HO̍KLÓ, HO̍HLÓ, HŌLÓ

Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
Locked
amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: HO̍KLÓ, HO̍HLÓ, HŌLÓ

Post by amhoanna »

Hokkien makes better use of its own resources.

Just because creole languages (n.b. distinguish from pidgins) have a smaller base vocabulary, people tend to look down on them or consider them easier, but they forget that everything can be expressed in these languages, even the individual words do not exist.
Totally agree! Creoles do it better. They make U move your mind. As long as the "creolees" don't short-circuit themselves and start sucking ten-cent loanwords in through a boba straw. :mrgreen: Not sure if "Country Cantonese" is really "that bad"...

Then again, maybe there's something about Homo sapiens, something almost biological, that makes us look down on the smooth, lean elegance of a creole?

One last thing. I still think Straits Hokkien is easier to learn to use than "original Hokkien". I will even guess that it's easier to master than original Hokkien. Just as many tough nuances are right there in original Hokkien too... Along with way more exceptions that make no sense, and more vocab, etc. I think this actually makes Straits Hokkien more compelling. It seems "extra-human". It was "built for communication". Hopefully the Hoklo Renaissance will take that route. 8)
niuc
Posts: 734
Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 3:23 pm
Location: Singapore

Re: HO̍KLÓ, HO̍HLÓ, HŌLÓ

Post by niuc »

Yeleixingfeng wrote: ... 桌頂 for toh-teng - a random request of the teacher, she snorted by saying that is Chinese, not Hokkien. She wants me to represent Hokkien in "Hokkien script".
Though in many contexts the term Chinese means Mandarin, but in context like this I think we can argue that Chinese is not limited to Mandarin, and 漢字 is not merely "Mandarin script".
Ah-bin wrote: Unfortunately Chinese "fangyan" is not quite so democratic, and usually excludes the state "language".
My impression, not sure how accurate, is that we can call Mandarin a 方言 "fangyan", or at least saying that 國語/普通話 is actually from 北京方言. Or am I wrong?
amhoanna wrote: Is it possible that hoé for FIRE won out over hé b/c it's more similar to the Mandarin? U heard it here first. :mrgreen:
Good analysis, lets see! :mrgreen: Does it mean that generally speaking, Ciangciu pronunciations are closer to Mandarin?
There are lots of middle-aged (not old) people in M'sia/Sg that speak "deep-variant" Hokkien, right? Take for example the loan shark in MONEY NO ENOUGH (Jack Neo). He was speaking pretty deep Hokkien, right? Or maybe he just fooled this non-native?
Not too many, if my impression is correct. Yet may be due to work environment etc, those I know mostly speak Mandarin.
An interesting appendix to this thread would be something I saw on the same site that hosts the Tai-Hoa dictionary: a Hokkien POJ math textbook from a hundred-odd yrs ago. It was printed in Amoy or around there. All the math terminology was pure, original, uncut Hokkien. Even the examples in the book had a Hoklospheric slant, like if a certain ship travels at a certain speed, and the distance from Ēmn̂g to "Pin'nn̂gsū" is however much, then how many days will it take the ship to arrive?
Wow, great! So there was textbook, even math, in Hokkien! With the centralization, I guess even now the Mandarin textbooks hardly mention about 廈門. Taiwanese mostly know the history of China (Mainland) instead of Taiwan, right? In Indonesian history books, we learned about empires of Srivijaya, Majapahit and many Javanese kingdoms, but hardly about Riau or Kalimantan or eastern provinces.
Ah-bin wrote: "cho chhan e lang" = farmer Cantonese and Amoy Hokkien prefer their versions of 農夫 農民, but I bet "cho chhan e" is what ordinary Hoklo speakers were saying 200 years ago, and Cantonese and Mandarin used to say it differently too.
We heard both in Bagansiapiapi, but it seems that the former is indeed the ordinary one.
Just because creole languages (n.b. distinguish from pidgins) have a smaller base vocabulary, people tend to look down on them or consider them easier, but they forget that everything can be expressed in these languages, even the individual words do not exist. Why does Hokkien have to have a word for "accommodation"? when "koe ME e ui" does just as well (and in fewer syllables)?
The problem with Hokkien-Teochew spoken in Singapore now is that lots of people just use Mandarin or English terms. So most would just say "accommodation" and not even "koe ME e ui". [Btw is this still considered a creole?] This is why most think that Hokkien is outdated and incapable of expressing lots of things.
amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: HO̍KLÓ, HO̍HLÓ, HŌLÓ

Post by amhoanna »

Does it mean that generally speaking, Ciangciu pronunciations are closer to Mandarin?
I think it has something to do with the Sinification of Ciangciu. It happened in Tn̂g times. There was input from local "Hans" (Coânciu lâng, if U will) as well as Hans from points north. The resulting dialect was a step closer to the Tn̂g koine than Coânciu was. And the Tn̂g koine is the mother of the Hoklo literary layer. This Tn̂g koine happens to be closer to Mandarin than pre-Tn̂g Hoklo elements are (to Mandarin).

