"Busybody" expressed in Hokkien is "ke1 po5". In TV programs and movies, it is commonly translated in Mandarin as "ji1 po2" (鸡婆？). I find this irritating. From my limited layman knowledge, "ke1 po5" should be "家婆“ in Hanzi. It is the abbreviated form of "管家婆" (guan3 jia1 po2) (house keeper). It is not “鸡婆" because in all Minnan dialect subgroups it is pronounced as "ke1 po5", otherwise it should have been "koe1 po5" in Xiamen and Quanzhou subgroup, while in the Zhangzhou subgroup it remians as "ke1 po5".
"ke1 po5" cannot be translated literally into Mandarin because there is no such expression in Mandarin. The Mandarin equivalent should be "多事" or "多管闲事”.
"Busybody" in Hokkien
-
Niuc
Re: "Busybody" in Hokkien
Yeah, 'ke1 pou5' is certainly not 雞婆 (Mdr: ji1po2, 'kue1 pou5' in our dialect). There is high chance that its proper characters are 家婆 (Mdr: jia1po2), but they won't write it this way since 家婆 means 'mother-in-law' in Mandarin.
The phrase 'ke1 kang1' means "doing more than proper limit" in negative sense. I think it's written as 加工. 'ke1' 加 here doesn't mean "to add" but something like "additional", "not required", "excessive".....I wonder if 'ke1 pou5' can be 加婆.
[%sig%]
The phrase 'ke1 kang1' means "doing more than proper limit" in negative sense. I think it's written as 加工. 'ke1' 加 here doesn't mean "to add" but something like "additional", "not required", "excessive".....I wonder if 'ke1 pou5' can be 加婆.
[%sig%]
-
Andrew Yong
Re: "Busybody" in Hokkien
加婆 would be kE po in Chiangchew/Penang, not ke po. In Penang the phrase is often ke1 po5 chi2.
-
Niuc
Re: "Busybody" in Hokkien
Hi Andrew,
Thanks a lot for the info. Then it may not be 加婆. Is 'chi2' in 'ke1 po5 chi2' 姊 (elder sister, 'ci2')?
How do you pronounce 家 (home/family) in Penang Hokkien, is it 'kE' or 'ke'? Could you please give more examples on 'E' vs 'e'. Is there any equivalent sound of 'E' in English? I need more examples since in my dialect there is no 'E' sound hence I may not know how to differentiate them.
Thanks!
[%sig%]
Thanks a lot for the info. Then it may not be 加婆. Is 'chi2' in 'ke1 po5 chi2' 姊 (elder sister, 'ci2')?
How do you pronounce 家 (home/family) in Penang Hokkien, is it 'kE' or 'ke'? Could you please give more examples on 'E' vs 'e'. Is there any equivalent sound of 'E' in English? I need more examples since in my dialect there is no 'E' sound hence I may not know how to differentiate them.
Thanks!
[%sig%]
-
Andrew Yong
Re: "Busybody" in Hokkien
I don't know which chi it is.
Actually 家 is also pronounced kE, e.g. chhin-kE, thau-kE. What is the literary pronunciation?
E is the IPA symbol (small) epsilon, like a mirror image number 3, like in English bet or Mandarin ye or Hakka he.
andrew
Actually 家 is also pronounced kE, e.g. chhin-kE, thau-kE. What is the literary pronunciation?
E is the IPA symbol (small) epsilon, like a mirror image number 3, like in English bet or Mandarin ye or Hakka he.
andrew
-
Casey
Re: "Busybody" in Hokkien
Yes, both "家" and "加" are pronounced as "kE" in Chiang Chiu/Penang accent.
The Penang expression of "ke1 po5 ji2" could have been "ke1 po5 jih8" (家婆舌) meaning a busybody always wags his tongue.
The Penang expression of "ke1 po5 ji2" could have been "ke1 po5 jih8" (家婆舌) meaning a busybody always wags his tongue.
