Chinese languages

Hi Eng Wai,

There are no more "xi nan guan hua, dong bei guan hua" anymore ! These terms existed long long time ago !
However, people still speak "xi nan guan hua, dong bei guan hua" as they wish ! You cannot 'regulate' 1.3 billion people speak 'standard Mandarin' !
Language needs an environment to nurrish, therefore there will always be accents everywhere in China in general and in the Chinese world because there is no 'standard Mandarin' environment for 1.3 billion people !

So, if you have good ears, willing to learn, read, ask etc, you may be able to move to level 7, that's it !

Again here is the official definition of nowadays Putonghua:
Putonghua is based on Bei3 Fang1 Hua4 but with pronunciation from Beijing on individual characters
Putonghua shi4 yi3 bei3 fang1 hua4 wei2 ji1 chu3, yi3 Bei3 Jing1 yin1 wei2 zhun3 !

Dong bei guan hua, xi nan guan hua etc are still used today to classify the regional mandarins. There is a standard Chinese language defined by the authority called Common Language (pu tong hua), but you can never use this to deny the existence of Mandarin varieties spoken by indigenous Mandarin speaker.

If you say people still speak xi nan guan hua, then why do you say this term do not exist? What is your suggestion for the alternative terminology? And if you admit people speakingxi bei gun hua, do you suggest that transliteration of mandarin in mandarin be guan hua?

If so, could you tell me that eliminating the guan element of Mandarin, what should Mandarin be called in Mandarin?

If not so, could you suggest an alternative to guan hua (definitely not pu tong hua) and give me convincing explanation? Bei fang hua is another term used. But how about people who don't live in bei fang? Does it mean that mandarin originates from north china during Yuan and gradualy displaced old chinese spoken by henanese etc?

If you do not agree with the term bei fang hua, then again please suggest another term, and of course give substantial background explanations.

Thanks

Eng Wai

Eng Wai

Hi Eng Wai,

I don't quite understand why you keep on using the word 'guan hua' ? The words 'guan hua' indicates imperial time and that's the reason the term 'guan hua' not used anymore but people still speak it, they don't call it guan hua any more !
It's like new term 'putonghua' replaced the term 'guo yu' in mainland China after 1949, do you know what I mean ?

>but you can never use this to deny the existence of Mandarin varieties spoken by indigenous Mandarin speaker.
Nobody denies varieties of Mandarin everywhere in China. I already mentioned 1.3 billion Chinese speak with different accents (9 levels are just an example, in fact it can be broken down to lots of sub-levels)

>If not so, could you suggest an alternative to guan hua (definitely not pu tong hua)
Just talk to anyone from China and ask them to see if they still use the term 'guan hua' and find out for yourself !

Well Language Leasrner,

You have totally equated Mandarin n Pu Tong Hua, which is wrong.

And I never equate guan hua n pu tong hua. So I don't know how to answer you. I don't know the proper mandarin word for mandarin. I don't know, that's why I ask, and I doubt the appropriateness of the word guan hua to describe mandarin. Nonetheless I have seen websites using the word guan hua to transliterate mandarin, I have seen some using bei fang hua. The definition of Pu tong hua given by you definitely favour the term bei fang hua.

So

"I don't quite understand why you keep on using the word 'guan hua' ? The words 'guan hua' indicates imperial time and that's the reason the term 'guan hua' not used anymore but people still speak it, they don't call it guan hua any more !
It's like new term 'putonghua' replaced the term 'guo yu' in mainland China after 1949, do you know what I mean ?"

I never insist the usage of guan hua as the mandarin word for mandarin. You shoulf reread all my posts, they are not to long i guess. Ok, if you say guan hua is the historical mandarin word for mandarin, then how do the modern people say mandarin in mandarin? You simply say people do not use the term guan hua anymore, people still need a vocab to describe the same thing, so if guan hua were indeed the historical word fr mandarin, what is the modern word for mandarin?

"Nobody denies varieties of Mandarin everywhere in China. I already mentioned 1.3 billion Chinese speak with different accents (9 levels are just an example, in fact it can be broken down to lots of sub-levels)"

This level system is structured by you to identify the correctness of Pu Tong Hua, not mandarin. THe varieties of Mandarin language, ie dialects, certainly don't fit into this system hich is desgned fof Pu Tong Hua. Unless you equate mandarin to pu tong hua, which is definitely wrong.

"Just talk to anyone from China and ask them to see if they still use the term 'guan hua' and find out for yourself !"

I am talking to you, ou keep denying the term "guan hua" but you never suggest any alternative. Should i give up hope talking to mainland China chinese?

I asked "If not so, could you suggest an alternative to guan hua (definitely not pu tong hua) and give me convincing explanation? Bei fang hua is another term used. But how about people who don't live in bei fang? Does it mean that mandarin originates from north china during Yuan and gradualy displaced old chinese spoken by henanese etc?"

