Hi FutureSpy,
Thanks a lot for sharing all the information about your ethnic/cultural roots, and your attitudes towards "being Japanese" (if indeed that is appropriate terminology, you probably feel more Brazilian than anything else).
I found your explanation about your formerly negative feelings towards Japanese culture / civilization to be very interesting. Because of my interest in German language and history, I have lots of German friends. They sometimes speak about what it's like to be the heirs of a culture/country which did such a horrible thing. It's a difficult position to be in. On the one hand, it's got NOTHING to do with them - almost all of them were born 10-20 years after the Second World War. On the other hand, there's - apparently - no escaping the negative feelings. At least, that's how I understand what some of them feel about this difficult and painful topic. [I should add that these are mostly people in the late-30's to early-50's - young Germans of nowadays might feel this quite differently.]
The Taiwanese attitude to Japan is something really unique. (Of course, I realise that there's no such thing as *the* Taiwanese attitude. I just use the phrase as a convenient generalization.) Because of my interest in Taiwan, I've attended a number of EATS (European Association for Taiwan Studies) conferences. In one, a paper was given on this specific topic. IIRC, part of this touched on Lee Teng-hui's visit to a Japanese war shrine (this was the source of quite a lot of anger and controversy at the time). The reason Lee gave for doing so is that (one of?) his brother(s) actually died fighting in the Japanese army. The giver of the paper pointed out just how unique (and remarkable) this situation is: no other head of state of any country in East or S.E. Asia could possibly even contemplate visiting a Japanese war shrine (let alone actually do it). He used this example to highlight the truly unique relationship that Taiwan has to Japan. [And - on a more personal level - when I was on holiday there, I met a (mid-30's) guy who was completely obsessed with Japan: he spoke Japanese, he furnished his house in Japanese style, he went to Japan for holidays at every possible opportunity, etc.]
I think these things show that nothing is ever really black and white. It's often not the case that culture-X or country-Y is a completely brutal and horrible - the reality is always a bit more nuanced than that. [I'm willing to recognize exceptions (which you also speak of): the Japanese behaviour in the invasion of China and S.E. Asia, the Nazi "Final Solution", the Cambodian "Killing Fields", the genocide in Rwanda. In those cases, I don't think that there's something to be said for the oppressing side.] So, it makes quite a lot of sense to me that some older Taiwanese might think of the Japanese period as a "Golden Age".
As for not respecting one's own dialect or language, and admiring that of a more powerful party, I suppose that's simply a known human trait. Many Singaporeans and Taiwanese feel that about the language of their grandparents, with respect to Mandarin; many Babas felt it for Hokkien, with respect to English; etc, etc. This often happens when two languages / cultures are in an unequal power relationship. It's saddening to see, but perhaps one can accept it on the basis of the fact that it's such a common human phenomenon...
Thanks also for sharing some of the little known historical information on how Japanese immigrant workers were exploited in Brazil. This too (sadly) seems to be a universal human trait. As recently as 2 years ago, there was a report in the Dutch press about how a Dutch couple had exploited a group of Polish(?) immigrant workers in an outrageous way. The couple took the workers' Polish passports away from them, so that they couldn't go back to Poland easily. They "provided accommodation and food" to the workers, but charged them such a high rate for both that the Poles hardly had any money left over from what they were official paid by the couple (they made sure the Poles couldn't buy food from anywhere else than the couple themselves - I can't remember how, perhaps because they lived on a remote farm, and didn't give the Poles access to transport or something). And - of course - they made them work incredibly long hours. [Aren't the parallels to the treatment of the Japanese immigrant workers in Brazil amazing!] And we also periodically read about the bad treatment of Indonesian and Filipino maids in the countries they go to work in. But, in contrast to the previous point, this is a wide-spread human trait that I *don't* accept simply because it's so prevalent.
Thanks again for your sharing. I look forward to reading more of your thoughts in the future.
Diphthongs
Re: Diphthongs
FutureSpy, Sim & Amhoanna: Thank you all for the interesting information & stories! I really enjoy reading them! 
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Yeleixingfeng
- Posts: 110
- Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:50 am
Re: Diphthongs
Hi FutureSpy, nice to meet you. ^.^ Read your biography - thinks it's interesting, though I wonder how old you are, if you don't mind telling. Sorry for repeating the question if it was previously raised. >.<
Hmm, anti-Japan feelings are very much antique in Malaysia, from what I observed. Your thoughts on Japan are honestly quite astonishing - even more so when you said you are 3/4 Japanese. My parents don't harbour any aversion to Japan at all; plenty of my friends are infatuated with Japanese anime - they drive me insane. My grandparents died when I was young, but I don't see any old people cursing Japan whenever Japanese anime is on screen. And, since we are on the topic, Germans I met don't seem to feel bad about anything. 0.o?? In fact, they dislike China - for obvious reasons.
Well, I myself LOVE Japanese (as a language) for its Sinitic links, and Japan (as a civilisation) for its well-preserved culture. Many practices, like 敬語 (KeiGo/"Respect Language") have primarily eroded away in China, but are still live and kicking in Japan - you have to give them credit. They simplified Hanji to a lesser extent too, albeit being equally illogical, and maintains it in daily usage. I have learnt Japanese for 2 years at least, though I'm still quite deaf to verbal Japanese.
Proceeding to politics... IMO, the Japanese occupation did good to Taiwan. If not for them Taiwan would not have emerged as the second home for us Chinese immigrants in terms of culture and language. The Taiwanese pronunciation of Mandarin is much more acceptable than the Shishashishaws of Beijing. Undeniably, many Malaysian artists flew to Taiwan for further advancement. Imported Taiwanese novels (notably 九把刀) flourish in Malaysia, but imported China-ese novels just don't appeal to us. In fact we automatically assume enticing, juicy novels to be Taiwanese. (Much like how Malaysian Malays don't really listen to Malaysian Malay songs - something I learnt from National Service. But that's a different case.)
I attribute those to influences from Japan during the occupational era. Japan shielded Taiwan against the revolutionary ideologies brewing in China, and instead nourished many cultural aspects of Taiwan. The much more accurate Sinitic phonetics 註音 (Zhuyin) emerged due to inspiration from the Japanese kana too, rumour has it. Vertical Chinese scripts and the Traditional font are prominent in Taiwanese literary works too, up til now. (I guess the British colonial era explains HongKong too.) Japan salvaged Taiwan from the China-ese catastrophe!
