Hi Stifven
Thanks a lot for sharing about Chinese schools in the Philippines. It's really interesting. I didn't know that Chinese schools there are "so Chinese". I admire the opportunity to have Hokkien & Mandarin as languages of instruction in Philippines. However, based on your story, I agree that it's exhausting and inefficient to learn the same lesson twice in different languages. Hopefully Filipino Chinese will find good ways to solve this problem, lest the youngsters lose their interest in learning Hokkien/Mandarin.
Don't Chinese in Philippines live in Chinatown or Chinese neighbourhood? Why the youngsters ends up talking in English & Tagalog to each other? It's ironic that Filipino Chinese who are free to learn Chinese prefer to speak in English/Tagalog to each other. In our hometown, although our generation is deprived of Chinese education, we prefer to speak Hokkien to each other (with some Indonesian words, of course).
My Filipino Chinese friend can speak Hokkien and a bit Mandarin. Btw, his 1st [獅 'sai1' (lion), 豬 'ti1' (pig)] & 7th [象 'chiu*7' (elephant), 箸 'ti7' (chopstick)] tones are not merged. They sound just like mine. Do you pronounce 豬 'ti1' (pig) and 箸 'ti7' (chopstick) alike?
[%sig%]
Philippine Hokkien
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stifven nks
Re: Philippine Hokkien
Hi Niuc,
We say 獅 'sai' (lion), 豬 'ti' (pig), and 象 'chiu*' (elephant) like the midtone of Cantonese. Our 箸 'ti' (chopstick) uses 4th tone Mandarin. If 象 'chiu*' uses the same 4th tone Mandarin...it would mean 唱 (to sing).
>> Don't Chinese in Philippines live in Chinatown or Chinese neighbourhood?
Not actually. Although it is in Chinatown where you can see Chinese billboards, Chinese pharmacies, and see Chinese everywhere you turn...There are more Chinese living outside Chinatown. Chinatown is almost 1hr away by car from where I live. One could expect that youngsters who grew up in Chinatown and studied in one of its "Chinese" schools speak Hokkien well and know Chinese tradition, but they would speak with each other in Tagalog/English...with only splashes of Hokkien.
Again, students from different Chinese schools have different degrees of Chineseness even just within Manila itself. A Chinese from San Juan district would speak more English, whereas a Chinese from Valenzuela would speak more Tagalog.
Its sad that we prefer to speak Tagalog/English. There are no Chinese movies to watch, no Chinese actors to idolize, no Chinese music....there's no inspiration at all. I even remember when I was young, Chinese are being fooled in Philippine cinemas. So maybe Chinese younsters felt inferior and didnt want to be fooled, so they shunned from Chinese. But it's better now. There's an increasing interest in Chinese culture already..
Before, Chinese changed their surnames to Filipino/Spanish surnames. So I got Chinese friends that are Sobremonte, Monteverde, Sandoval, etc. I have even seen hybrid surnames like Torresyap, LlanosDee, Limcuando.
Im really happy that Indonesians speak Hokkien with each other even if they were deprived of Chinese education. Can people watch Chinese shows in Indonesia? How much Chinese lessons are taught there?
Thanx!
We say 獅 'sai' (lion), 豬 'ti' (pig), and 象 'chiu*' (elephant) like the midtone of Cantonese. Our 箸 'ti' (chopstick) uses 4th tone Mandarin. If 象 'chiu*' uses the same 4th tone Mandarin...it would mean 唱 (to sing).
>> Don't Chinese in Philippines live in Chinatown or Chinese neighbourhood?
Not actually. Although it is in Chinatown where you can see Chinese billboards, Chinese pharmacies, and see Chinese everywhere you turn...There are more Chinese living outside Chinatown. Chinatown is almost 1hr away by car from where I live. One could expect that youngsters who grew up in Chinatown and studied in one of its "Chinese" schools speak Hokkien well and know Chinese tradition, but they would speak with each other in Tagalog/English...with only splashes of Hokkien.
Again, students from different Chinese schools have different degrees of Chineseness even just within Manila itself. A Chinese from San Juan district would speak more English, whereas a Chinese from Valenzuela would speak more Tagalog.