Definitely you don't think so. So where are the alternatives answers suggested by you?

I might suggest another answer on behalf of you. Mandarin in mandarin is Pu Tong Hua. So xi nan guan hua/bei fang hua has become xi nan pu tong hua instead.

Do you agree with me?

Eng Wai

I found these

http://www.secretchina.com/news/article ... 4968b.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_la ... nguages.3F

So mandarin in mandarin should be bei fang hua!

Eng Wai

I am not expert on Mandarin, or linguistics in general, but can share with you what I've learned;. Eng Wai is correct to say there are various types of spoken dialects all classed under the linguistic nomenclature called "Mandarin". Just as Cantonese is one of many Yue dialects, Yue is the family of dialects of which Cantonese is one dialect.

Mandarin dialects vary across the width of China. Most southern Chinese languages and their dialects are found in the south east. If you imagine China is a square which has been formed of four smaller squares, the north west, north east, and south west are the major areas where Mandarin dialects are found. Mandarin in Beijing is different from Mandarin in Sichuan. That is to say, that Sichuan has it's own local variety of dialect, but not the same as Beijing's speech patterns. From James Campbell's glossika site

http://www.glossika.com/en/dict/tones/guanhua.php

Have a look at the list of tones for the dialects of Mandarin that he's gathered, and you'll see that some have still got their Ru tones which is different from Beijing which has lost hers, and the national language, putonghua is based upon the speech patterns of Beijing.

With regards to when Mandarin arises, scholars believe that the precursor of modern beijinghua may have began around the Yuan or Mongol dynasty.

The reason for this is that during the preceeding Song Dynasty, a number of character dictionaries were printed which maintained the use of the Ru tone, but only a hundred and fifty or so years later came the Mongol conquest, and shortly into the Yuan dynasty, the famous ZhongYuan YinYun or Rimes of the Central Plains was published expressly for the use of riming in Yuan period operas. In this work, all the Ru tone characters became distributed in Yin Ping, Yang Ping, Shang and Qu tone rimes, meaning the -p, -t, -k ending characters had been lost. However, it still maintained -m and -n ending rimes. This is known in the literature as Early Mandarin.

So I would guess that because language changes over a few generations, the Song-Yuan boundary is probably the time era in which Mandarin arises.

Mind you, you must look at other factors. The population of the north was severly depopulated during the middle to end of the Song dynasty, with people and their families fleeing southwards. That is why you see more dialects and languages in Southern China retaining the endings of earlier times.


Dyl.

Then Dyl, what do you suggest for the mandarin word of"mandarin (language group)"? The glossika site URL has suggested Guan Hua, instead of Bei fang hua.

Just a point of interest, in Malaysia, everyone use Hua2 yu3 for pu tong hua. So we have "duo1 jiang3 hua2 yu, shao3 shuo1 fang1 yan2" campaign. Hua yu, Chinese language, has been equated to pu tong hua, and regional languages, fang yan, has been equated to dialects.

Another point of interest, i actually don't really like the word Pu tong hua. I feel that it is a very awkward mandarin vocabulary, a straight translation of common language. In mandarin, seldom there a term is consisting of 2 words adjective and 1 word noun. We say mei3 nu3, not piao4 liang4 nu3 etc. And I cant recall any pu tong + noun example. Normally 2 words adjective is coined with 2 words nouns. Zhoung hua ming zu, not zhong hua zu. Hua zu, not zhong hua zu. Zhong guo ren, ma lai xi ya ren, xiang gang ren etc are exceptions because zhong guo, ma la xi ya are countries/region names.

Eng Wai

[%sig%]

I think Michael A. Fuller's (An Introduction to Literary Chinese) use of "Guanhua" is good enough, and distinguishes

Bei Guanhua, XiBei Guanhua, XiNan GuanHua and Nan Guanhua

as the various groupings of Mandarin dialects. Whether or not the populous would use these terms is another thing. Just as in English the linguistic term for Chinese languages is 'Sinitic', Guanhua can be taken as the Chinese linguistics term.

'Putonghua' is a term for a specific form of Mandarin. It is the 'national language' and because it is used throughout China in schools, it is the 'common language' of the people, or those who have recieved an education in Chinese.

I can't help you about your own perceptions of 'Mandarin' and its language. It's one of those things, you can take it or leave it.

Dyl.