Malaysia suffered some cultural damage too, owing to LeeKuanYew's unwise decision, but essentially the popular Chinese community retained much of the traditions and Confucian philosophical habits. SimL would know much about this. So, Taiwan remains to be the closest compatible culture to Malaysian Chinese - fundamentally detached 'banana' Chinese form the fourth race in Malaysia, IMO. -_-ll (Banana meaning talk like a Westerner, think like a Westerner, act like a Westerner. The fact that SimL is here rules out many English-educated in the second and third category.)
Nonetheless, regarding the Japanese massacre, they are certainly wrong. I have nothing to say about that.
Singapore poses as a stemming brain-drain threat to Malaysia - this is partly due to the useless Malaysian government as well. -_-ll Singapore is the most economically thriving country in SEA, undoubtedly, therefore many Malaysians - CHINESE in particular - migrate there for higher salary. The Singaporean government, brilliant as always, offered scholarships to encourage emigration. Reluctant of its prejudiced quota system, however, Malaysia lost innumerable Chinese and Indians to Singapore. Let's face it, without them Malaysia would be literally kuala lumpur. (the Estuary of Muds, name of capital of Malaysia.)
So, this is the real reason why Han Chinese is still the largest population in Singapore. But so what? It's not as if they lead any sinitic movement in SEA. Hanfu, Hokkien, Traditional Chinese (TC) etc are centred in Malaysia. The Singaporean government even merged 南洋大學 Nanyang University which was a solely Chinese-funded university, around 1980, with the University of Singapore. Why? To promote English, and to cleanse the university of any Chinese origins such that other races would not feel marginalised. HECK, FACE IT! The Malays did not build a single university as successful during the colonial era!
Should have built the university in Malaysia. I bet its fate would have greatly differed. Zzzzzzzzzzz......
And, I shun Singaporeans also for their materialism and rudeness - which I personally think they possess. Malaysia is a warm and loving country; Singapore is kind of icy. I'm not saying they are cold-hearted. There is just a tad bit less interaction between strangers. And, they regard Malaysians with disdain. Even in MMORPGs, ie online games, Malaysians and Singaporeans often quarrel. MapleSEA even went to the extent of creating two separate "gateways" to effectively compartmentalise Malaysians and Singaporeans. Sure enough, the Malaysian friendliness is prominent in its gateway. Unintended mistakes are frequently accompanied by a brief sorry, and even effortless gestures would earn you a thanks.
Finally, hi everyone. I'm back, for good I hope. Haha. ^.^
Hmm, anti-Japan feelings are very much antique in Malaysia, from what I observed. Your thoughts on Japan are honestly quite astonishing - even more so when you said you are 3/4 Japanese. My parents don't harbour any aversion to Japan at all; plenty of my friends are infatuated with Japanese anime - they drive me insane. My grandparents died when I was young, but I don't see any old people cursing Japan whenever Japanese anime is on screen. And, since we are on the topic, Germans I met don't seem to feel bad about anything. 0.o?? In fact, they dislike China - for obvious reasons.
Well, I myself LOVE Japanese (as a language) for its Sinitic links, and Japan (as a civilisation) for its well-preserved culture. Many practices, like 敬語 (KeiGo/"Respect Language") have primarily eroded away in China, but are still live and kicking in Japan - you have to give them credit. They simplified Hanji to a lesser extent too, albeit being equally illogical, and maintains it in daily usage. I have learnt Japanese for 2 years at least, though I'm still quite deaf to verbal Japanese.
Proceeding to politics... IMO, the Japanese occupation did good to Taiwan. If not for them Taiwan would not have emerged as the second home for us Chinese immigrants in terms of culture and language. The Taiwanese pronunciation of Mandarin is much more acceptable than the Shishashishaws of Beijing. Undeniably, many Malaysian artists flew to Taiwan for further advancement. Imported Taiwanese novels (notably 九把刀) flourish in Malaysia, but imported China-ese novels just don't appeal to us. In fact we automatically assume enticing, juicy novels to be Taiwanese. (Much like how Malaysian Malays don't really listen to Malaysian Malay songs - something I learnt from National Service. But that's a different case.)
I attribute those to influences from Japan during the occupational era. Japan shielded Taiwan against the revolutionary ideologies brewing in China, and instead nourished many cultural aspects of Taiwan. The much more accurate Sinitic phonetics 註音 (Zhuyin) emerged due to inspiration from the Japanese kana too, rumour has it. Vertical Chinese scripts and the Traditional font are prominent in Taiwanese literary works too, up til now. (I guess the British colonial era explains HongKong too.) Japan salvaged Taiwan from the China-ese catastrophe!
Malaysia suffered some cultural damage too, owing to LeeKuanYew's unwise decision, but essentially the popular Chinese community retained much of the traditions and Confucian philosophical habits. SimL would know much about this. So, Taiwan remains to be the closest compatible culture to Malaysian Chinese - fundamentally detached 'banana' Chinese form the fourth race in Malaysia, IMO. -_-ll (Banana meaning talk like a Westerner, think like a Westerner, act like a Westerner. The fact that SimL is here rules out many English-educated in the second and third category.)
Nonetheless, regarding the Japanese massacre, they are certainly wrong. I have nothing to say about that.
Singapore poses as a stemming brain-drain threat to Malaysia - this is partly due to the useless Malaysian government as well. -_-ll Singapore is the most economically thriving country in SEA, undoubtedly, therefore many Malaysians - CHINESE in particular - migrate there for higher salary. The Singaporean government, brilliant as always, offered scholarships to encourage emigration. Reluctant of its prejudiced quota system, however, Malaysia lost innumerable Chinese and Indians to Singapore. Let's face it, without them Malaysia would be literally kuala lumpur. (the Estuary of Muds, name of capital of Malaysia.)
So, this is the real reason why Han Chinese is still the largest population in Singapore. But so what? It's not as if they lead any sinitic movement in SEA. Hanfu, Hokkien, Traditional Chinese (TC) etc are centred in Malaysia. The Singaporean government even merged 南洋大學 Nanyang University which was a solely Chinese-funded university, around 1980, with the University of Singapore. Why? To promote English, and to cleanse the university of any Chinese origins such that other races would not feel marginalised. HECK, FACE IT! The Malays did not build a single university as successful during the colonial era!