Its sad that we prefer to speak Tagalog/English. There are no Chinese movies to watch, no Chinese actors to idolize, no Chinese music....there's no inspiration at all. I even remember when I was young, Chinese are being fooled in Philippine cinemas. So maybe Chinese younsters felt inferior and didnt want to be fooled, so they shunned from Chinese. But it's better now. There's an increasing interest in Chinese culture already..
Before, Chinese changed their surnames to Filipino/Spanish surnames. So I got Chinese friends that are Sobremonte, Monteverde, Sandoval, etc. I have even seen hybrid surnames like Torresyap, LlanosDee, Limcuando.
Im really happy that Indonesians speak Hokkien with each other even if they were deprived of Chinese education. Can people watch Chinese shows in Indonesia? How much Chinese lessons are taught there?
Thanx!
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Niuc
Re: Philippine Hokkien
Hi Stifven
My knowledge about Cantonese is very limited, therefore I couldn't figure out how your first tone sounds like. Nonetheless you can try to listen to tones in Taiwanese Hokkien http://edu.ocac.gov.tw/lang/taiwanese/l1_ho.htm and compare them with yours. Tones in our dialect are very similar to Taiwanese - almost identical - with slight difference for 2nd (=6th) tone. Our 2nd tone sounds like 4th but have different sandhi.
I find this Taiwanese language site http://edu.ocac.gov.tw/lang/taiwanese/index.htm very helpful & interesting. I posted its previous link http://edu.ocac.gov.tw/language/taiwanese/ (not working now) in this forum before.
唱 'chiu*3' (to sing) is 3rd tone while 象 'chiu*7' (elephant) is 7th tone. They sounds differently in our dialect. I have checked with my Filipino Chinese Friend and found out that his 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th and 8th tones are the same as ours. His 2nd (=6th) and 4th tones are slightly different.
I was talking about people in our hometown - a small town in eastern coast of Sumatra Island - when I said that we preferred to communicate in Hokkien. I was not referring to all Chinese in Indonesia. I am grateful that Hokkien is still fervently alive there. Unfortunately most Indonesian Chinese, especially the youngsters, don't know Chinese (Mandarin or others). Only certain area in provinces such as Northern Sumatra, Riau (including eastern part of Sumatra), Western Kalimantan, Bangka Belitung, have Chinese communities that speak Hokkien or Teochew or Hakka. Although most Chinese in big cities usually live next to each others, most of them can't speak Chinese. Many have no interest in Chinese culture. In this sense, our hometown (including the christians) are among the most chinese in Indonesia.
During "New Order"(1966-1998) regime, Chinese were mocked in local TV shows. Many were "forced" to change their names to sound more local. Contrarily Indonesian Chinese - including the youngsters - didn't feel inferior but "superior". They might not have any interest in Chinese culture but they were proud of being Chinese. Of course it's not good to feel either superior or inferior. Recently the situation has been improving as Chinese are given more freedom. Chinese languages were banned from schools and public media then, yet there were a lot of Chinese movies (mostly from Hongkong) screened in cinemas. They were usually dubbed into Mandarin with Indonesian subtitle. Nowadays some TV stations broadcast news and movies in Mandarin. Those who understand Chinese prefer to watch Chinese TV of Hongkong, China and Taiwan. Interest in Chinese culture is growing, even among native Indonesian. Yet it'll take quite long time for Indonesian Chinese to be able to enjoy harmonious life, as even native Indonesian also couldn't live harmoniously among themselves, given the "chaotic" nature of Indonesian politics & economy.
[%sig%]
My knowledge about Cantonese is very limited, therefore I couldn't figure out how your first tone sounds like. Nonetheless you can try to listen to tones in Taiwanese Hokkien http://edu.ocac.gov.tw/lang/taiwanese/l1_ho.htm and compare them with yours. Tones in our dialect are very similar to Taiwanese - almost identical - with slight difference for 2nd (=6th) tone. Our 2nd tone sounds like 4th but have different sandhi.
I find this Taiwanese language site http://edu.ocac.gov.tw/lang/taiwanese/index.htm very helpful & interesting. I posted its previous link http://edu.ocac.gov.tw/language/taiwanese/ (not working now) in this forum before.
唱 'chiu*3' (to sing) is 3rd tone while 象 'chiu*7' (elephant) is 7th tone. They sounds differently in our dialect. I have checked with my Filipino Chinese Friend and found out that his 1st, 3rd, 5th, 7th and 8th tones are the same as ours. His 2nd (=6th) and 4th tones are slightly different.