Ok, nice explanations. Thanks

Eng Wai

《普通话溯源》

周朝时，“官方语言”以周天子所在地为准，为“周音”，称雅言。各诸侯国交往的需要也促进了雅言的形成发展。

秦始皇统一六国，便以“秦音”为标准。

元朝建都北京后，“北京官话”开始形成。
明朝、清朝，“北京官话”在全国应用渐广，但已失“秦音”之古韵。

1728年清雍正皇帝设立“正音书馆”，在全国推行“北京官话”。读书人听不懂“官话”不会说“官话”不得参加科举考试。
清朝末年，“切音字运动”把汉语分成三类，其中之一就是“普通话(官话)”，意为“各省通行之话”。曰：“夫吾之所以望同胞者，能自立于生存竞争之世界耳。顾文字不易，教育总不能普及；国语(官话)不一，团结总不能坚固。”

1913年“读音统一会”在北京“以最多数为会中审定之读音”的方法，逐字审定了六千五百多字之读音，并把议定的字音称为“国音(官话语音)”。
1918年，胡适提出“国语(官话)的文学，文学的国语(官话)”。
1918年教育部公布了“注音字母”(官话注音字母)，开始了表音的字母化。
1919年掀起以“官话白话文运动”为先锋的“五四运动”，被称为中国的文艺复兴。“官话白话文”由此取代“文言文”成为文学的正宗、小学教科书的正式文体。
1921年，赵元任的“国语留声机片”，阴阳上去也依“北京”，而入声则依照“南京”，后来黎锦熙更进一步提倡废止“国音(官话语音)”中的入声。这些演变就组成了所谓“国音(官话语音)京调”运动。 “国音(官话语音)京调”再进一步，便是减少“国音(官话语音)”中一些不合“京音”的读音，于是“国音(官话语音)京调”就变成“京音京调”。
1929年开始，瞿秋白、吴玉章、林伯渠、萧三等红色文人相继研究、草拟和出版《中国拉丁化字母方案》来拼写中国话，这也就是所谓“中国拉丁化新文字”。他们反对胡适推动的“统一国语(官话)运动”，认为不能以某一地方的口音作为全国标准音。但是后来各地的“新文字”中，传播较广的还是“北方话”拉丁化新文字，简称“北拉”。
1932年，“国语统一筹备委员会”编《国音(官话语音)常用词汇》，由当时的教育部公布，作为读音标准。
1937年，中国第一部现代“汉语(官话)辞典”，由黎锦熙、钱玄同主编，中国大辞典编纂处编的《国语(官话)辞典》出版。

1949年，新中国成立。为了对少数民族的语言文字表示尊重，避免“国语(官话)”这个名称可能引起的误解，1955年10月相继召开的 “全国文字改革会议”和“现代汉语(官话)规范问题学术会议”决定将规范的“现代汉语(官话)”定名为“普通话(官话)”，并确定了“普通话(官话)”的定义和标准。其中“普通”二字的涵义是“普遍”和“共通”。“普通话(官话)”是“以“北京语音”为标准音，以“北方话”为基础方言，以典范的“现代官话白话文”著作为语法规范的普通话(官话)”。海外的说法是“普通话(官话)是被中华人民共和国政府采纳的一种作为“汉语(官话)”的官方发音。它是以“北京话”为标准音，以“北方话”为基础方言，以典范的“现代官话白话文”著作为语法规范的中华人民共和国“汉语(官话)”标准。”
这样的“普通话(官话)”，配上1957-1958年的“汉语(官话)拼音方案”，实际上是 “国语(官话)”和“北拉”的合流。它确认了“国语(官话)”的语音标准，舍弃了“北拉”的模糊语音标准；基本上继承了“北拉”的“拉丁字母拼写法”和“注音符号标调法”，舍弃了“国语(官话)罗马字”的“字母标调法”。
1951年毛泽东说：“文字必须改革，要走世界文字共同的拼音方向。......必须简化汉字。”
1956年1月首批简体字被创造出来,1959年国务院正式公布了第1批2238个简体字。
1958年正式公布“汉语(官话)拼音方案”。周恩来总理在《当前文字改革的任务》中指出：“要把六亿汉族人民的方言逐渐统一起来，这是一项艰巨的任务，必须作长期不懈的努力，才能实现。究竟多长？就要看交通、经济和文化的发展和我们的工作，但是只要我们不断认真地工作，这个任务是一定可以实现的。”
1957年－－1962年“普通话(官话)审音委员会”发表《普通话(官话)异读词审音表（初稿）》。
1962年“普通话(官话)审音委员会”正式颁布《普通话(官话)异读词三次审音总表初稿（第三编）》。
1977年国务院又公布了853个简体字,但这853个新字给语文和社会生活造成混乱,例如小饭馆把“鸡蛋”写成“几旦”，因而国务院1986年宣布取消。
1982年“汉语(官话)拼音方案”成为国际标准（ISO 7098）。
1982年中华人民共和国宪法明确规定：“国家推广全国通用的普通话(官话)”。

作者: 房网管