Chinese languages

Any of you guys taken a look at that thread? It's just a bunch of koreans or pro-koreans hacking the topic into mincemeat by shouting insults at a couple of chinese (or pro-chinese) who are determined to return the favor. I do have a simple question though, for those of you knowledgeable in this field.
There's a lot of talk on that thread about some ancient korean history books which chronicle their 9200 year history or something. Since when did koreans have a writing system anytime before the common era(time of christ)?

Here's the quote:
"Sukgeun Jung" <skjung@wam.umd.edu> wrote in message
news:an2iib$kb6$1@gamera.cbl.umces.edu...
As today in 2002, the history of Korea is exactly 9,200 years, not vaguely
> 5,000 years. The number of year is not vague at al. Several ancient Korean
> history books recorded it. Whether you believe it or not is another
> question. The 9,200 years is not related to any religious belief, as the
> history books (such as Taebaek ilsa) are not religious texts.

legends and myths only. just like the bible said noah nearly lived a thousand yrs, who was there to prove it?

and peter, u dun have to answer my questions. just do some searching on the net or library and compare the results, i bet u will be able to find out the truth pretty soon.

what is you prove that dong yi is not korean??

what is you prove that you is not idiot??

:p

Sunset: not at all true. Korean and Japanese are Altaic languages heavily influenced in their later stages, but most of the languages is still Altaic.

Peter North you are pretty funny... i'm not even full chinese and i know about china's history? are you korean or something? i have alot of korean friends and i have never heard them said chinese borrowed characters or language from korean.. its the opposite way around buddy... chinese is an original language written and oral...

no one invented language

sorry to cause you vexation about this...

the Koreans didn't invent Korean;
the Chinese didn't invent Chinese;
the Koreans didn't invent Chinese; and
the Chinese didn't invent Korean.

In the beginning...

there were Altaic grunts and there were Sino-Tibetan grunts. These grunts differed already because they were separated by time and a distance farther than a prehistoric man would dare venture, so that there was no contact between these two grunting groups of prehistoric people (you know, they didn't have cellphones or TVs and stuff like that). (And this point in time might already be halfway through the history of language development.)

A group of Altaic-grunting people traveled far to the east very early on. They were split among themselves by distance and seas. Some grunts developed into Manchu grunts, others into Korean and Japanese grunts. They have been separated from the other Altaic-grunting peoples for so long, it's hard to make a solid connection, nonetheless, their relation is quite likely.

The other group grunting in Sino-Tibetan also got split up over a vast area. The Sinitic grunts developed over time into a Chinese language. They recorded their speech and ideas in bone engravings that matched the monosyllabic nature of their speech. Over time this expanded and reformed until it developed into Chinese characters, specifically fit for the Chinese language.

Meanwhile, the peoples grunting in Korean and Japanese eventually developed into two distinct languages. However, they had not developed a way to record their speech and did not make such bone engravings like the Chinese did. But with civilization and the spreading of the three populations, they soon came into contact with each other and the Koreans and Japanese thought the Chinese way of writing was a good idea, and so they learned it and used it where they lived too.

But both these Korean and Japanese speaking peoples soon realized that not only was their languages polysyllabic, unlike Chinese, but the Chinese characters didn't match their language well. The Koreans worked hard to create a writing that would work for their own language, and it wasn't until the 20th century that it got full acceptance, but by that time so many monosyllabic-based words (including 2-syllable words) from Chinese were being used in the language (even everybody adopted Chinese names!!!), they also kept the Chinese characters, even if not using them at the very minimum continuing to educate their children.

The Japanese also developed a writing system of their own, one adapted from the general shapes of the Chinese characters, since they weren't as creative as the Koreans or the Chinese. They even thought the Chinese characters were so great that they enforced them to fit into the rules of their own language, along with all the other scripts they developed, and they even enforced them onto their local names, even though these names are unrelated to Chinese. In fact, many grown Japanese are even confused to the point that they tell their western colleagues that these characters are indeed of Japanese origin.

The Koreans also get confused about this matter as well, and although the characters clearly do not fit the grammar, syntax, or syllabic nature of Japanese and Korean, they are still greatly confused by this matter. The Uyghurs have a similar grammar, syntax, and syllabic nature as Korean and Japanese do, but they abandoned the idea of applying Chinese characters for writing their language.

In fact, it was the Chinese that were the creative ones. Not only did they invent their writing, but paper, (ink?), printing, medicine, (and does anybody have a more expanded list of all the thousands of inventions?), and one I saw recently, an object that detects earthquakes and their magnitude. Chinese inventions can literally fill volumes of books. How do the Koreans and Japanese compare?