I was talking about people in our hometown - a small town in eastern coast of Sumatra Island - when I said that we preferred to communicate in Hokkien. I was not referring to all Chinese in Indonesia. I am grateful that Hokkien is still fervently alive there. Unfortunately most Indonesian Chinese, especially the youngsters, don't know Chinese (Mandarin or others). Only certain area in provinces such as Northern Sumatra, Riau (including eastern part of Sumatra), Western Kalimantan, Bangka Belitung, have Chinese communities that speak Hokkien or Teochew or Hakka. Although most Chinese in big cities usually live next to each others, most of them can't speak Chinese. Many have no interest in Chinese culture. In this sense, our hometown (including the christians) are among the most chinese in Indonesia.
During "New Order"(1966-1998) regime, Chinese were mocked in local TV shows. Many were "forced" to change their names to sound more local. Contrarily Indonesian Chinese - including the youngsters - didn't feel inferior but "superior". They might not have any interest in Chinese culture but they were proud of being Chinese. Of course it's not good to feel either superior or inferior. Recently the situation has been improving as Chinese are given more freedom. Chinese languages were banned from schools and public media then, yet there were a lot of Chinese movies (mostly from Hongkong) screened in cinemas. They were usually dubbed into Mandarin with Indonesian subtitle. Nowadays some TV stations broadcast news and movies in Mandarin. Those who understand Chinese prefer to watch Chinese TV of Hongkong, China and Taiwan. Interest in Chinese culture is growing, even among native Indonesian. Yet it'll take quite long time for Indonesian Chinese to be able to enjoy harmonious life, as even native Indonesian also couldn't live harmoniously among themselves, given the "chaotic" nature of Indonesian politics & economy.
[%sig%]
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stifven nks
Re: Philippine Hokkien
Hi Niuc,
Very nice to hear that that those towns in Indonesia chose to speak Chinese. I have met an Indonesian couple when I was in Shanghai.....and I was surprised to hear that speak Hokkien well.....contradicting to my notion before that Indonesian Chinese cant speak Chinese coz they were deprived of it.
The Taiwanese link you posted sounded very much like my 3-kim from Xiamen. But Philippine Hokkien really sounds different from Taiyu. Maybe your Filipino Chinese friend wasn't born here or he maybe a 2nd generation Taiwanese immigrant.
Taiyu: 花草 (hue1 chau2)
Filipino Hokkien: (hue2 chau1) ... Chau has a higher tone.
Very nice to hear that that those towns in Indonesia chose to speak Chinese. I have met an Indonesian couple when I was in Shanghai.....and I was surprised to hear that speak Hokkien well.....contradicting to my notion before that Indonesian Chinese cant speak Chinese coz they were deprived of it.
The Taiwanese link you posted sounded very much like my 3-kim from Xiamen. But Philippine Hokkien really sounds different from Taiyu. Maybe your Filipino Chinese friend wasn't born here or he maybe a 2nd generation Taiwanese immigrant.
Taiyu: 花草 (hue1 chau2)
Filipino Hokkien: (hue2 chau1) ... Chau has a higher tone.
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Niuc
Re: Philippine Hokkien
Hi Stifven
From our limited conversation in Hokkien, I could understand my friend's Filipino Hokkien although the accent was different. He also said that his Hokkien (Mindanao) was the same with those in Manila. If you & your relatives from E-mng can understand each other, it means the accent difference is not really a problem.
It's interesting that you say 'hue' for flower, same as ours (regardless the tone). Red flower is 'ang5 hua1' for my friend, sounds like Ciangciu (& Penang?). He mentioned that his ancestral village was around Cinkang, same as yours. Flower in Cinkang dialect should be 'hue1', 'hua1' (literary pronunciation) is only for certain context. It's also the case for most Hokkien dialects.
[%sig%]
From our limited conversation in Hokkien, I could understand my friend's Filipino Hokkien although the accent was different. He also said that his Hokkien (Mindanao) was the same with those in Manila. If you & your relatives from E-mng can understand each other, it means the accent difference is not really a problem.