Take 地 EARTH for example. The Ciangciu pronunciation is tē in all cases, but in Coânciu it's tē in the literary layer, but toē (right?) in the colloquial.

...

TW Hoklo also has cohsitlâng alongside cohchânlâng / cohchân--ê, plus literary lôngbîn.

I'll have to look for the math textbook sometime... It's really interesting to look at, and to think about the kinds of people that wrote it and used it.
With the centralization, I guess even now the Mandarin textbooks hardly mention about 廈門.
People everywhere need to assert themselves in their own history. Hanoi has lots of stories, Amoy less stories, and Cyhoi (Zhuhai) hardly any. And we get the "New Chinese" myth that if U just build the right buildings and roads, the city will happen. And, it always surprises me how Hokkien geography doesn't play any part in Hoklo folklore. As for the situation in TW, it's sad indeed.
Ah-bin
Posts: 830
Joined: Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:10 am
Location: Somewhere in the Hokloverse

Re: HO̍KLÓ, HO̍HLÓ, HŌLÓ

Post by Ah-bin »

My impression, not sure how accurate, is that we can call Mandarin a 方言 "fangyan", or at least saying that 國語/普通話 is actually from 北京方言. Or am I wrong?
We can, of course, but PRC scholars either don't (or aren't allowed to) call 普通話 "fangyan" for them is is always 語言 and "fangyan" is used for any related. Only in Chinese translations of English books like Trudgill's "Sociolinguistics" actually point out that a dialect is "any variation of a language", not just a non-standardised or localised one, but any prestige version or standardised version as well.

One last thing. I still think Straits Hokkien is easier to learn to use than "original Hokkien". I will even guess that it's easier to master than original Hokkien. Just as many tough nuances are right there in original Hokkien too... Along with way more exceptions that make no sense, and more vocab, etc. I think this actually makes Straits Hokkien more compelling. It seems "extra-human". It was "built for communication". Hopefully the Hoklo Renaissance will take that route. 8)
Ah well, if you explain it like that, I don't think I can really disagree!
Mark Yong
Posts: 684
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 3:52 pm

Re: HO̍KLÓ, HO̍HLÓ, HŌLÓ

Post by Mark Yong »

Yeleixingfeng wrote:
By the way, Mark, why do you say that the grammar of Hokkien is more different from Mandarin than Cantonese?
I gave my original post a bit more thought, and realised that I might have made an incorrect statement there. The relative-bigger difference between Hokkien and Mandarin vs. between Cantonese and Mandarin is lexical, not so much grammatical. We already have a plethora of examples in the literature and throughout this Forum, so I shall avail myself of listing any examples! :lol:

My bad, I was trying to paraphrase Jerry Norman's book "Chinese" without actually having the book in front of me! :oops: Anyway, to put things in proper context, I dug out the citation online, it reads:
"In the mountainous areas of Fujian and Guangdong, the Old Southern Chinese element has survived to a greater degree, to the maximum extent in Min, somewhat less so in Kejia, and only vestigially in Yue." (Norman 1988:214)
amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: HO̍KLÓ, HO̍HLÓ, HŌLÓ

Post by amhoanna »

Interesting. I thought words like 企 STAND, 走 RUN, 行 WALK, etc. were "Old Southern Chinese". And these are shared all up and down this coast.
Mark Yong
Posts: 684
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 3:52 pm

Re: HO̍KLÓ, HO̍HLÓ, HŌLÓ

Post by Mark Yong »

amhoanna wrote:
...企 STAND...
Um, I believe that would be . 《廣韻》渠綺切,音技。立也。
Yeleixingfeng
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2011 12:50 am

Re: HO̍KLÓ, HO̍HLÓ, HŌLÓ

Post by Yeleixingfeng »