Should have built the university in Malaysia. I bet its fate would have greatly differed. Zzzzzzzzzzz......
And, I shun Singaporeans also for their materialism and rudeness - which I personally think they possess. Malaysia is a warm and loving country; Singapore is kind of icy. I'm not saying they are cold-hearted. There is just a tad bit less interaction between strangers. And, they regard Malaysians with disdain. Even in MMORPGs, ie online games, Malaysians and Singaporeans often quarrel. MapleSEA even went to the extent of creating two separate "gateways" to effectively compartmentalise Malaysians and Singaporeans. Sure enough, the Malaysian friendliness is prominent in its gateway. Unintended mistakes are frequently accompanied by a brief sorry, and even effortless gestures would earn you a thanks.
Finally, hi everyone. I'm back, for good I hope. Haha. ^.^
Re: Diphthongs
Hi Yeleixingfeng,
Thanks for your thoughts on this subject! I may reply in more detail later, but I'm tied up with other stuff at the moment. I just wanted to remark on one point for the moment.
>> The fact that SimL is here rules out many English-educated in the second and third category
I think it's very difficult to say how "Western" or "Chinese" I am (again, glossing over the point that there is no such thing as a *single* Chinese attitude or identity (or a "Western" one, for that matter).
I think of myself as very Western, and undoubtedly that's true, because I went to live in a Western country (Australia) at the age of 14, and have lived among white people ever since. 1) 14 is quite a young impressionable age. 2) I immediately felt very at home among white people (and still do). 3. I have a lot of respect and admiration for some aspects of Western culture and history (specifically the Enlightenment, but also "democracy", "progressiveness", "liberalism", and even "non-respect for authority or tradition"). In these respects I'm very Western. On the other hand, I lived in quite a Chinese environment up to the age of 14. 1. The years 0-14 are also very formative years of one's life, perhaps more formative for the *fundamental* things one believes and feels. 2. I have a lot of respect for Chinese culture and history (specifically, the "unbroken" continuity of the tradition, and the intellectual and artistic achievements, and even (paradoxically!) "respect for authority and tradition"). [I can remember being furious at a Dutch guy (who thought he knew me very well) who once said to me "You're not Chinese at all, you just happen to look Chinese."]
So, it's all grey shades, no black or white. I'm a banana smoothie (or perhaps just a mashed up banana)
!
Perhaps someone like FutureSpy shares some of these aspects with me too. My own life history has made me very interested in the subject of "identity" - how does one identify and label oneself, why does one choose the specific labels that one does, etc.
Thanks for your thoughts on this subject! I may reply in more detail later, but I'm tied up with other stuff at the moment. I just wanted to remark on one point
for the moment.>> The fact that SimL is here rules out many English-educated in the second and third category
I think it's very difficult to say how "Western" or "Chinese" I am (again, glossing over the point that there is no such thing as a *single* Chinese attitude or identity (or a "Western" one, for that matter).
I think of myself as very Western, and undoubtedly that's true, because I went to live in a Western country (Australia) at the age of 14, and have lived among white people ever since. 1) 14 is quite a young impressionable age. 2) I immediately felt very at home among white people (and still do). 3. I have a lot of respect and admiration for some aspects of Western culture and history (specifically the Enlightenment, but also "democracy", "progressiveness", "liberalism", and even "non-respect for authority or tradition"). In these respects I'm very Western. On the other hand, I lived in quite a Chinese environment up to the age of 14. 1. The years 0-14 are also very formative years of one's life, perhaps more formative for the *fundamental* things one believes and feels. 2. I have a lot of respect for Chinese culture and history (specifically, the "unbroken" continuity of the tradition, and the intellectual and artistic achievements, and even (paradoxically!) "respect for authority and tradition"). [I can remember being furious at a Dutch guy (who thought he knew me very well) who once said to me "You're not Chinese at all, you just happen to look Chinese."]
So, it's all grey shades, no black or white. I'm a banana smoothie (or perhaps just a mashed up banana)
!Perhaps someone like FutureSpy shares some of these aspects with me too. My own life history has made me very interested in the subject of "identity" - how does one identify and label oneself, why does one choose the specific labels that one does, etc.
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Yeleixingfeng
- Posts: 110
- Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:50 am
Re: Diphthongs
Haha. Forgive my objectivity - here in Malaysia when the word "Western" is mentioned, clubbing, RAP and immature sex comes to mind. NOBODY would think of the courteous British gentlemen, Shakespeare, the Greek Gods or afternoon tea. It's just how the Western world publicised itself to the East.
Undeniably, there are plenty of discrepancy in thinking, though as you would have realised, I'm talking about the Americans rather than the Europeans. I noticed this quite recently, Americans are intuitively xenophobic while Chinese welcome the foreign heart-warmingly - referring to the contemporary popular consensus, not history. For example, Aliens automatically become the antagonist of the movie, without any convincing evidence. Aliens come to Earth why? To destroy Earth, to inhabit Earth, to extract resources from Earth - no more. (E.T. is an exception, then again that movie is out-dated. >.<) On the other hand, Chinese literature often feature friendship between the races, like 《藍血人》 and many of the Doraemon episodes. Casting our attention back to reality, America has feared China even before China's emergence as an economic giant - frequently bombarding China as being a hopeless nation with an awfully crippled language. And, now they continue to fear them.
The Hanji system, ie the ideograph system indeed is inferior to the alphabetical system in many ways. No doubt about that. Sigh..
Yeah, so basically that is one of the differences.
By the way, don't take things too physically. "Talking like a Westerner" - which I realise now does not refer to the Europeans - does not necessarily mean talking English or any of the Romance languages, but essentially talking, acting, and thinking like an American. These people may be in Chinese schools, yet since their brains are hard-wired to think Western, they hate Chinese as a subject, don't listen to Chinese songs, and watch only Western movies. The indirect implications of the Tang poems are foreign to them, as they are accustomed to the straightforward culture of America.
Then again of course, not all Americans behave like an aforementioned American, so my definition of them are very very very very much biased. I was just saying generically. Food for thought, don't take me seriously on this. Haha.