It's interesting that you say 'hue' for flower, same as ours (regardless the tone). Red flower is 'ang5 hua1' for my friend, sounds like Ciangciu (& Penang?). He mentioned that his ancestral village was around Cinkang, same as yours. Flower in Cinkang dialect should be 'hue1', 'hua1' (literary pronunciation) is only for certain context. It's also the case for most Hokkien dialects.
[%sig%]
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Sim
Re: Philippine Hokkien
Hi Niuc,
>> Red flower is 'ang5 hua1' for my friend, sounds like Ciangciu (& Penang?).
Your guess was correct, Penang Hokkien has "hua1" for flower.
I listed all the -ua- words I know in Penang Hokkien, and as far as I can see (perhaps someone can check this), almost all of them correspond to Amoy "-ua-".
The only two exceptions are "hua1" (flower) and "ua5" (to draw a drawing, as in "ue3 tO5"), which I believe are "hue1" and "ue5" respectively in Amoy Hokkien.
If Penang Hokkien vowels were changed in a completely regular way, then I suppose Penang Hokkien "should" pronounce these two words "he1" and "e5", as Amoy "-ue-" regularly corresponds to Penang Hokkien "-e-", as in (Amoy form first, Penang form second): "bue2"/"be2" (to buy), "bue7/be7" (to sell), "pueh(2?/4?)"/"pe4" (eight), "sue3"/"se3" (small), "ue5"/"e5" (shoe), etc.
Anyway, below is the Penang Hokkien ua-list, perhaps someone could check that the others are all pronounced -ua- in Amoy Hokkien. [ Note: in the translations, alternative meanings of the same word are separated by a slash while totally different words with the same pronunciation are separated by a semicolon. ]
"bua5" to rub (e.g. sharpen the blade of a knife)
"buah4" to smear / to apply cream or fluid
"chua*2" arrogant
"chua3" to lead
"chuah4" to get a fright; to fear
"chuan2" tired
"cua2" paper
"cua3" stripe; row
"cua5" snake
"cuan3" to twist
"gua2" I / me
"gua7" external
"hua1" flower
"huah4" shout / yell
"huan1" native
"huat4" to sprout
"juah8" hot (temperature)
"khua*3" to look at
"khuah4" broad
"khuan2" type / sort
"kua*1" judge; liver
"kua*2" to chase away
"kua*3" sweat
"kua*5" cold
"kua1" melon
"kua3" cover / lid
"kuah4" to cut
"kuan2" to govern; to take heed of
"kuan5" tall / high
"lua3" to blame
"luah8" hot (chillie)
"luan3" noisy
"mua1" sarong
"mua2" overflowing
"nua7" saliva
"phua3" to break; broken
"pua*1" to move; to perform
"pua*3" half
"pua*5" plate
"puah8" to fall; to gamble
"puat8" 10-cent piece
"sua*1" mountain / hill
"sua*2" loose
"sua*3" thread; to dissolve
"sua1" sand
"sua2" shift
"suah4" finished / completed
"thua1" to drag
"thuah4" drawer
"tua*1" ticket
"tua7" big / large; belt; to live
"ua*2" bowl
"ua*3" late
"ua2" close to / not far
"ua3" language
"ua5" to draw
"uah8" alive
"uan1" to turn
"uan5" ball / lump
[%sig%]
>> Red flower is 'ang5 hua1' for my friend, sounds like Ciangciu (& Penang?).
Your guess was correct, Penang Hokkien has "hua1" for flower.
I listed all the -ua- words I know in Penang Hokkien, and as far as I can see (perhaps someone can check this), almost all of them correspond to Amoy "-ua-".
The only two exceptions are "hua1" (flower) and "ua5" (to draw a drawing, as in "ue3 tO5"), which I believe are "hue1" and "ue5" respectively in Amoy Hokkien.
If Penang Hokkien vowels were changed in a completely regular way, then I suppose Penang Hokkien "should" pronounce these two words "he1" and "e5", as Amoy "-ue-" regularly corresponds to Penang Hokkien "-e-", as in (Amoy form first, Penang form second): "bue2"/"be2" (to buy), "bue7/be7" (to sell), "pueh(2?/4?)"/"pe4" (eight), "sue3"/"se3" (small), "ue5"/"e5" (shoe), etc.
