Trying to reduce the size of the threads by starting a new one
My impression of the tones in my (Penang) accent are:
1: |44| -> |22|
2: |53| -> |44|
3: |22| -> |53| or sometimes maybe |44|?
4: |2| -> |4|
5: |13| -> |22|
7: |22| -> |22|
8: |4| -> |2|
An interesting page with recordings is http://www.glossika.com/en/dict/taiwanese/tones.htm
To me the 3,7 and 4 tones sound far too high.
Tones
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Niuc
Re: Tones
I posted in this thread http://www.chineselanguage.org/forum/re ... =753&t=753 that in our accent, from my amateur observation (proximity):
[tone pitch -> sandhi pitch]
1: |55| -> 7: |22|
2: |21| -> |25|
3: |11| -> 8: |53| or 1: |55|
4: |21| -> 8: |53|
5: |13| -> 3: |11|
7: |22| -> 3: |11|
8: |53| -> 3: |11|
0: |1| (neutral tone)
>Niuc: Your 2nd tone is very bizarre. If you look at glossika, you will find only two or three Minnan subdialects that do not have a |53| or similar tone
>andrew
Andrew, you are right that according to glossika http://www.glossika.com/en/dict/tones/min.htm#mnxiamen only 2 accents listed with |21| for tone 2. And those two places are unlikely to be related to our accent.
After reading http://www.glossika.com/en/dict/tones/tutorial.htm#tc , I am a bit confused. My amateur observation on pitch in our accent may have many errors, I'll try to learn more on this. Btw, is the |55| used in this system equal to [sol sol] in music notation, and in which key?
From audio samples in http://www.glossika.com/en/dict/taiwanese/tones.htm , I find that tone 2 there is very similar to our tone 8; 3 to 2. And somehow words in combination (sandhi) sound more similar between Taiwanese & our accent than their original/base tones.
[%sig%]
[tone pitch -> sandhi pitch]
1: |55| -> 7: |22|
2: |21| -> |25|
3: |11| -> 8: |53| or 1: |55|
4: |21| -> 8: |53|
5: |13| -> 3: |11|
7: |22| -> 3: |11|
8: |53| -> 3: |11|
0: |1| (neutral tone)
>Niuc: Your 2nd tone is very bizarre. If you look at glossika, you will find only two or three Minnan subdialects that do not have a |53| or similar tone
>andrew
Andrew, you are right that according to glossika http://www.glossika.com/en/dict/tones/min.htm#mnxiamen only 2 accents listed with |21| for tone 2. And those two places are unlikely to be related to our accent.
After reading http://www.glossika.com/en/dict/tones/tutorial.htm#tc , I am a bit confused. My amateur observation on pitch in our accent may have many errors, I'll try to learn more on this. Btw, is the |55| used in this system equal to [sol sol] in music notation, and in which key?
From audio samples in http://www.glossika.com/en/dict/taiwanese/tones.htm , I find that tone 2 there is very similar to our tone 8; 3 to 2. And somehow words in combination (sandhi) sound more similar between Taiwanese & our accent than their original/base tones.
[%sig%]
-
Niuc
Re: Tones
These links below were posted by Kaiah in another forum:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
中國中央廣播電台介紹閩南語的廣播節目
<閩台文化從頭說>之六:閩南話--跨越省界,國界的漢語言(2003/09/03)
<mms://202.108.170.101/2003-9-3minnan.wmv>
<閩台文化從頭說>閩南話--古漢語的"活化石"(上)(2003/09/07)
<mms://202.108.170.101/2003-9-7minnan.wmv>
《閩台文化從頭說》閩南話--古漢語的活化石(下)(2003/09/10)
<mms://202.108.170.101/2003-9-10.minnan.wmv>
出自:
http://www.nihaotw.com/minnan/jiemu_list.asp?type=5
[ Last edited by kaiah on 14-9-2003 at 11:33 AM ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[quoted from http://chinese.cari.com.my/forum/viewth ... d=xMo7RlCI ]
From these audio samples, I can confirm that tones & sandhi in our accent are very similar (practically identical) to those in E-mng (Xiamen) accent. I noticed that the sandhi form of 'si5 kan1' (time) is 'si3 kan1', same with ours. But the sandhi form of 'hua5 lin5' (Chinese people) is 'hua7 lin2', different from our 'hua3 lin5'. Casey & friends, does E-mng accent have two sandhi for 5th tone?