Undeniably, there are plenty of discrepancy in thinking, though as you would have realised, I'm talking about the Americans rather than the Europeans. I noticed this quite recently, Americans are intuitively xenophobic while Chinese welcome the foreign heart-warmingly - referring to the contemporary popular consensus, not history. For example, Aliens automatically become the antagonist of the movie, without any convincing evidence. Aliens come to Earth why? To destroy Earth, to inhabit Earth, to extract resources from Earth - no more. (E.T. is an exception, then again that movie is out-dated. >.<) On the other hand, Chinese literature often feature friendship between the races, like 《藍血人》 and many of the Doraemon episodes. Casting our attention back to reality, America has feared China even before China's emergence as an economic giant - frequently bombarding China as being a hopeless nation with an awfully crippled language. And, now they continue to fear them.
The Hanji system, ie the ideograph system indeed is inferior to the alphabetical system in many ways. No doubt about that. Sigh..
Yeah, so basically that is one of the differences.
By the way, don't take things too physically. "Talking like a Westerner" - which I realise now does not refer to the Europeans - does not necessarily mean talking English or any of the Romance languages, but essentially talking, acting, and thinking like an American. These people may be in Chinese schools, yet since their brains are hard-wired to think Western, they hate Chinese as a subject, don't listen to Chinese songs, and watch only Western movies. The indirect implications of the Tang poems are foreign to them, as they are accustomed to the straightforward culture of America.
Then again of course, not all Americans behave like an aforementioned American, so my definition of them are very very very very much biased. I was just saying generically. Food for thought, don't take me seriously on this. Haha.
Re: Diphthongs
Hi Yeleixingfeng,
No, I certainly hadn't realised that you were thinking of one set of cultural traits, and I was thinking of a totally different - non-overlapping - set when we both used the word "Western". As I'm not into clubbing or rap (and I'm far too old for immature sex), I wouldn't be able to call myself "Western" in the meaning you were intending. And it's good that you clarify that you think more of the American side of Western civilization than the European one, when you use the word "Western".
>> I noticed this quite recently, Americans are intuitively xenophobic while Chinese welcome the
>> foreign heart-warmingly - referring to the contemporary popular consensus, not history.
I would be very careful of making a generalization like that. The two countries are very different, have totally different histories (and current conditions), so it's difficult to compare them.
Let me start by giving an example. In the 1950's-1970's, all of Scandinavia considered itself to be a shining example of racial tolerance. They were very proud of their liberal / progressive views, and how non-racist they were, compared to the Germans, and even the English and the French. And they truly were non-racist: there were few incidents against foreigners, very little anti-foreigner rhetoric in the public sphere, etc. But it was very easy to be like that in a society which was 98% blond and blue-eyed (which it used to be up to that time). It's only when they had to deal with 20%-40% of their inner cities having immigrants - from the 1970's onwards - that the real test occurred. The bloodbath in Norway is one of the results, but so are all the popular anti-immigrant political parties in the Scandinavia of the 1980's up until today.
I bring this example up in the current context because there are far more foreign (read "non-Anglo-Saxon", including East Asian) people living in Australia and the US than there are white people living in the PRC and Taiwan. So, while there may be daily incidents of racism in Australia and the US from white people against these "foreigners", the fact that there are not the same number committed by Chinese people against whites in the PRC and Taiwan doesn't say much about whether Chinese culture is more tolerant of foreigners than American culture is.
From another point of view (i.e. a "positive" one), I personally believe that an East Asian can fit in and be accepted in the US, Australia or New Zealand to a far greater extent than a white person could in the PRC, Taiwan, Japan or S. Korea. My parents migrated to Australia in their 40's, and yet are quite happy (and "proud") to call themselves "Australian" (and felt that within 5-10 years of moving there). I wonder if a white person could feel himself/herself as easily accepted after even 20 years living in Taiwan, Japan, etc. I.e. would they be able to say "Yes, I'm Chinese", "Yes, I'm Taiwanese". I think the answer is "no".
That's the only point in your reply which I wanted to ask you to reflect about a bit. The other point about American society having a strongly paranoid, doom-scenario element about it, I don't want to dispute at all. I quite agree with your analysis of this (and that it's reflected in many of the movies they make, as a sub-text).
As a side issue to this though, I would like to add a new thought. Namely, I got fed up of watching Chinese movies (I mean, the "great art" Chinese movies). I'm thinking of the classics from directors like Zhang Yimou and Chen Kaige. After my 4th or 5th "great movie" where the hero bleeds to death in the arms of his potential future wife, upon which she kills herself (or they hug one another and jump off a cliff together, etc), as the music gets louder and louder and more and more dramatic, I lost my patience. I walked out thinking "What IS it about Chinese culture, that over and over again, everybody dies, after 2.5 hours of suffering and struggle?". Give me the Western rom-coms *anytime*. In a similar way to your wondering if there isn't something fundamentally weird about American society, because of their obsession with invasion and hostile aliens, I wondered if there isn't something fundamentally weird about Chinese society, because of their obsession with tragedy and suffering and death. (Of course, I'm not saying that obsession with death is just as bad as paranoia, I'm just drawing some vague parallel. And I'm also aware that Japanese culture is probably even more obsessed with death than Chinese culture is...)
I'll leave it at that (for the moment).
No, I certainly hadn't realised that you were thinking of one set of cultural traits, and I was thinking of a totally different - non-overlapping - set when we both used the word "Western". As I'm not into clubbing or rap (and I'm far too old for immature sex), I wouldn't be able to call myself "Western" in the meaning you were intending. And it's good that you clarify that you think more of the American side of Western civilization than the European one, when you use the word "Western".
>> I noticed this quite recently, Americans are intuitively xenophobic while Chinese welcome the
>> foreign heart-warmingly - referring to the contemporary popular consensus, not history.
I would be very careful of making a generalization like that. The two countries are very different, have totally different histories (and current conditions), so it's difficult to compare them.
Let me start by giving an example. In the 1950's-1970's, all of Scandinavia considered itself to be a shining example of racial tolerance. They were very proud of their liberal / progressive views, and how non-racist they were, compared to the Germans, and even the English and the French. And they truly were non-racist: there were few incidents against foreigners, very little anti-foreigner rhetoric in the public sphere, etc. But it was very easy to be like that in a society which was 98% blond and blue-eyed (which it used to be up to that time). It's only when they had to deal with 20%-40% of their inner cities having immigrants - from the 1970's onwards - that the real test occurred. The bloodbath in Norway is one of the results, but so are all the popular anti-immigrant political parties in the Scandinavia of the 1980's up until today.