Anyway, below is the Penang Hokkien ua-list, perhaps someone could check that the others are all pronounced -ua- in Amoy Hokkien. [ Note: in the translations, alternative meanings of the same word are separated by a slash while totally different words with the same pronunciation are separated by a semicolon. ]
"bua5" to rub (e.g. sharpen the blade of a knife)
"buah4" to smear / to apply cream or fluid
"chua*2" arrogant
"chua3" to lead
"chuah4" to get a fright; to fear
"chuan2" tired
"cua2" paper
"cua3" stripe; row
"cua5" snake
"cuan3" to twist
"gua2" I / me
"gua7" external
"hua1" flower
"huah4" shout / yell
"huan1" native
"huat4" to sprout
"juah8" hot (temperature)
"khua*3" to look at
"khuah4" broad
"khuan2" type / sort
"kua*1" judge; liver
"kua*2" to chase away
"kua*3" sweat
"kua*5" cold
"kua1" melon
"kua3" cover / lid
"kuah4" to cut
"kuan2" to govern; to take heed of
"kuan5" tall / high
"lua3" to blame
"luah8" hot (chillie)
"luan3" noisy
"mua1" sarong
"mua2" overflowing
"nua7" saliva
"phua3" to break; broken
"pua*1" to move; to perform
"pua*3" half
"pua*5" plate
"puah8" to fall; to gamble
"puat8" 10-cent piece
"sua*1" mountain / hill
"sua*2" loose
"sua*3" thread; to dissolve
"sua1" sand
"sua2" shift
"suah4" finished / completed
"thua1" to drag
"thuah4" drawer
"tua*1" ticket
"tua7" big / large; belt; to live
"ua*2" bowl
"ua*3" late
"ua2" close to / not far
"ua3" language
"ua5" to draw
"uah8" alive
"uan1" to turn
"uan5" ball / lump
[%sig%]
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Yisheng
Re: Philippine Hokkien
Hi Sim,
can you describe how you pronounce the 3rd and 7th tones for the words in your list? I really don't see any difference in mine.
Anyway, just to add, words ending in ue for Penang Hokkien more often than not end in e for the Amoy variety. As in "not yet", au1 bue7 and au1 be7. There are others but I cannot recall them now.
Yisheng
can you describe how you pronounce the 3rd and 7th tones for the words in your list? I really don't see any difference in mine.
Anyway, just to add, words ending in ue for Penang Hokkien more often than not end in e for the Amoy variety. As in "not yet", au1 bue7 and au1 be7. There are others but I cannot recall them now.
Yisheng
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Sim
Re: Philippine Hokkien
Hi Yisheng,
Great to hear from you, I'm delighted you're still following the Forum!
.
>> can you describe how you pronounce the 3rd and 7th tones for the
>> words in your list? I really don't see any difference in mine.
This is the old discussion about tone-contour collapse, scattered around various postings (which I haven't been able to find again). As with you, in my form of Penang Hokkien (and, I think, this is more or less confirmed by Andrew), 3rd and 7th tone sound to all intents and purposes identical.
Personally, I pronounce them (both) 21, if you use the Chao-convention for indicating tones, where 5 is the highest, and 1 is the lowest in the pitch range of any individual speaker. [ For example, in this system, Standard Mandarin 3rd tone (in isolation) is supposed to be 314, I believe. ]
My linguistically-inclined friend here in Amsterdam has a program on his PC which (if you record some speech on the PC using a microphone) can analyse speech into tones, and show the tone-contours graphically. [ It seems like quite a complicated program - I've never taken the trouble to learn how to use it. I just act as a guinea-pig for him in his linguistic experiments into Mandarin and Hokkien. ] From his program, it would appear that my Hokkien tones are:
H1 = 44 (i.e. approx M1)
H2 = 51 (i.e. approx M4)
H3 = 21 (i.e. approx M3, but see Note #1)
H4 = 2. (i.e. approx M3, cut short because of the final stop)
H5 = 14 (i.e. approx M2)
H7 = 21 (i.e. approx M3, but see Note #1)
H8 = 4. (i.e. approx M1, cut short because of the final stop)
Anyway, the bottom-line is that my H3 and H7 are identical in pronunciation (i.e. tone-contour). I didn't even know that these were supposed to be two different tones. However, the way to tell, is that (in the theoretical linguistic analysis of Hokkien) H3 has a sandhi tone H2, whereas H7 has a sandhi tone H3. (But see also Note #2.)