What I don't know clearly is how the system [55] [24] etc defined for those tones. There is [51] for tone 2 for Xiamen tone list in this page http://www.glossika.com/en/dict/tones/min.htm , corresponding to my [21]. Yet I think [5] in [51] may be too high for the tone. Please help to enlighten me. Thanks.
E-mng 'o' is very close to our 'er' ['@'] e.g. E-mng 'ho' (good) sounds almost like our 'her' ['h@'] (fire).
"Danger" is 'gui5 hiam2' in E-mng (& other) accent, but we usually say 'hui5 hiam2'. I don't know if our 'hui5' is a corrupted version of 'gui5' or it indeed exists in 'Tang ua*' accent. Anybody pronounce it this way too?
[%sig%]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
中國中央廣播電台介紹閩南語的廣播節目
<閩台文化從頭說>之六:閩南話--跨越省界,國界的漢語言(2003/09/03)
<mms://202.108.170.101/2003-9-3minnan.wmv>
<閩台文化從頭說>閩南話--古漢語的"活化石"(上)(2003/09/07)
<mms://202.108.170.101/2003-9-7minnan.wmv>
《閩台文化從頭說》閩南話--古漢語的活化石(下)(2003/09/10)
<mms://202.108.170.101/2003-9-10.minnan.wmv>
出自:
http://www.nihaotw.com/minnan/jiemu_list.asp?type=5
[ Last edited by kaiah on 14-9-2003 at 11:33 AM ]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[quoted from http://chinese.cari.com.my/forum/viewth ... d=xMo7RlCI ]
From these audio samples, I can confirm that tones & sandhi in our accent are very similar (practically identical) to those in E-mng (Xiamen) accent. I noticed that the sandhi form of 'si5 kan1' (time) is 'si3 kan1', same with ours. But the sandhi form of 'hua5 lin5' (Chinese people) is 'hua7 lin2', different from our 'hua3 lin5'. Casey & friends, does E-mng accent have two sandhi for 5th tone?
What I don't know clearly is how the system [55] [24] etc defined for those tones. There is [51] for tone 2 for Xiamen tone list in this page http://www.glossika.com/en/dict/tones/min.htm , corresponding to my [21]. Yet I think [5] in [51] may be too high for the tone. Please help to enlighten me. Thanks.
E-mng 'o' is very close to our 'er' ['@'] e.g. E-mng 'ho' (good) sounds almost like our 'her' ['h@'] (fire).
"Danger" is 'gui5 hiam2' in E-mng (& other) accent, but we usually say 'hui5 hiam2'. I don't know if our 'hui5' is a corrupted version of 'gui5' or it indeed exists in 'Tang ua*' accent. Anybody pronounce it this way too?
[%sig%]
-
Casey
Re: Tones
Niuc
To answer your question about whether the E-mng accent has two forms of sandhi for tone 5, i.e., tone 7 and tone 3, my personal opinion is given as follows:
In your example: "si5 kan1" in sandhi form should have been "si7 kan1" according to the "tone-change rule" rule, yet in the radio programme, http://www.nihaotw.com/minnan/jiemu_list.asp?type=5, it was pronounced similar to "si3 kan1". I have listened to that programme and other programmes from the same station, and noted that the sandhi form of tone 5 was pronounced in a lower than normal tone, making tone 7 sounded like tone 3. "si3 kan1" was not the only example. There were numerous others like: "ban3 lam5" (minnan), "tong3 tiau5" (Tang Dynasty), "tai3 wan5" (Taiwan), "e3 mng3 we7" (Xiamen dialect), etc. which should have been "ban7 lam5", "tong7 tiau5", "tai7 wan5", "e3 mng7 we7", etc. respectively according to the "tone-change rule". Perhaps, Tang5 Ua*1 is close to E7 Mng5 geographically, hence the similarity between your pronounciation and that of the radio station. Personally, I do not think there are two forms of sandhi. It is just that the person saying it using a lower tone making it difficult to differentiate tone 3 and tone 7. I guess that this could be the reason why in Penang Hokkien, tone 3 and tone 7 are confused as mentioned by Sim before.
