Hokkien Dialects in Guangdong

[Niuc]

Hi Casey

Thanks for your info & examples given.

In Church Romanization or Peh-oe-ji it's written with '-h': tioh, peh, toh.....
Now I know that it's called glottal stop. Thanks.

[%sig%]

[Casey]

Thanks! Niuc,
for your correction of proper word romanization, a system which I am yet to learn. even though I may be able to read a little. In fact, I am learning a lot from this website through reading all the postings. They are both interesting and informative.

[Niuc]

Hi Casey,

Actually I didn't mean to correct you hence no thanks needed. I just want to say that now I know what thing '-h' in Church Romanization indicating glottal stop. Since you weren't using this romanization, you didn't need correction, right?

If you want to learn Church Romanization / Peh-oe-ji, there are some websites. CR is easy and suitable for Hokkien. I prefer it to some other romanizations. Yet I think some parts of CR can be simplified, e.g. I think that 'c & ch' is more suitable than 'ch & chh' of CR.

I also learn a lot from all friends here including you. Thanks to all.

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[A]

Longdu dialects info:
http://www.pinoysite.com/regional/longdu/1.gif
http://www.pinoysite.com/regional/longdu/2.gif
http://www.pinoysite.com/regional/longdu/3.gif

[Ehlam Chua]

Terrific !!
That pick me up !!

[Sim]

Hi Niuc,

Some anecdotes:

1. When I was young, my mother used to tell me that she didn't like to be photographed from the side, and would always try to turn to face the camera, if someone was taking pictures. She said she did this because Hokkiens (which she is) "have very flat faces, which look very ugly in profile" !!!

2. When I was at university in Australia, I became very good friends with an Australian man, Ross (he eventually married a Singaporean girl). After his very first trip to Penang, he came back to tell me excitedly: "Oh, when I looked around me in Penang, SO MANY PEOPLE LOOKED LIKE SIM!!!!". Apparently I have very typical (Penang) Hokkien features.

Sim.

P.S. I had a parallel experience too. I had a very close Scottish friend, Ian, in Australia, whom I always just used to think of as "himself". When I went to Scotland, I looked up his parents in his home-town, and true enough, about 30% of the men I saw had features which I had (up to that point) always thought of as "unique to Ian".

[%sig%]

[Sim]

Hi Niuc,

I too like Church Romanization / Peh-oe-ji a lot. I agree with you that "c & ch" are nicer than "ch & chh" (why not use a single c, it's not used for anything else anyway, plus it matches Malay/Indonesian).

I think my own romanisation differs from CR in some ways. I write "-ua-" where I think CR writes "-oa-". This is a typical problem with the transcription of diphthongs in many languages actually. In many languages (e.g. German), the diphthongs transcribed "ai", "au", "ua", "ia" are often pronounced (phonetically) [ae], [ao], [oa], [ea]. That is to say, the begin or end points are not as high as the transcription sugggests.

It really doesn't matter, because "psychologically", the speaker often thinks that (s)he is going to the highest point, it's just that in practice they don't. The intended diphthong is clear in any case.

Cheers,
Sim.

[%sig%]

[Dylan Sung]

I'm not a usual contributor to this forum, but having read this thread, and having received a recent private request for info, I guess this is relevant. Below is part of my reply to that request, the inquirer mentioned Soren Egerod's study of the Lungtu dialect of Zhongshan many decades ago, and wondered if anything new was available.

In the book I have out, called Guangdong Min Fangyan Yuyin
Yanjiu (which I translate as Guangdong Min Dialect Linguistic Studies),
written by Lin LunLun and Chen Xiaofeng, ISBN 7-81036-091-4, (pub 1996 by
Shantou University Press). Pages 151 to 187, the fourth chapter of the book
is Zhongshan Min Fangyan Dao (Zhongshan Min dialect Islands) gives a
linguistic description of the Longdu dialect.

It says that (my translation, albeit a rough one)

ZhongShan city is found near the southern Guangdong coast. It is surrounded
by Yue dialect areas, bu three unconnected populations speak Min language
dialects. These are termed Zhongshan Min dialect islands. They include
Longdu dialect (speakers in Shaxi, Dayong towns) , Nanlang dialect (speakers
in Nanlang and Zhangjiabian) and Sanxiang dialect (speakers in Sanxiang
town), these three Min dialect speaking areas has a total population of one
seventh of the Zhongshan area. Of these Longdu speaking areas have speakers
totalling around 100,000 plus and thus forms the major portion of Zhongshan
Min dialect island speakers. Nanlang dialect is close to Longdu dialect.
Sanxiang speakers are found in southern hilly districts of Zhongshan, and
differs to the other two groups, with speakers totalling around 30,000 or
more.

It gives the a phonological description of the Zhongshan Longdu dialect,
with sixteen initials, 87 rimes (a list of the vowels useed), seven tones,
an account of the tone sandi, and then the rest of the chapter deals with
the other two varieties of Zhongshan Min dialects. Finally the chapter does
some comparisons with these three dialects and Xiamen, Putian, Fuzhou and
Shantou dialects for specific characters, and a discussion about the tones.


Cheers
Dyl.

[Dylan Sung]

I should clarity "I have out", as I'm visiting HK again, I make good use of the libraries.

Cheers,
Dyl.

[Niuc]

Hi Sim,

Thanks for the anecdotes

Is it true that Hokkiens have very flat faces? From what I know, not only Hokkiens but virtually most Eastern Asian faces are comparably flat.

I learn a lot from your expertise in phonology. Thanks & keep sharing!

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