-
Sim
Re: "Busybody" in Hokkien
Hi Andrew,
I have previously observed that in both Penang Hokkien and non-Penang Hokkien there are 2 types of “o” - the closed-o and the open-o - in ASCII IPA “ho” (good) vs. “hO” (tiger). As you undoubtedly also know, the latter is transcribed as a lowercase “o” with a non-closure on the left hand side, sort of like an upside-down “c”. I think this is transcribed as “ho” (good) vs. “ho.” (tiger) in some systems (where the dot is not at the bottom, but is at the same height as the top of the “o”). I believe some other transcription systems make this “ho” (good) vs. “hoo” (tiger). [ Further examples of this are “bo” (female of an animal) vs. “bO” (wife), “go” (goose) vs. “gO” (five) (though the latter pair are also distinguished by having different tones), but I give these more for the benefit of other readers, as I think we both speak the same variant
]
I have also previously observed however, that it is only in Penang Hokkien that there are 2 types of “e”, the closed-e and the open-e - in ASCII IPA “be” (buy) vs. “bE” (horse), “peh” (eight) vs. “pEh” (father’s elder brother, or to climb) [ here I’m using “-h” for the glottal stop ].
So, I definitely agree with you that Penang Hokkien for “busybody” is “ke po” not “kE po”.
I also agree that in Penang the phrase is often 3 syllables rather than 2, but I personally would have transcribed the last syllable “ci~” (“c” = IPA “ts”, with no aspiration, and ~ = nasalisation). Now, your writing “chi” does not necessarily imply that you are aspirating, because you might transcribe the aspirated equivalent as “chhi”, so perhaps we are pronouncing that aspect of the syllable in the same way. However, I definitely pronounce it nasalised, whereas you don’t.
So, in summary, (in my transcription) I would say: “ke po ci~” whereas you seem to be saying “ke po chi” (but perhaps you say “ke po ci” (or perhaps you even say “ke po ci~ and neglected to indicate the nasalisation).
I really wish we had a standard way of transcribing (the various variants of) Hokkien instead of all of us having to explain our transcription systems with every single post we make!
Best regards,
Sim.
I have previously observed that in both Penang Hokkien and non-Penang Hokkien there are 2 types of “o” - the closed-o and the open-o - in ASCII IPA “ho” (good) vs. “hO” (tiger). As you undoubtedly also know, the latter is transcribed as a lowercase “o” with a non-closure on the left hand side, sort of like an upside-down “c”. I think this is transcribed as “ho” (good) vs. “ho.” (tiger) in some systems (where the dot is not at the bottom, but is at the same height as the top of the “o”). I believe some other transcription systems make this “ho” (good) vs. “hoo” (tiger). [ Further examples of this are “bo” (female of an animal) vs. “bO” (wife), “go” (goose) vs. “gO” (five) (though the latter pair are also distinguished by having different tones), but I give these more for the benefit of other readers, as I think we both speak the same variant
]I have also previously observed however, that it is only in Penang Hokkien that there are 2 types of “e”, the closed-e and the open-e - in ASCII IPA “be” (buy) vs. “bE” (horse), “peh” (eight) vs. “pEh” (father’s elder brother, or to climb) [ here I’m using “-h” for the glottal stop ].
So, I definitely agree with you that Penang Hokkien for “busybody” is “ke po” not “kE po”.
I also agree that in Penang the phrase is often 3 syllables rather than 2, but I personally would have transcribed the last syllable “ci~” (“c” = IPA “ts”, with no aspiration, and ~ = nasalisation). Now, your writing “chi” does not necessarily imply that you are aspirating, because you might transcribe the aspirated equivalent as “chhi”, so perhaps we are pronouncing that aspect of the syllable in the same way. However, I definitely pronounce it nasalised, whereas you don’t.
So, in summary, (in my transcription) I would say: “ke po ci~” whereas you seem to be saying “ke po chi” (but perhaps you say “ke po ci” (or perhaps you even say “ke po ci~ and neglected to indicate the nasalisation).