Interestingly, I also noticed in one of the programmes of the same radio station, the term "Chui*1 Mia5 Chue4" (Ching Ming Festival) was used.(Again the sandhi form of tone 5 was closer to tone 3 than tone 7, "chui*7 mia3 chue4" instead of "chui*7 mia7 chue4"). This is different from what we have discussed before.
As for "gui5 hiam2" and "hui5 hiam2", I think it is due to differences from place to place. For example "从头讲" in the rado station it was pronounced as "ui3 thau5 kong2" while many of us pronounce it as "tui3 thau5 kong2".
To answer your question about whether the E-mng accent has two forms of sandhi for tone 5, i.e., tone 7 and tone 3, my personal opinion is given as follows:
In your example: "si5 kan1" in sandhi form should have been "si7 kan1" according to the "tone-change rule" rule, yet in the radio programme, http://www.nihaotw.com/minnan/jiemu_list.asp?type=5, it was pronounced similar to "si3 kan1". I have listened to that programme and other programmes from the same station, and noted that the sandhi form of tone 5 was pronounced in a lower than normal tone, making tone 7 sounded like tone 3. "si3 kan1" was not the only example. There were numerous others like: "ban3 lam5" (minnan), "tong3 tiau5" (Tang Dynasty), "tai3 wan5" (Taiwan), "e3 mng3 we7" (Xiamen dialect), etc. which should have been "ban7 lam5", "tong7 tiau5", "tai7 wan5", "e3 mng7 we7", etc. respectively according to the "tone-change rule". Perhaps, Tang5 Ua*1 is close to E7 Mng5 geographically, hence the similarity between your pronounciation and that of the radio station. Personally, I do not think there are two forms of sandhi. It is just that the person saying it using a lower tone making it difficult to differentiate tone 3 and tone 7. I guess that this could be the reason why in Penang Hokkien, tone 3 and tone 7 are confused as mentioned by Sim before.
Interestingly, I also noticed in one of the programmes of the same radio station, the term "Chui*1 Mia5 Chue4" (Ching Ming Festival) was used.(Again the sandhi form of tone 5 was closer to tone 3 than tone 7, "chui*7 mia3 chue4" instead of "chui*7 mia7 chue4"). This is different from what we have discussed before.
As for "gui5 hiam2" and "hui5 hiam2", I think it is due to differences from place to place. For example "从头讲" in the rado station it was pronounced as "ui3 thau5 kong2" while many of us pronounce it as "tui3 thau5 kong2".
-
Niuc
Re: Tones
Casey
Thanks a lot for the info. I think that even within the same 'accent area', many people do have their own 'styled' pronunciation. This is also true for my hometown, although the differences are minor. The absence of formal Hokkien education is the main reason, I think.
'Chui*1 Mia5' is an interesting pronunciation. I just came to know it. Also 'ui3 thau5 kong2'. Btw, are there anybody here say 'tai5 uan1' instead of 'tai5 uan5' for Taiwan? 'tai5 uan1' is indeed influenced by Mandarin. Both are used by us.
[%sig%]
Thanks a lot for the info. I think that even within the same 'accent area', many people do have their own 'styled' pronunciation. This is also true for my hometown, although the differences are minor. The absence of formal Hokkien education is the main reason, I think.
'Chui*1 Mia5' is an interesting pronunciation. I just came to know it. Also 'ui3 thau5 kong2'. Btw, are there anybody here say 'tai5 uan1' instead of 'tai5 uan5' for Taiwan? 'tai5 uan1' is indeed influenced by Mandarin. Both are used by us.
[%sig%]