I think I am the only supporting otherwise. >.< Anyway, I am going to state my point. Please, I hope you all can read through open-mindedly before deciding to disagree. Thanks. ^^

I don't really agree to your opinion (the general opinion of this forum) about Hokkien having less vocabulary is more advantageous than languages with a broader vocabulary.
*Really, I don't mean to be showy, but..* As shown in Oracle Bone Script, Chinese was originally a language with really few vocabulary, and complicated ideas were connoted by piling together the simple ideas that consists the complicated one. That was why Oracle Bone Scripts were never confined to a box-space, and was quite loose and "not-organised" - that was because the then scripts do not abide the common definition of a Hanji. Yet, soon they stuck to their individual form and the consisting components do not run free as 'simple vocabulary' anymore. For example, take the Hok for Hokkien, 福. The right part is a vase-like food container, and the left means divine (It was actually an altar).The meaning was coined like how Hokkien coin new terms, by combining existing vocabulary - vase-like food container (most probably filled with food) from the gods. Nonetheless, after Oracle Bone, the form stabilised to mean blessing/prosperity. A new single pronunciation was given, and it was treated like a new vocabulary, no longer an idea represented by smaller elements.

I believe there was a reason for this.

All successful languages grow from simple to complex. Take Japanese for example. Their colloquial pronunciation for silver is shirogane (white metal), yet why do they still absorb gin as one of the main readings for 銀? The coinage of shirogane obviously resembles Hokkien, using existing ideas to mean a new thing, but when more complex ideas concerning silver emerge, like the bank, they resort to gin as the pronunciation for 銀 in 銀行. According to the usual Japanese habit of referring to things, *my Japanese is not really good, sorry. Haha* to fully pronounce 'bank' in their colloquial reading would be something like shirogane wo suru tokoro (白金をするところ) [the place where white metals are dealt with]. Notice I used 'dealt with' to omit the more complicated concept 'calculated' or 'kept', which means the string of words might get even more complicated. Obviously, ginkou is better, despite having to memorise yet another vocabulary.

The condition with Hokkien is quite similar to Japanese, in that the existing, fully-local vocabulary is not enough to name all things efficiently. How can Hokkien grow to become an important, international language, when most of its vocabulary derive directly from one another. Of course, I do not oppose of 會出聲會出映仒電機器 (e chut sia e chut eng e ten ki khi) in colloquial speech to mean television. (The string of Hokkien is meant to be humorously exaggerated. Of course, no one says that.) No doubt, it is easy to learn, and its coinage is unique. Yet, also undoubtedly, in writing 會出聲會出映仒電機器 is simply too long and too inconvenient than 電視機 - which itself I also, to a very much lesser extent, don't quite agree with, since it is just an abbreviated version of the mentioned method of coining terms.

You might argue that my example is too long, thus is irrelevant. Now consider, what makes up the long string of words? Take 機器 for some illustration. Literally, it means mechanical utensil. Why can't a new character be invented for this frequently mentioned idea? English had created a new word - machine for 機器. And, for television, English took tele- and -vision, instead of far-see which is comparable to the Hokkien-style of naming. In other words, their affixes are not commonly used in colloquial speech, such that even the original prefix 'telly' itself would be enough to mean television without anyone thinking about some faraway land.

The Sinitic languages are fortunate to be monosyllabic, but if we continue to rely on this advantage, undeniably, soon Chinese would evolve to become the most long-winded language on Earth, Hokkien included.

Do you agree?
amhoanna
Posts: 912
Joined: Sat Sep 18, 2010 12:43 pm

Re: HO̍KLÓ, HO̍HLÓ, HŌLÓ

Post by amhoanna »

夜雷星蜂, I think I'm coming at all this from a different angle than U. That's why I partly disagree. For me, this is personal, so, "Don't mind me." As I mentioned, or speculated, it's like mankind has a gene that makes well-fed specimens look down on creoles and creole-like tongues. Lower-class folk speak them, middle-class folk despise them, and working-class people work their butts off so their kids can stop swearing in them. Let's take the lingua franca of this forum: English. American Black English -- one of my "childhood dialects" -- just has this groove, this "hustle and flow". It's raw and direct even when it ain't crude, like a fine-tuned yen for sex. It's got so much rhythm U can touch it. It's so "there" that U can move it to your kitchen and eat on it. U can pull it down out of the air and chop wood with it. No mistake it's the language of hip-hop and the blues and the rhythm-and-blues. Even rock and pop speaks a sister dialect. Yet Black English is ostracized from print media and much of the economic life of the English-speaking world ... in favor of Suburban Cubicle English with its big words, set phrases, and set sentences.

