is the most common word for ugly in ours also. We almost never use 'khiap4 si3'. 'hiong1' is for extremely ugly. Interestingly, 'phai2' 壞 is not nasal for us as it is in other Hokkien dialects. 'phi' 鼻 (nose) is also not nasal in ours.
Sim, your "ta3 ta3 pai4" is 'tak8 tak8 pai2' 逐逐 in ours. 'tak8' means every, as in 'tak8 e5 lang5' 逐的人 everybody/everyone.
"han2 han2" is 'han2 e0' 罕的 in ours.
From what I notice, 'tiam7 tiam7' (not as "quiet") is used more to mean "often" for unusual/unexpected events. As in your examples, "breaking down"/"forgetting to shut the door" are not usual/expected events.
Negative for for emphasis is indeed seen in many languages, is it universal?
"ti7 ti7" is 'te7 te7' in ours, it's derived from 'tit8 tit8' 直直. 'tit8' means straight. 'tit8 tit8' means continuously, it's 'yi1zhi2' 一直 in Mandarin.
You are right that 'put8 si5' means occasionally, once in a while -> in a constant sense.
[%sig%]
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Sim
Re: Question
Niuc,
I can't even BEGIN to express how grateful I am to you and the other contributors to this forum for the insights you give me into my own language.
I mean things like when you explain to me that my "ta3 ta3 pai4" is 'tak8 tak8 pai2' 逐逐? Perhaps out of politeness you say "in our (form) ...", but I'm sure you're simply correct, and that that is what it is in my form also. It's just that my own ignorance of Hokkien means that I don't realise it.
Once you pointed it out, I thought to myself: "Yes, of course. I say 'tak e (lang)', not 'ta e (lang)' for 'everyone', so clearly 'ta ta' is simply (my) informal form of 'tak tak'! ".
Similarly for "ti7 ti7" coming from 'tit8 tit8' 直直.
Interesting distinction you make between "ciah ka liau" and "ciah kau liau". I understand the difference you are trying to express, but I'm not sure if I would say it that way myself. [ BTW, I notice you wrote "cia" instead of "ciah". In my form, there is definitely a glottal stop at the end, but perhaps in your form too, because you wrote tone-8, which is a ru-tone, which implies some stop at the end, right? ]
>> a) 'long2 cong2 e5 lang5' (all people) is never said as 'ka3 liau2 e5 lang5'.
>> b) Or do you say it that way?
Difficult for me to answer this in terms of my own usage.
a) Basically, I don't think I use "long cong". I understand it passively, but never actively use it. If I think about it, my passive sense of how to use it goes like this...
I would never use it in a phrase with "long cong e <x>". I would use it (I think this is the right terminology) *only* as an adverb: "i lang long cong be khi" (="they all want to go"). I say "adverbial" because it's something like:
1. "they want to go" = "i lang be khi".
2. In what *manner* do they want to go?
3. In the manner that "all of them" want it.
The "manner" further describing how they want to go is what I think of as adverbial usage.
To me "long cong e <x>" seems to qualify the noun "<x>", so that seems like a more "adjectival" usage. [ My grasp of grammar is much poorer than my grasp of phonetics and phonology !
].
Anyway, I'm just trying to say that I would only use "long cong" adverbially, not adjectivally.
b) In fact, I *do* sometimes say "ka liau e lang", but when you forced me to think, it started to sound a bit incorrect. I realised that "ka liau lang" sounds correct, and that's the form I most often use.
Once again, thanks for the insights you give me into Hokkien. I really appreciate it.
Sim.
[%sig%]
I can't even BEGIN to express how grateful I am to you and the other contributors to this forum for the insights you give me into my own language.
I mean things like when you explain to me that my "ta3 ta3 pai4" is 'tak8 tak8 pai2' 逐逐? Perhaps out of politeness you say "in our (form) ...", but I'm sure you're simply correct, and that that is what it is in my form also. It's just that my own ignorance of Hokkien means that I don't realise it.
Once you pointed it out, I thought to myself: "Yes, of course. I say 'tak e (lang)', not 'ta e (lang)' for 'everyone', so clearly 'ta ta' is simply (my) informal form of 'tak tak'! ".
Similarly for "ti7 ti7" coming from 'tit8 tit8' 直直.
Interesting distinction you make between "ciah ka liau" and "ciah kau liau". I understand the difference you are trying to express, but I'm not sure if I would say it that way myself. [ BTW, I notice you wrote "cia" instead of "ciah". In my form, there is definitely a glottal stop at the end, but perhaps in your form too, because you wrote tone-8, which is a ru-tone, which implies some stop at the end, right? ]
>> a) 'long2 cong2 e5 lang5' (all people) is never said as 'ka3 liau2 e5 lang5'.
>> b) Or do you say it that way?
Difficult for me to answer this in terms of my own usage.
a) Basically, I don't think I use "long cong". I understand it passively, but never actively use it. If I think about it, my passive sense of how to use it goes like this...
I would never use it in a phrase with "long cong e <x>". I would use it (I think this is the right terminology) *only* as an adverb: "i lang long cong be khi" (="they all want to go"). I say "adverbial" because it's something like:
1. "they want to go" = "i lang be khi".
2. In what *manner* do they want to go?
3. In the manner that "all of them" want it.
The "manner" further describing how they want to go is what I think of as adverbial usage.
To me "long cong e <x>" seems to qualify the noun "<x>", so that seems like a more "adjectival" usage. [ My grasp of grammar is much poorer than my grasp of phonetics and phonology !
].Anyway, I'm just trying to say that I would only use "long cong" adverbially, not adjectivally.
b) In fact, I *do* sometimes say "ka liau e lang", but when you forced me to think, it started to sound a bit incorrect. I realised that "ka liau lang" sounds correct, and that's the form I most often use.
Once again, thanks for the insights you give me into Hokkien. I really appreciate it.
Sim.
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Niuc
Re: Question
Sim,
You are very modest
We all are learning from each other. I am really grateful to have all friends here.
BTW when I said "in ours..." I wasn't being polite since I believe that every accents have their own characteristics. Ours also has pronunciations that are different from "the standard" e.g. 'te7 te7' instead of 'tit8 tit8'. These may seem as "deviation" from "standard" form but they are natural (at least for me).
Our 'cia8'/'ciah8' is indeed a 'jip8'/ru tone with glottal stop (abrupt stop). Usually I don't write 'h' to indicate glottal stop not only because they are quite obvious from the tone registers. Personally I think that 'h' at the end of a vowel should be pronounced and the glottal stop actually is not a 'h' sound.
I also want to thank you as I have been learning a lot from you too. Now I realize that in our usage, 'long2 cong2' functions as both adverb and adjective. Thanks
[%sig%]
You are very modest
We all are learning from each other. I am really grateful to have all friends here.
BTW when I said "in ours..." I wasn't being polite since I believe that every accents have their own characteristics. Ours also has pronunciations that are different from "the standard" e.g. 'te7 te7' instead of 'tit8 tit8'. These may seem as "deviation" from "standard" form but they are natural (at least for me).
Our 'cia8'/'ciah8' is indeed a 'jip8'/ru tone with glottal stop (abrupt stop). Usually I don't write 'h' to indicate glottal stop not only because they are quite obvious from the tone registers. Personally I think that 'h' at the end of a vowel should be pronounced and the glottal stop actually is not a 'h' sound.
I also want to thank you as I have been learning a lot from you too. Now I realize that in our usage, 'long2 cong2' functions as both adverb and adjective. Thanks
[%sig%]