I bring this example up in the current context because there are far more foreign (read "non-Anglo-Saxon", including East Asian) people living in Australia and the US than there are white people living in the PRC and Taiwan. So, while there may be daily incidents of racism in Australia and the US from white people against these "foreigners", the fact that there are not the same number committed by Chinese people against whites in the PRC and Taiwan doesn't say much about whether Chinese culture is more tolerant of foreigners than American culture is.
From another point of view (i.e. a "positive" one), I personally believe that an East Asian can fit in and be accepted in the US, Australia or New Zealand to a far greater extent than a white person could in the PRC, Taiwan, Japan or S. Korea. My parents migrated to Australia in their 40's, and yet are quite happy (and "proud") to call themselves "Australian" (and felt that within 5-10 years of moving there). I wonder if a white person could feel himself/herself as easily accepted after even 20 years living in Taiwan, Japan, etc. I.e. would they be able to say "Yes, I'm Chinese", "Yes, I'm Taiwanese". I think the answer is "no".
That's the only point in your reply which I wanted to ask you to reflect about a bit. The other point about American society having a strongly paranoid, doom-scenario element about it, I don't want to dispute at all. I quite agree with your analysis of this (and that it's reflected in many of the movies they make, as a sub-text).
As a side issue to this though, I would like to add a new thought. Namely, I got fed up of watching Chinese movies (I mean, the "great art" Chinese movies). I'm thinking of the classics from directors like Zhang Yimou and Chen Kaige. After my 4th or 5th "great movie" where the hero bleeds to death in the arms of his potential future wife, upon which she kills herself (or they hug one another and jump off a cliff together, etc), as the music gets louder and louder and more and more dramatic, I lost my patience. I walked out thinking "What IS it about Chinese culture, that over and over again, everybody dies, after 2.5 hours of suffering and struggle?". Give me the Western rom-coms *anytime*. In a similar way to your wondering if there isn't something fundamentally weird about American society, because of their obsession with invasion and hostile aliens, I wondered if there isn't something fundamentally weird about Chinese society, because of their obsession with tragedy and suffering and death. (Of course, I'm not saying that obsession with death is just as bad as paranoia, I'm just drawing some vague parallel. And I'm also aware that Japanese culture is probably even more obsessed with death than Chinese culture is...)
I'll leave it at that (for the moment).
Re: Diphthongs
Interesting theory, YLXF.
Sino-TWese would tend to agree that the "Japanese Era" was good for TW, but for different reasons relating mostly to economic advancement and "Westernization" (Meiji).
I would tend to think that the Cultural Revolution and other Neo-Chinese (PRC) policies are what killed Chinese culture in China, not the movements of the Republican era.
In some respects, sinkhek Sino-M'sians have been more conservative than Sino-TWese, no? Yet Sino-M'sian culture has taken on a tinge of the Neo-Chinese. I think this has to do with the early ties btw Communist Sino-M'sians and Communist Chinese, and the fact that these early ties were never really betrayed, although they were attacked by the "foreign powers", which only strengthened the ties on an emotional level. In other words, events in Malaya led Sino-Malayans to identify with political and cultural movements in China -- esp. b/c much of what took place could be classed as "persecution", a perennial favorite for the disadvantaged Chinese plurality (worldwide).
Sino-Saigonese culture has been conservative like Sino-M'sian culture, although much more "outbred". Yet the community has been unanimous in its distaste for all things Neo-Chinese. The Chinese edition of the Saigon Viet Cong newspaper publishes in Traditional Chinese to this day. A Communist rag, publishing in Traditional Chinese.
I'll also put forward the uneducated guess that the Neo-Chinese campaign to wipe out traditional culture caused the "Eastern Republic" based on TW to begin to identify itself with cultural preservation. But even this was done in a monolithic way till the last decade or two -- I'm talking about the 20th century Imperial ("Beijing") architecture that U see so much of in 台北 and 高雄.
Some would say that the newfound emphasis on "local culture" (on a micro-level) in TW is a continuation of a "locophilic" attitude instilled in "Japanese times". For all I know, this may be true.
On a more "spiritual" level, Japan, Vietnam, and the Deep South of China (and to some extent the Koreas) have been carriers of a "lost" Tang culture. And the colonization of Taiwan by Hokkienese, Hakka and Japanese has been a time of reinforcing contact w/i this sphere.
Most of the foreigners in TW now are Southeast Asian, if U don't count the Chinese-born as foreigners. White people are a minority even among foreigners, but the Sino-TWese are so demented that they think of white people and Turkish or Arab types as being the only "true" foreigners.
The Anglo world has made big strides in the past few decades to check and correct itself on its attitudes towards people of other "races". This is something that the Chinese have done very little of. The US influence is so strong in TW, though, that they seem to be getting it through that connection. Nowadays a lot of government services in TW are available in Vietnamese, Thai and Indonesian. This started just a few yrs ago.
I rd a joke recently that TW is a "xenophilic" society in the sense that the wives of the lower class are foreigners, the children of the middle class are foreigners (sent abroad for their education, etc.), and the upper class are mostly foreigners in themselves (Chinese, esp. born in China).
Sino-TWese would tend to agree that the "Japanese Era" was good for TW, but for different reasons relating mostly to economic advancement and "Westernization" (Meiji).
I would tend to think that the Cultural Revolution and other Neo-Chinese (PRC) policies are what killed Chinese culture in China, not the movements of the Republican era.
In some respects, sinkhek Sino-M'sians have been more conservative than Sino-TWese, no? Yet Sino-M'sian culture has taken on a tinge of the Neo-Chinese. I think this has to do with the early ties btw Communist Sino-M'sians and Communist Chinese, and the fact that these early ties were never really betrayed, although they were attacked by the "foreign powers", which only strengthened the ties on an emotional level. In other words, events in Malaya led Sino-Malayans to identify with political and cultural movements in China -- esp. b/c much of what took place could be classed as "persecution", a perennial favorite for the disadvantaged Chinese plurality (worldwide).