This means that if I have a word "X" in my mind, and I don't know whether it's supposed to be H3 or H7, then I try to find a compound where "X" occurs before another word. If "X" retains the same tone - i.e. has "shifted" from H7 to H3! - then I know it's H7; if it changes tone - i.e. has shifted from H3 to H2 - then I know it's H3.
[ Note #2: Also, Andrew has confirmed that in Penang Hokkien, the sandhi form of H3 sounds more like H1 than H2, but the principle is the same: H3 has a sandhi-tone which sounds different from itself, whereas H7 (having sandhi-tone H3), sounds very much like itself. ]
So, for example, in my Penang Hokkien: "tua3?/7?" (big) and "se3?/7?" (small) sound like they have the same tone to me, so I don't know whether to write H3 or H7. However, in the compound "tua3/7-lang5" (big person) the "tua" doesn't sound as if it's changed tone, so I know it's H7, whereas "se1-lang5" has changed tone, so I know it's an H3.
Similarly in Amoy Hokkien: "tua3?/7?" and "sue3?/7?", but "tua3/7-lang5" and "sue2-lang5", so one can see that it's "tua7" and "sue3".
Hope this explanation makes sense!
Sim.
P.S. There is more discussion about the tones themselves and their sandhi forms in the "sandhi"-thread: http://www.chineselanguage.org/forum/re ... 423&t=1423
[%sig%]
Great to hear from you, I'm delighted you're still following the Forum!
.>> can you describe how you pronounce the 3rd and 7th tones for the
>> words in your list? I really don't see any difference in mine.
This is the old discussion about tone-contour collapse, scattered around various postings (which I haven't been able to find again). As with you, in my form of Penang Hokkien (and, I think, this is more or less confirmed by Andrew), 3rd and 7th tone sound to all intents and purposes identical.
Personally, I pronounce them (both) 21, if you use the Chao-convention for indicating tones, where 5 is the highest, and 1 is the lowest in the pitch range of any individual speaker. [ For example, in this system, Standard Mandarin 3rd tone (in isolation) is supposed to be 314, I believe. ]
My linguistically-inclined friend here in Amsterdam has a program on his PC which (if you record some speech on the PC using a microphone) can analyse speech into tones, and show the tone-contours graphically. [ It seems like quite a complicated program - I've never taken the trouble to learn how to use it. I just act as a guinea-pig for him in his linguistic experiments into Mandarin and Hokkien. ] From his program, it would appear that my Hokkien tones are:
H1 = 44 (i.e. approx M1)
H2 = 51 (i.e. approx M4)
H3 = 21 (i.e. approx M3, but see Note #1)
H4 = 2. (i.e. approx M3, cut short because of the final stop)
H5 = 14 (i.e. approx M2)
H7 = 21 (i.e. approx M3, but see Note #1)
H8 = 4. (i.e. approx M1, cut short because of the final stop)
Anyway, the bottom-line is that my H3 and H7 are identical in pronunciation (i.e. tone-contour). I didn't even know that these were supposed to be two different tones. However, the way to tell, is that (in the theoretical linguistic analysis of Hokkien) H3 has a sandhi tone H2, whereas H7 has a sandhi tone H3. (But see also Note #2.)
This means that if I have a word "X" in my mind, and I don't know whether it's supposed to be H3 or H7, then I try to find a compound where "X" occurs before another word. If "X" retains the same tone - i.e. has "shifted" from H7 to H3! - then I know it's H7; if it changes tone - i.e. has shifted from H3 to H2 - then I know it's H3.
[ Note #2: Also, Andrew has confirmed that in Penang Hokkien, the sandhi form of H3 sounds more like H1 than H2, but the principle is the same: H3 has a sandhi-tone which sounds different from itself, whereas H7 (having sandhi-tone H3), sounds very much like itself. ]
So, for example, in my Penang Hokkien: "tua3?/7?" (big) and "se3?/7?" (small) sound like they have the same tone to me, so I don't know whether to write H3 or H7. However, in the compound "tua3/7-lang5" (big person) the "tua" doesn't sound as if it's changed tone, so I know it's H7, whereas "se1-lang5" has changed tone, so I know it's an H3.