If all this is true for Black English, it's ten times truer for the "somehow related" "real" creoles like Jamaican Patois, Gullah, Trinidadian Creole...

Let's take almost any paragraph here on this forum. Then imagine having to get the same points across, but w/o words like "historically" or "deficient". For better or worse, it would make us have to think harder and think clearer, in order to get our points across. Words like "historically" may be "precise", but they tempt us to use them in imprecise ways. Creoles may lack such precise, intellectual words, but in turn they take a dialog and tie it back to sun and stars and wine and dine. The way we were. And in the end we still get there if we try to "say it in creole". It's the stereotypical social sciences academics -- stereotypical! -- that spend decades of their life using big, used-to-be-precise words to say and prove a whole lot of nothing. Say it like U mean it! Social science degree candidates should all have to learn a creole... :lol:

Links between the words in a language... That is key, from a writer's POV. Take the word phoekoán. Great links to phoe and koán. Lu̍t'sukoán? Again, good links. So why iûkio̍k and lu̍t'su sūbūsó͘? Bô hoeh bô ba̍ksái. What if they all co-existed? That's the state that bahasa Indonesia is in, I think... It does allow for many styles.

Back to Black English, or maybe not. What I've found in my time in the Caribbean is that there's a Black Spanish too. Just like Black English in North America, it's an "Africated" form of a European language... It tends toward short words, heavy rhythms, common words in fresh combinations, and lots of visuals... And it's spoken by all working-class Spanish-speaking Caribbeans, be they blue-black or snow-white. And in every port city and country town U've got the wannabe Europeans wringing their hands and going on about how 80% of the people around them don't know how to talk, and how they hate reggaeton, and how people should name their babies Josefina or Anamaría instead of Yudisleidis or Yesenia. Whatever! Give me that saltwater santero Spanish any day of the week.

Back to our regular programming. Have U guys watched a made-in-Taiwan Hoklo soap opera lately? Is there a single actor under 40 that sounds like they speak Hoklo in real life? In fact one time last yr at the end of an episode, there was a flash-forward to a future episode -- it could've been an out-take, actually -- where a chick in a wedding dress slips and falls in a basement parking lot and says something in Mandarin like, Aiyo, hao tong! Possibly the most convincing Hoklo soap moment of the year!

To sum up, and get back on-topic... I mean, yeah, I think it's great to have lots of vocabulary in a language, unless U're an adult learner. :mrgreen: Imagine -- I mean, imagine -- if somehow there was a mass Speak Hoklo and Write Hoklo movement, starting with pissed-off Singaporeans and TWese who feel that their gahmens robbed them of their language, and somehow this movement stuck, and spread, leading to Hoklo education, Hoklo mass media, and a Hoklo netscape. Now imagine if the new Hoklo idiom were to take in words and expressions from every kind of Hoklo we discuss on this forum, and others. Imagine if TWese could understand PgHK the same way an Australian understands a Black North American, and if Kuching Hoklophones borrowed words from Medan, and if all Hokkien speakers had hundreds of Teochew words in their vocab for dealing with fine emotional or logical nuances...

Let it be organic. Let it be from the bottom up. Most of all, let it be expressive. Let it be like the aLians on their aLian blogs instead of the wish-I-wasn't-here 32-year-olds on 21st century white-collar Hoklo telenovelas.
Mark Yong
Posts: 684
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 3:52 pm

Re: HO̍KLÓ, HO̍HLÓ, HŌLÓ

Post by Mark Yong »

Yeleixingfeng wrote:
I think Hokkien needs a new grammar system. Maybe the grammar of Classical could be fully used to construct this new polite language. For example, using 矣 instead of 了. Hokkien is already lexically so close to Classical, why hesitate?
Since you brought up the subject of Hokkien's lexical closeness to Classical Chinese, you might want to pick up a copy of 《閩南方言與古漢語同源詞典》 by 林寶卿. I think it costs less than RM30 at the 學林書局 at Jalan Silang, KL. While I do not necessarily agree with all of the 本字 she proposed, some of it makes good sense, and it has examples that tie back to Classical texts.

Another nice book that Ah-bin was kind enough to donate to me, is 《閩台方言的源流與嬗變》 by 馬重奇. I like his argument on 查甫 for ta-pO (man).
Locked