Sino-Saigonese culture has been conservative like Sino-M'sian culture, although much more "outbred". Yet the community has been unanimous in its distaste for all things Neo-Chinese. The Chinese edition of the Saigon Viet Cong newspaper publishes in Traditional Chinese to this day. A Communist rag, publishing in Traditional Chinese.
I'll also put forward the uneducated guess that the Neo-Chinese campaign to wipe out traditional culture caused the "Eastern Republic" based on TW to begin to identify itself with cultural preservation. But even this was done in a monolithic way till the last decade or two -- I'm talking about the 20th century Imperial ("Beijing") architecture that U see so much of in 台北 and 高雄.
Some would say that the newfound emphasis on "local culture" (on a micro-level) in TW is a continuation of a "locophilic" attitude instilled in "Japanese times". For all I know, this may be true.
On a more "spiritual" level, Japan, Vietnam, and the Deep South of China (and to some extent the Koreas) have been carriers of a "lost" Tang culture. And the colonization of Taiwan by Hokkienese, Hakka and Japanese has been a time of reinforcing contact w/i this sphere.
So they listen to Indonesian music?Malaysian Malays don't really listen to Malaysian Malay songs - something I learnt from National Service.
I noticed this quite recently, Americans are intuitively xenophobic while Chinese welcome the foreign heart-warmingly
I would say the Chinese are just as intuitively xenophobic as Anglo-Americans, but they also lack the "self-correcting" mechanisms that Anglos have developed in the last few decades. I would say that xenophobia is a human trait, but E. Asian xenophobia is pure xenophobia, whereas Anglo-Germanic xenophobia takes the form of racism, and obsessions with "whiteness".there are far more foreign (read "non-Anglo-Saxon", including East Asian) people living in Australia and the US than there are white people living in the PRC and Taiwan. So, while there may be daily incidents of racism in Australia and the US from white people against these "foreigners", the fact that there are not the same number committed by Chinese people against whites in the PRC and Taiwan doesn't say much about whether Chinese culture is more tolerant of foreigners than American culture is.
Most of the foreigners in TW now are Southeast Asian, if U don't count the Chinese-born as foreigners. White people are a minority even among foreigners, but the Sino-TWese are so demented that they think of white people and Turkish or Arab types as being the only "true" foreigners.
The Anglo world has made big strides in the past few decades to check and correct itself on its attitudes towards people of other "races". This is something that the Chinese have done very little of. The US influence is so strong in TW, though, that they seem to be getting it through that connection. Nowadays a lot of government services in TW are available in Vietnamese, Thai and Indonesian. This started just a few yrs ago.
I rd a joke recently that TW is a "xenophilic" society in the sense that the wives of the lower class are foreigners, the children of the middle class are foreigners (sent abroad for their education, etc.), and the upper class are mostly foreigners in themselves (Chinese, esp. born in China).
Re: Diphthongs
Hi amhoanna,
As usual, I love reading your analyses and thoughts! Sometimes (but not at all often) I don't quite agree with them (usually more from an emotional/attitude point of view, than from the factual side of the analysis), but even then, I always find that you think things out very well, and take into account many historical and cultural aspects of the topic you're discussing.
The Baba paternal side of my family were, in some senses "far more Chinese" than my Sin-Khek maternal side, because they continued to practice / have (slightly modified versions of) the customs and attitudes of 19th century China (when they left the mainland), completely untouched by the modern progressive movements of the end of the 19th century / early 20th century. I always found it interesting to note this, because of the paradox that they couldn't read or write Chinese. In the eyes of many Sin-Kheks, that made them "not real Chinese at all", but they were doing things and behaving in ways which were far more Chinese (whatever that means!) than the Sin-Kheks who despised them for being illiterate in characters.
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I liked very much your analysis of the degree of xenophobia Anglo-Americans vs. Chinese.
But I understand what you mean, and there are parallels here too. Here in Northern Europe, the children of Greek or Italian immigrants, who (I mean the children) speak fluent and accent-free Dutch (or German, Swedish, etc) would be fully accepted as "Dutch" (or German, Swedish, etc), but the same would not apply if the ethnic background is Turkish, Arabic (or East Asian too, for that matter, though to a far lesser extent).
As usual, I love reading your analyses and thoughts! Sometimes (but not at all often) I don't quite agree with them (usually more from an emotional/attitude point of view, than from the factual side of the analysis), but even then, I always find that you think things out very well, and take into account many historical and cultural aspects of the topic you're discussing.
My maternal granddad supporting the CCP in the early years is a very good instance of this, I guess.events in Malaya led Sino-Malayans to identify with political and cultural movements in China
The Baba paternal side of my family were, in some senses "far more Chinese" than my Sin-Khek maternal side, because they continued to practice / have (slightly modified versions of) the customs and attitudes of 19th century China (when they left the mainland), completely untouched by the modern progressive movements of the end of the 19th century / early 20th century. I always found it interesting to note this, because of the paradox that they couldn't read or write Chinese. In the eyes of many Sin-Kheks, that made them "not real Chinese at all", but they were doing things and behaving in ways which were far more Chinese (whatever that means!) than the Sin-Kheks who despised them for being illiterate in characters.
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I liked very much your analysis of the degree of xenophobia Anglo-Americans vs. Chinese.
The poor Turks and Arabs! They get the bad end of the stick in the US, Europe, AND China-Taiwan!the Sino-TWese are so demented that they think of white people and Turkish or Arab types as being the only "true" foreigners
But I understand what you mean, and there are parallels here too. Here in Northern Europe, the children of Greek or Italian immigrants, who (I mean the children) speak fluent and accent-free Dutch (or German, Swedish, etc) would be fully accepted as "Dutch" (or German, Swedish, etc), but the same would not apply if the ethnic background is Turkish, Arabic (or East Asian too, for that matter, though to a far lesser extent).
Re: Diphthongs
Thanks!As usual, I love reading your analyses and thought
Interesting about the Babas keeping old traditions alive. Not surprising!
Recently I read a story written by a 20-something Baba femme. On her first long trip away from home, a lot of Sinkheks were curious and kind of under-informed about her heritage... But after a few days, an older Sinkhek lady came up to her and said, "I can see it now, U move like a Malay!"