Similarly in Amoy Hokkien: "tua3?/7?" and "sue3?/7?", but "tua3/7-lang5" and "sue2-lang5", so one can see that it's "tua7" and "sue3".
Hope this explanation makes sense!
Sim.
P.S. There is more discussion about the tones themselves and their sandhi forms in the "sandhi"-thread: http://www.chineselanguage.org/forum/re ... 423&t=1423
[%sig%]
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Sim
Re: Philippine Hokkien
Blast, somehow, my Note #1 seems to have disappeared from the previous posting.
This is a re-post, with Note #1 re-inserted.
Hi Yisheng,
Great to hear from you, I'm delighted you're still following the Forum!.
>> can you describe how you pronounce the 3rd and 7th tones for the
>> words in your list? I really don't see any difference in mine.
This is the old discussion about tone-contour collapse, scattered around various postings (which I haven't been able to find again). As with you, in my form of Penang Hokkien (and, I think, this is more or less confirmed by Andrew), 3rd and 7th tone sound to all intents and purposes identical.
Personally, I pronounce them (both) 21, if you use the Chao-convention for indicating tones, where 5 is the highest, and 1 is the lowest in the pitch range of any individual speaker. [ For example, in this system, Standard Mandarin 3rd tone (in isolation) is supposed to be 314, I believe. ]
My linguistically-inclined friend here in Amsterdam has a program on his PC which (if you record some speech on the PC using a microphone) can analyse speech into tones, and show the tone-contours graphically. [ It seems like quite a complicated program - I've never taken the trouble to learn how to use it. I just act as a guinea-pig for him in his linguistic experiments into Mandarin and Hokkien. ] From his program, it would appear that my Hokkien tones are:
H1 = 44 (i.e. approx M1)
H2 = 51 (i.e. approx M4)
H3 = 21 (i.e. approx M3, but see Note #1)
H4 = 2. (i.e. approx M3, cut short because of the final stop)
H5 = 14 (i.e. approx M2)
H7 = 21 (i.e. approx M3, but see Note #1)
H8 = 4. (i.e. approx M1, cut short because of the final stop)
[ Note #1: When I try to listen to myself speaking, my H3 and H7 _sound_ to me like 22, rather than 21, but the speech analysis program shows graphically that there is a bit of a drop in the tone. ]
Anyway, the bottom-line is that my H3 and H7 are identical in pronunciation (i.e. tone-contour). I didn't even know that these were supposed to be two different tones. However, the way to tell, is that (in the theoretical linguistic analysis of Hokkien) H3 has a sandhi tone H2, whereas H7 has a sandhi tone H3. (But see also Note #2.)
This means that if I have a word "X" in my mind, and I don't know whether it's supposed to be H3 or H7, then I try to find a compound where "X" occurs before another word. If "X" retains the same tone - i.e. has "shifted" from H7 to H3! - then I know it's H7; if it changes tone - i.e. has shifted from H3 to H2 - then I know it's H3.
[ Note #2: Also, Andrew has confirmed that in Penang Hokkien, the sandhi form of H3 sounds more like H1 than H2, but the principle is the same: H3 has a sandhi-tone which sounds different from itself, whereas H7 (having sandhi-tone H3), sounds very much like itself. ]
So, for example, in my Penang Hokkien: "tua3?/7?" (big) and "se3?/7?" (small) sound like they have the same tone to me, so I don't know whether to write H3 or H7. However, in the compound "tua3/7-lang5" (big person) the "tua" doesn't sound as if it's changed tone, so I know it's H7, whereas "se1-lang5" has changed tone, so I know it's an H3.
Similarly in Amoy Hokkien: "tua3?/7?" and "sue3?/7?", but "tua3/7-lang5" and "sue2-lang5", so one can see that it's "tua7" and "sue3".
Hope this explanation makes sense!
Sim.
P.S. There is more discussion about the tones themselves and their sandhi forms in the "sandhi"-thread: http://www.chineselanguage.org/forum/re ... 423&t=1423
[%sig%]
This is a re-post, with Note #1 re-inserted.
Hi Yisheng,
Great to hear from you, I'm delighted you're still following the Forum!
.>> can you describe how you pronounce the 3rd and 7th tones for the
>> words in your list? I really don't see any difference in mine.
