Philippine Hokkien

[casey]

Yes, it is indeed confusing with two different systems.
However, my previous posting referes to the various exchanges with Wng on intonation. Different intonation does not necessarily mean different tone number.

[hong]

The thing is I don't think we can use glossika minnan tone table because there are no special tone for nan an, quanzhou city with very high yin shang for these two.zhangpu has very high yangshang,etc.I need to listen to Nan Am people for the correct tone for yin shang 524
We need to use that online book written by Lim

[casey]

Even though the glossika tone table may not be perfect or complete it does have a few tone sets for each main sub-group (Cuanciu, Ciangciu, or Emng). For instance, we may think that tone 1 (阴平) in Emng has a pitch of 55, so all tones with 55 are tone 1. No, it is not the case. In one of the Cuanciu set of tones, the tone with pitch 55 is tone 2 (阴上). Therefore in the examples of gua2 and he2 (or her2 as Niuc pronounces it), even with the pitch 55 in both cases they are still having the tone number of tone2 (阴上) because they are pronounced in the Cuanciu accent, not the Emng accent. Previous discussions in this thread seemed to be like this. This is why I cautioned all of us to be more careful and not to be confused.

[hong]

I should say zhangpu has very high yangping tone.That is why I say we need CD audio for correct chuanchiu sects and chiangchiu sects from China.We cannot use taiwanese books and tapes for this purpose.
The best way is travel to china to find out how our own sect people speak thier tones.,then check with books from china.

[casey]

I thought the yangping tone for Zhangpu is just like that for Zhangzhou, the low 12 pitch, compared with that for Emng, 24 pitch.

[hong]

It looks like yangping for Hua an,shao an 242 and zhangpu 323.Glossika did put one zhangzhou sect 1b as 323 but without name.
http://www.fjsq.gov.cn/ShowText.asp?ToBook=27&index=215&
I always thought that Lin Baoqing who wrote above section is a lady but he is a man.

[casey]

Thanks for the info. I knew a Zhangpu friend who pronounced yangping at 12 or 13, more like those described in the table for Zhangzhou and Longhai. His home town was near the border with Longhai. Maybe that's why. But he had never heard a yangping pitch of 323. Probably it is used in Sui-an the county capital, and the southern part of Zhangpu. Anyway, it is very interesting to note with a municipality of Zhangzhou itself, there are so many varieties of language intonation.

[wng]

Thank you everyone, especially to Casey. You've cleared up my confusion. I confirmed from most of the online resources that we indeed use the Cuanciu accent (or close to that area) here in the Philippines. Most pronunciations (especially the vowels) have started to change to be more similar to Emng but the tones used are definitely from the Cuanciu varieties.

Tone 2 (yinshang) is pronounced with a high level tone in our dialect and this got me confused until Casey cleared the thing up. I also clarified that the 3/7 distinction is a more complicated problem for us here. There is actually no tone 7 (or yangqu) in Cuanciu but there is a tone 6 (yangshang)! Tone 7 in Emng mostly either become tone 3 (yinqu) or tone 6 (yangshang) in Cuanciu but I still cannot figure out the pattern for this one (which ones go to tone 3 and which ones go to tone 7) except through experience.

Is there a romanization system that is good for the Cuanciu dialect? I have learned Pehoeji but it is difficult for me to determine the tones (especially tone 7) because it is different from how I pronounce the characters.

[hong]

Hi wng,
You didn't read above books from China.
The chuanchiu dialect is not one school but a few sects with own its own tones. See the above modern jinjiang,yongchun,shishi and huian are without yangshang and yangqu(6 and 7 or 4 and 6 in books above).Others like nanan,anxi,quanzhou city and dehua are only without yangqu 7.
You say your chuanchiu is with high yinshang but I don't think it is as high as Nanan and quanzhou city.
Each book with its own rominization system and tone mark.I cann;t see which one is better.Books from Taiwan are not helpful for us to learn correct tones and vocabulary.

[hong]

Prof.Huang of china did say 400 years ago chuanchiu has 8 tones but in last one hundred years some chuanchiu sect have only 6 tones.
I don't have Tongan yunshu written in qing period which might be saying tong an/jinmen have 6th tone(yangshang) like other chuanchiu sects.