This reminded me of last yr when a friend and I admired a 20-something Malay femme as she sashayed down a street in one of the older districts of Canton 廣州. We (and she!) had done the same at other times in Nusantara, but to see her do it on Chinese soil was something else. She just had this womanly rhythm and flow... In Sinospheric terms, the word would be "hyperwomanly", and indeed most women don't move that way, or don't dare move that way in the Sino countries inc. Japan.
It's strange that some people use the phrase 紅毛屎 ângmô·sái to refer to people that speak Malay and/or Hokkien regularly (i.e. ahead of English) simply b/c they don't know kanji and/or Mandarin. Since when were Hokkien and Malay angmo languages? How is Malaysia going to become a "developed country" if its citizens are so bad at logic??
The same kind of thing is at play with this website:
http://www.borneocolours.com/
Wouldn't it make sense for a Borneo website to be Malay-language-dominant? But leave it to M'sians to solve everything by "just using English", cries of angmosai be damned.
I can hear them already, the average M'sians, protesting my viciousness... B/c they're mostly very nice people, just very conservative and afraid to pop bubbles and face paradoxes...Au contraire! Sino people tend to think of "white people" as being the real "foreigners", while black, brown and yellow foreigners aren't really "foreigners", but definitely aren't "one of us" either. It's these Africans and Indians and Southeast Asians that tend to get shafted in Sinociety. And Turks and Arab are generally lucky enough to pass as white people, or bona fide "foreigners".the Sino-TWese are so demented that they think of white people and Turkish or Arab types as being the only "true" foreigners
The poor Turks and Arabs! They get the bad end of the stick in the US, Europe, AND China-Taiwan!
Re: Diphthongs
Hi Yeleixingfeng. I'm 23 now, and I'm actually full Japanese. 3/4 of my heritage is Akita province. Considering the surnames from those 3/4 didn't really leave Northeastern area, at least not until very recently, I could say I'm at least very Touhoku (not that anyone there claim that as their identity tho). As for the remaining 1/4, they're from Hokkaido, but that means absolutely nothing, as most Japanese there were actually immigrants. My grandma's surname is found in nearly ALL provinces in Japan, but at a relative low frequency (often only 1 entry in the telephone directories). Only Saga (Southern Japan) or Saitama (near Tokyo area) have a substantial yet not big enough amount of people to be conclusive in any way, and since these two areas are geographically very far from one another, they could perfectly have emerged independently. Besides, 真島 is much more frequent than 眞島, and it might also have to do with 眞 not making Japanese Gov's Jouyou Kanji lists and possibly being replaced by 真 (similar to people outside Japan who still use 會 instead of 会 on their surnames), so I might not be on the right track. I can get a copy of 戸籍 (family registries), but since they only started to be systematically issued in the early Meiji era, I'm very limited on the amount of information I can extract from them, let alone me being unable to read scribbled handwriting. Having some evidence that side of my family stayed generations enough in Touhoku would be enough for me to consider myself fully Northeastern Japanese, and some Saga or Saitama heritage being as hypotetical as me having some Ainu or Emishi heritage.
Now as for my anti-Japanese feelings... When I was a kid, I could never understand why, being culturally Brazilian in most ways and speaking Portuguese just as well as the rest of the kids, people still labeled me "Japanese". As time went by, I probably understood it was merely based on physical treats, that is, people's superficial judgment based on what they see rather than what I actually am. Most Japanese Brazilian simply accept themselves are Japanese and are even proud of it, even though they speak no Japanese at all or are completely ignorant of the culture. Obviously, only until they go to Japan and get treated as any other foreigner (or even worse, since people there do look down at them for not being able to speak Japanese --it's actually worth mentioning Japanese Gov. in the early 90's started granting easily visas for people from Japanese descent to work there in low skilled jobs 'cos they assumed Japanese descents were culturally closer to Japanese than foreigners and would fit Japanese society more easily... that's how ignorant they were about us!) and realize in fact they're indeed Brazilians with a rather insignificant Japanese background. Bear with me, Japanese Brazilians here in general were so well assimilated that many can't even pronounce their surnames properly! Anyway, I just got over my inferiority feelings during 5th grade, after my grandpa's cousin came all the way from Japan to visit us, and I found out how hard he tried to make his daughters learn some Portuguese. It wasn't until High School when I started learning Standard Japanese. I was interested in modern Japanese pop culture, I used to love Japanese drama, manga, anime and J-POP, and really wanted to go study in Japan (Japanese say their school uniforms are out of fashion, but I've always found them cool), but I guess I was never naivy enough to consider myself Japanese. My attitude towards Japanese went from neutral to very positive back then. Then, during my senior year of High School I learned how to read/write Hangeul alphabet from a classmate, and that Japanese relative for some reason told me to never forget Japanese war crimes throughout Asia. At same time, I got busy with my entrance exams and was forced by my parents to quit Japanese classes. So as my interest for Japan declined, learning more about those awful things screwed it all up and made me have mixed feelings about Japan and Japanese people. Well, all Japanese people are of course not to blame, their stupid Imperial gov. is. Yet, I can't help to feel a little anti-Japanese. I don't hate them, but I can't love them either if you get my point. Anyway, after quitting Japanese I became aware of dialectology and finally stopped looking down at my grandparents' speech. Japanese language policy completely annihilated Japanese dialects (Okay, I'd rather call them languages, but seems like no linguists dare to say many of them are actually separated languages. Mutual intelligibility isn't the best way to separate languages, but it'd indeed not fail if people were to speak pure dialects as some eldery still do.) and Ryukyuan languages. My grandma used to say all the time her Japanese is broken. She couldn't study enough so she can only read a few kanji. Last year, I brought her some Kumon materials from kindergarten level and she soon went into tears for not being able to understand what she read, even though it was all hiragana. However, after I read it aloud she got to understood it. In short, it might sound like functional illiteracy, but I recall in past her reading me children books (all hiragana too), so it probably has also to do with aging (she's turning 85 this year).