This is the old discussion about tone-contour collapse, scattered around various postings (which I haven't been able to find again). As with you, in my form of Penang Hokkien (and, I think, this is more or less confirmed by Andrew), 3rd and 7th tone sound to all intents and purposes identical.
Personally, I pronounce them (both) 21, if you use the Chao-convention for indicating tones, where 5 is the highest, and 1 is the lowest in the pitch range of any individual speaker. [ For example, in this system, Standard Mandarin 3rd tone (in isolation) is supposed to be 314, I believe. ]
My linguistically-inclined friend here in Amsterdam has a program on his PC which (if you record some speech on the PC using a microphone) can analyse speech into tones, and show the tone-contours graphically. [ It seems like quite a complicated program - I've never taken the trouble to learn how to use it. I just act as a guinea-pig for him in his linguistic experiments into Mandarin and Hokkien. ] From his program, it would appear that my Hokkien tones are:
H1 = 44 (i.e. approx M1)
H2 = 51 (i.e. approx M4)
H3 = 21 (i.e. approx M3, but see Note #1)
H4 = 2. (i.e. approx M3, cut short because of the final stop)
H5 = 14 (i.e. approx M2)
H7 = 21 (i.e. approx M3, but see Note #1)
H8 = 4. (i.e. approx M1, cut short because of the final stop)
[ Note #1: When I try to listen to myself speaking, my H3 and H7 _sound_ to me like 22, rather than 21, but the speech analysis program shows graphically that there is a bit of a drop in the tone. ]
Anyway, the bottom-line is that my H3 and H7 are identical in pronunciation (i.e. tone-contour). I didn't even know that these were supposed to be two different tones. However, the way to tell, is that (in the theoretical linguistic analysis of Hokkien) H3 has a sandhi tone H2, whereas H7 has a sandhi tone H3. (But see also Note #2.)
This means that if I have a word "X" in my mind, and I don't know whether it's supposed to be H3 or H7, then I try to find a compound where "X" occurs before another word. If "X" retains the same tone - i.e. has "shifted" from H7 to H3! - then I know it's H7; if it changes tone - i.e. has shifted from H3 to H2 - then I know it's H3.
[ Note #2: Also, Andrew has confirmed that in Penang Hokkien, the sandhi form of H3 sounds more like H1 than H2, but the principle is the same: H3 has a sandhi-tone which sounds different from itself, whereas H7 (having sandhi-tone H3), sounds very much like itself. ]
So, for example, in my Penang Hokkien: "tua3?/7?" (big) and "se3?/7?" (small) sound like they have the same tone to me, so I don't know whether to write H3 or H7. However, in the compound "tua3/7-lang5" (big person) the "tua" doesn't sound as if it's changed tone, so I know it's H7, whereas "se1-lang5" has changed tone, so I know it's an H3.
Similarly in Amoy Hokkien: "tua3?/7?" and "sue3?/7?", but "tua3/7-lang5" and "sue2-lang5", so one can see that it's "tua7" and "sue3".
Hope this explanation makes sense!
Sim.
P.S. There is more discussion about the tones themselves and their sandhi forms in the "sandhi"-thread: http://www.chineselanguage.org/forum/re ... 423&t=1423
[%sig%]
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Yisheng
Re: Philippine Hokkien
Hi Sim,
thanks for your info! Quite an eye opener for me as I've never really delved into the tone change part in Hokkien. Does Penang Hokkien follow the same tonal change ruling as Amoy and the other sub-dialects too?
By the way, if you have the chance, you could try to verify this. It seems that Penang Hokkien is closest tonally to the Hokkien in Chiangchiu's Longhai county, especially Hai Cheng city. This would make sense in a historical point of view but it would be interesting if one could meet a native from that place and converse with him/her and see how easy we can understand each other.
Yisheng
thanks for your info! Quite an eye opener for me as I've never really delved into the tone change part in Hokkien. Does Penang Hokkien follow the same tonal change ruling as Amoy and the other sub-dialects too?
By the way, if you have the chance, you could try to verify this. It seems that Penang Hokkien is closest tonally to the Hokkien in Chiangchiu's Longhai county, especially Hai Cheng city. This would make sense in a historical point of view but it would be interesting if one could meet a native from that place and converse with him/her and see how easy we can understand each other.
Yisheng