"Busybody" in Hokkien

[Miles]

Wow! Thanks so much for all the info. I know a lot more now. Thanks also Sim for the reply to the other post. I was wondering where you all learn to put the correct intonation by putting numbers beside the words like what was done to my 'lau5 siong5'. Do you get that from books/dictionaries? Or is there an internet resource I could use? I'd much prefer using the internet as there are quite limited chinese books here. Or rather, I believe I have seen none besides the textbooks we used back when I was in elementary and high school. Also, I'm already familiar with the Tsinoy.com site. But I'm really more interested in this forum as most people here seem to be much more knowledgeable regarding these kinds of topics.

[Niuc]

Miles, there are many links for learning Hokkien in this forum. You also can do search using google/yahoo with keywords: Hokkien, Minnan, Taiwanese etc. Btw, share more with us if you have time ok.

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[andrew_yong]

I use poa*5 for plate.

Douglas gives phiet4 (Tongan phiet8, Chiangchew poa*5). Barclay gives no character for this word, but gives a character for poa*5.

[Niuc]

Andrew, I think all Hokkien use 盤 'poa*5'/'pua*5' for plate. 'phiet4'/'phiat8' is saucer, not plate. It's '石+匹' in 廈門方言詞典.

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[andrew_yong]

Niuc: My understanding of Douglas' entry is that the word phiet4 is not used in Chiangchew, which uses poa*5 instead. I don't think he thought that they were the same word.

Sim: the easiest way to differentiate 3 and 7 is through their sandhi forms, if you know them. These are the sandhi rules:

1 -> 7
^ v <- 5 (becomes either 3 or 7 depending on place)
2 <- 3

4<->8

If a word ends with h (glottal stop), k, p or t, then it must be either 4 or 8. If it doesn't it can't. 4 and 8 interchange in sandhi form, so be careful when transcribing them.

andrew

[Casey]

"Phiat4" is originated from the word "plate". This is confirmed in the "Dictionary of Minnan Dialect of Similar Source with Ancient Han Lanuage" (&#38397;南方言与古&#27721;&#35821;同源&#35789;典).

[Sim]

Hi Andrew,

I'm sorry but I don't quite understand the explanation for how to distinguish tone-3 and tone-7 words.

When you say:

...
... ^ v <- 5 (becomes either 3 or 7 depending on place)
...

then I suppose you are saying that a 5-tone becomes a 3 or a 7 depending on place.

But:
a) I don't understand what the symbols "^" and "v" mean.
b) Even if I did, this seems to be saying what tone-5 *becomes*, i.e. that the *sandhi*-form is one of tone-3 or tone-7. I thought you were trying to explain how to determine which words are (in their canonical/*non-sandhi* form) tone-3 or tone-7.

Sorry that I'm so confused about this.

In a new thread, I'll try and post the situation as far as I understand it, and check that some of my assumptions are correct. If that is confirmed by you and other readers who know Penang Hokkien, then I propose posting a list of tone-3/tone-7 words (which I can't tell apart). Then you (or others) could do me a big favour and sort these into 2 separate lists, one for tone-3 and one for tone-7, and explain to me using sandhi examples how you worked it out.

Thanks,
Sim.

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[Andrew Yong]

Sorry, my attempt at ASCII art was foiled by the font.

Basically, it is circlical

1->7->3->2->1

5->3 or 7

4<->8

To distinguish 3 and 7: e.g. chhau, smelly, must be 3 because in sandhi form it is pronounced chhau2 bi and not chhau3 bi


andrew

[Sim]

>> "grasshopper": "chhao2 me2"

Curiously, the only way I say ""grasshopper" is "chau1 me1 kOng1" (i.e. always with the word "kOng", even for very small grasshoppers).

Does anyone know the difference between "la3 gia5" and "ti3 tu1"? For "cobwebs", I say both "la3 gia3 si1" and "ti3 tu3 si1" (without a difference in meaning), but for "spider" itself, I would only ever say "la3 gia5" [ or spai1 d@2 ]. A link I saw somewhere said that one of them was a very specific *sort* of spider, and the other was the generic term for spider.


>> We use "thai2 ko1 pe*7(pi*7)" for leprosy.

So do I. But fortunately I don't have to use it very often.

What *is* common is "thai1/thai2 ko3 kam1 (e3 hioh8)" ((the leaves of) a low citrus fruit). It's used in the making of some delicious curry dishes, and it's called that because the fruit (roundish, between the size of a lime and a lemon) have a very gnarled and rough surface, as if they are diseased / have leprosy.

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[Sim]

>> it is pronounced chhau2 bi and not chhau3 bi

Sigh. I'm going to have to tie a (good) Penang Hokkien speaker down and do some real phonetic / phonemic analysis, because it appears that my accent is just not good enough.

I would pronounce the citation form "chau3", and the sandhi form "chau1 bi3".