Let me ask you: is it just me or are the Koreans trying really hard to claim to have invented something? Do I feel a little bit of jealousy here? Or even copyright infringement, false claims?? All the things they're good at manufacturing such as cars, ships, electronics, were mostly invented in the west already. The only thing I can think of is basically their own cuisine and Korea's hangul. And then, these aren't things that people use much around the world, not like cars and electronics. Although, I do hear westerners say "let's get some Chinese take-out", I rarely hear "let's go have Japanese" or "let's go have Korean" or "let's get sushi" or "let's get kimchi".

So even in the area of cuisine, it seems that Chinese has better standing throughout the world than Korean or Japanese does.

In conclusion...

I don't think the Chinese get enough recognition for their inventions. That includes Chinese characters. Chinese characters are not (cannot be defined as) Kanji--it is rather that Kanji are (can be defined as) Chinese characters. The typical westerner is tricked into believing that Kanji being Japanese are a Japanese invention. Even I was tricked this way until I investigated. They may have changed the look of a few here, and added a few there, but they're not the invention of the Japanese. This is the same for Korean too.

I even heard once, but I cannot prove it or give the source, that the Chinese were on the verge of inventing a car many many centuries ago while Europe was still in the dark ages and suffering from plagues and death, but the technology didn't advance far enough due to political unrest. Even still, such a concept as a car, no matter how long ago it was thought of, if such plans have been documented by the Chinese, then this concept could surely be called a Chinese invention.

So I don't give a care about the names dongyi, shang, dawenkou, or whatever, the Koreans cannot be claimed responsible for any of the Chinese language or inventions. A Korean should not try and deceive people by digging so far into history so that others will be easily tricked into believing they are a true race of innovation. They are the most backward, selfish, inward looking people I have ever met, and until recently have always been against any development happening in the world outside of Korea. They have always positioned themselves as the "little brother" of China (read: 小弟弟, hah--look at the shape of their peninsula), and throughout history they always ran to the "real and only" recognized emporer in China for help and guidance. China has had open communication with the west through the silk road and with the wise teachings from India for millennia. They have been open to the world, and have been innovative themselves providing their inventions to the world. Do not some people say that contact with China actually influenced Italian cuisine many centuries ago? What did Korea and Japan contribute to Europe? Hangul? Kimono?

For all the pride running through the blood veins of the Korean, if the Chinese had an ounce of it, they would be a greater nation than they are. How could they let the Japanese trample them in WWII? The Chinese should rise up and be proud of everything that is Chinese, and do not let the Koreans and Japanese take the credit. Maybe they should have taxed the Japanese and Koreans for using their characters, or force them to abandon the script if they would not be willing to be part of their empire. But that goes to prove to you how benevolent the Chinese actually are and that they were willing to allow the outer lying barbarian tribes attempt to educate themselves. Besides, it was their forefathers such as Confucius, Mencius and many others teaching and spreading humane values, all such wise forefathers that the outer lying barbarians lacked.

Nobody invented language. There was a natural need for communication and it evolved naturally.

And I forgot to mention, as an answer westerners do not find a use for Hangul or kimonos at all. But you can find at this forum that so many westerners WANT the Chinese characters, to have them tattooed on their bodies. I never heard of westerners wanting HANGUL or HIRAGANA tattooed on their bodies. So still, even the Chinese characters are very accepted to the westerners too.

I even heard that the Korean government was trying so hard for the international community to accept their invention that they tried to convince small native tribes to use Hangul to write their language, but I never heard of this actually happening.

James Campbell wrote:
> And I forgot to mention, as an answer westerners do not find
> a use for Hangul or kimonos at all. But you can find at this
> forum that so many westerners WANT the Chinese characters, to
> have them tattooed on their bodies. I never heard of
> westerners wanting HANGUL or HIRAGANA tattooed on their
> bodies. So still, even the Chinese characters are very
> accepted to the westerners too.

I've also never seen anyone want hangul or hiragana, nor katakana
for that matter, but I have seen (Chinese) bopomofo on baseball caps,
e.g., two bopomofo letters "u" and "ai" for "wai" (the pronunciation of
the letter "Y") meant to signify the New York Yankees baseball team.
(Haven't seen bopomofo tattoos yet, though...)

But overwhelmingly, people do want Chinese characters, even accepting
incorrect translations or poorly drawn characters. I do notice that a sizable
number of the translations and glyph forms of the characters have a
Japanese bias, perhaps because information about Japanese is more
accessible, but at the same time, hiragana and katakana are shunned
even though that may be the typical way of writing a particular word in
Japanese. e.g., what foreigner interested in Japanese things hasn't
desired at some point to "write their name in kanji", when writing it in
katakana is the usual thing to do?


Thomas Chan
tc31@cornell.edu