I really wish we had a standard way of transcribing (the various variants of) Hokkien instead of all of us having to explain our transcription systems with every single post we make!
Best regards,
Sim.
-
Sim
Re: "Busybody" in Hokkien
Hi Casey,
Please see my response to Andrew, in this same topic, at http://www.chineselanguage.org/forum/re ... =771&t=753
I noticed that you have yet another variant for the pronunciation of the third syllable of "ke po XX", namely "ji".
I presume by this you mean the "voiced affricate" (as in English, "judge", "John", "Jim", "Jane"). Also you - like Andrew - don't nasalise the syllable. Perhaps I'm pronouncing it wrong!
My pronunciation, "ci~" rhymes with the verb which means "to force something into a tight space".
Regards,
Sim.
[%sig%]
Please see my response to Andrew, in this same topic, at http://www.chineselanguage.org/forum/re ... =771&t=753
I noticed that you have yet another variant for the pronunciation of the third syllable of "ke po XX", namely "ji".
I presume by this you mean the "voiced affricate" (as in English, "judge", "John", "Jim", "Jane"). Also you - like Andrew - don't nasalise the syllable. Perhaps I'm pronouncing it wrong!
My pronunciation, "ci~" rhymes with the verb which means "to force something into a tight space".
Regards,
Sim.
[%sig%]
-
Niuc
Re: "Busybody" in Hokkien
Hi Andrew, Casey & Sim:
From your examples, I find that 'e' in Ciangciu/Penang paralel to 'ue' in E-mng/Cuanciu and 'E' to 'e'.
I just asked a friend who speaks Medan Hokkien about 'E' vs 'e'. Medan Hokkien is very similar [though not equivalent] to Penang Hokkien. His 'E' vs 'e' is similar to Penang Hokkien i.e. 'be' (buy) vs 'bE' (horse). 加 (add) is 'kE' but 家 is 'ke'. He thinks that 'ke po' is 家婆 and 'ke po ci~' (super 'ke po') is 家婆精 (ci~ "demon").
I also hope that we'll have a standardization for Hokkien romanization. But without any authority board deciding on this issue, it's really hard to have one. Moreover, there is no standard Hokkien in real sense although E-mng dialect is the representative. Personally I believe that dialect variations should be retained. These variations should be taken care of in designing a romanization system. This, of course, will make the system more complex.
Church Romanization is easy to learn yet contains many symbols not found in our plain keyboard. The 'ch' & 'chh' in CR can be simplified to 'c' & 'ch'. I prefer to write 'o`' (o with a dot in CR, as in 'ho`' tiger) as 'o' and 'o' (without dot in CR, as in 'ho' good) as 'ou' because 'ou' in 'hou' [good] is the sound between 'o' and 'u'. I prefer '*' for nasal to '~' since '~' looks more like a tone indication. In Tang-ua* & Cuanciu dialects there are 'er' & 'ir'/'y' sounds. Also 明 (bright) sounds 'bing' in these two dialects, but may be more like 'beng' in Ciangciu dialect. Also standardization of 'E' vs 'e' as in Ciangciu dialect. Romanization system should include tone indications, whether to use numbers or diacritics, whether to write the basic tones or shift tones. There are quite a number of issues on romanization.
If there is a will, we can discuss more about an all inclusive romanization system for Hokkien dialects. What do you think?
Best Regards,
Niuc
[%sig%]
From your examples, I find that 'e' in Ciangciu/Penang paralel to 'ue' in E-mng/Cuanciu and 'E' to 'e'.
I just asked a friend who speaks Medan Hokkien about 'E' vs 'e'. Medan Hokkien is very similar [though not equivalent] to Penang Hokkien. His 'E' vs 'e' is similar to Penang Hokkien i.e. 'be' (buy) vs 'bE' (horse). 加 (add) is 'kE' but 家 is 'ke'. He thinks that 'ke po' is 家婆 and 'ke po ci~' (super 'ke po') is 家婆精 (ci~ "demon").