Anyway, all that is off-topic here, so sorry
Thanks SimL and Yeleixingfeng. I think I'm beginning to understand a little about Han people presence in S'pore and M'sia. I remember having read long ago about Lee claiming himself as Japanese and even cosplaying, but oh well... If so, he'd be some kind of obsessed otaku or something, just like that guy in his 30s SimL described. o_O
Now as for my anti-Japanese feelings... When I was a kid, I could never understand why, being culturally Brazilian in most ways and speaking Portuguese just as well as the rest of the kids, people still labeled me "Japanese". As time went by, I probably understood it was merely based on physical treats, that is, people's superficial judgment based on what they see rather than what I actually am. Most Japanese Brazilian simply accept themselves are Japanese and are even proud of it, even though they speak no Japanese at all or are completely ignorant of the culture. Obviously, only until they go to Japan and get treated as any other foreigner (or even worse, since people there do look down at them for not being able to speak Japanese --it's actually worth mentioning Japanese Gov. in the early 90's started granting easily visas for people from Japanese descent to work there in low skilled jobs 'cos they assumed Japanese descents were culturally closer to Japanese than foreigners and would fit Japanese society more easily... that's how ignorant they were about us!) and realize in fact they're indeed Brazilians with a rather insignificant Japanese background. Bear with me, Japanese Brazilians here in general were so well assimilated that many can't even pronounce their surnames properly! Anyway, I just got over my inferiority feelings during 5th grade, after my grandpa's cousin came all the way from Japan to visit us, and I found out how hard he tried to make his daughters learn some Portuguese. It wasn't until High School when I started learning Standard Japanese. I was interested in modern Japanese pop culture, I used to love Japanese drama, manga, anime and J-POP, and really wanted to go study in Japan (Japanese say their school uniforms are out of fashion, but I've always found them cool), but I guess I was never naivy enough to consider myself Japanese. My attitude towards Japanese went from neutral to very positive back then. Then, during my senior year of High School I learned how to read/write Hangeul alphabet from a classmate, and that Japanese relative for some reason told me to never forget Japanese war crimes throughout Asia. At same time, I got busy with my entrance exams and was forced by my parents to quit Japanese classes. So as my interest for Japan declined, learning more about those awful things screwed it all up and made me have mixed feelings about Japan and Japanese people. Well, all Japanese people are of course not to blame, their stupid Imperial gov. is. Yet, I can't help to feel a little anti-Japanese. I don't hate them, but I can't love them either if you get my point. Anyway, after quitting Japanese I became aware of dialectology and finally stopped looking down at my grandparents' speech. Japanese language policy completely annihilated Japanese dialects (Okay, I'd rather call them languages, but seems like no linguists dare to say many of them are actually separated languages. Mutual intelligibility isn't the best way to separate languages, but it'd indeed not fail if people were to speak pure dialects as some eldery still do.) and Ryukyuan languages. My grandma used to say all the time her Japanese is broken. She couldn't study enough so she can only read a few kanji. Last year, I brought her some Kumon materials from kindergarten level and she soon went into tears for not being able to understand what she read, even though it was all hiragana. However, after I read it aloud she got to understood it. In short, it might sound like functional illiteracy, but I recall in past her reading me children books (all hiragana too), so it probably has also to do with aging (she's turning 85 this year).
Well, makes sense, since Mandarin wasn't native to Taiwanese after all. Just like Japanese language Taiwanese people spoke was much more Standard than that spoken in many parts of Japan in the same period (it was perhaps during that time when Japanese government supressed Japanese dialects, advised teachers correct kids or even punish them for speaking in dialect at school).The Taiwanese pronunciation of Mandarin is much more acceptable than the Shishashishaws of Beijing.
Anyway, all that is off-topic here, so sorry
Thanks SimL and Yeleixingfeng. I think I'm beginning to understand a little about Han people presence in S'pore and M'sia. I remember having read long ago about Lee claiming himself as Japanese and even cosplaying, but oh well... If so, he'd be some kind of obsessed otaku or something, just like that guy in his 30s SimL described. o_O
I always thought Zhuyin was used in China as well up to the half of last century. Anyway, pardon my ignorance about Chinese cultural aspects, sounds like PRC was a huge cultural breakaway from the rest of Chinese communities. I really need to read more about it.The much more accurate Sinitic phonetics 註音 (Zhuyin) emerged due to inspiration from the Japanese kana too, rumour has it.
Well, I remember going shopping with my mom at a Japanese district (nowadays some kind of Chinatown with nearly no Japanese shops or Japanese people living there) and hearing a few kids speaking Japanese, and me trying to show off I could speak Portuguese instead. Dumb me. I always tried hard to minimize every trace of Japan or Asia on myself. I totally failed, as I remember during my High School days getting all depressed about not fitting Brazilian way of being (most Brazilians aren't what I'd call politically correct in many ways, and that often goes against my own values) and really willing to get outta here. I'm not Japanese, but I'm not Brazilian either. I'm just me, d'oh...Perhaps someone like FutureSpy shares some of these aspects with me too. My own life history has made me very interested in the subject of "identity" - how does one identify and label oneself, why does one choose the specific labels that one does, etc.
Sounds pretty much like me trying to act as Brazilian as I could and yet being called "Japanese". Anyway, from what I write here you might end up creating a biased view of Brazilians. Anyway, there's this Hokkien Australian guy friend of a friend of mine who seems to dislike everything Chinese (Hokkien included). At first he told me he was from Malay descent (despite him looking the typical Hokkien). He only confirmed it after I asked him about it being Chinese Malaysian. So yes, he's Australian... Is it just me or seems like that's getting at least a little more usual in S'pore? Any examples like that in M'sia as well? Does Chinese Malaysian people consider themselves "Chinese"?From another point of view (i.e. a "positive" one), I personally believe that an East Asian can fit in and be accepted in the US, Australia or New Zealand to a far greater extent than a white person could in the PRC, Taiwan, Japan or S. Korea. My parents migrated to Australia in their 40's, and yet are quite happy (and "proud") to call themselves "Australian" (and felt that within 5-10 years of moving there). I wonder if a white person could feel himself/herself as easily accepted after even 20 years living in Taiwan, Japan, etc. I.e. would they be able to say "Yes, I'm Chinese", "Yes, I'm Taiwanese". I think the answer is "no".
Makes sense. So perhaps calling Hokkien "Taiwanese" was also something introduced by the Japanese.a "locophilic" attitude instilled in "Japanese times".
What's Chinese culture like nowadays in China? Sorry for my ignorance...I would tend to think that the Cultural Revolution and other Neo-Chinese (PRC) policies are what killed Chinese culture in China, not the movements of the Republican era.
Last edited by FutureSpy on Mon Apr 30, 2012 2:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.