I also hope that we'll have a standardization for Hokkien romanization. But without any authority board deciding on this issue, it's really hard to have one. Moreover, there is no standard Hokkien in real sense although E-mng dialect is the representative. Personally I believe that dialect variations should be retained. These variations should be taken care of in designing a romanization system. This, of course, will make the system more complex.
Church Romanization is easy to learn yet contains many symbols not found in our plain keyboard. The 'ch' & 'chh' in CR can be simplified to 'c' & 'ch'. I prefer to write 'o`' (o with a dot in CR, as in 'ho`' tiger) as 'o' and 'o' (without dot in CR, as in 'ho' good) as 'ou' because 'ou' in 'hou' [good] is the sound between 'o' and 'u'. I prefer '*' for nasal to '~' since '~' looks more like a tone indication. In Tang-ua* & Cuanciu dialects there are 'er' & 'ir'/'y' sounds. Also 明 (bright) sounds 'bing' in these two dialects, but may be more like 'beng' in Ciangciu dialect. Also standardization of 'E' vs 'e' as in Ciangciu dialect. Romanization system should include tone indications, whether to use numbers or diacritics, whether to write the basic tones or shift tones. There are quite a number of issues on romanization.
If there is a will, we can discuss more about an all inclusive romanization system for Hokkien dialects. What do you think?
Best Regards,
Niuc
[%sig%]
-
Andrew Yong
Re: "Busybody" in Hokkien
Just got my Douglas-Barclay dictionary in the post! I bought it second-hand for $US 80.
Under po5 (old woman), Barclay has ke1-po5 a woman in charge of house affairs connected with women; a talebearer. m3-bien2 li2 teh4 ke1-po5 don't come here with your stories.
The entry doesn't give which ke1 it is, but I think it is ke1 (the women's part of the house) written mng5/mui~5 (gate) with two thO2 (earth)'s underneath. This word is not in the main dictionary, so I don't know how it is pronounced in Changchew. However only very few words are ke in both Amoy and Changchew: most of them are ke/kE or koe/ke or ke/koe.
Alternatively, under ke1 (household), there is gau5 ke7 ke1, of woman, given to gossiping round the neighbourhood. I know all these are gossips rather than busybodies, but it is as close as I can find.
My transliteration is the one used in Douglas. Ch is contrasted with ts and chh, but I am not very good at writing sounds in my head. I use the Usenet ASCII IPA O and E for mirror c and mirror 3 respectively. I agree that c and ch are more logical. Since there is no confusion with ng, how about N for the nasal sound, e.g. piaN2 (biscuit).
I find in my Penang sub-dialect/idiolect ch (pinyin j) and ts (pinyin z) are inter-changeable, but ch is more common. Also, the tones 3 and 7 are indistinguishable except in sandhi form.
andrew
Under po5 (old woman), Barclay has ke1-po5 a woman in charge of house affairs connected with women; a talebearer. m3-bien2 li2 teh4 ke1-po5 don't come here with your stories.
The entry doesn't give which ke1 it is, but I think it is ke1 (the women's part of the house) written mng5/mui~5 (gate) with two thO2 (earth)'s underneath. This word is not in the main dictionary, so I don't know how it is pronounced in Changchew. However only very few words are ke in both Amoy and Changchew: most of them are ke/kE or koe/ke or ke/koe.
Alternatively, under ke1 (household), there is gau5 ke7 ke1, of woman, given to gossiping round the neighbourhood. I know all these are gossips rather than busybodies, but it is as close as I can find.
My transliteration is the one used in Douglas. Ch is contrasted with ts and chh, but I am not very good at writing sounds in my head. I use the Usenet ASCII IPA O and E for mirror c and mirror 3 respectively. I agree that c and ch are more logical. Since there is no confusion with ng, how about N for the nasal sound, e.g. piaN2 (biscuit).
I find in my Penang sub-dialect/idiolect ch (pinyin j) and ts (pinyin z) are inter-changeable, but ch is more common. Also, the tones 3 and 7 are indistinguishable except in sandhi form.
andrew