About "bochap"

[Sim]

Hi Niuc,

>> 1. one pot of flowers = 一盆花 'cit8 phun5 hue1'
>> 2. one living flower = 一[抱]花 'cit8 pho7 hue1'
>> ('cang5' can be used here. the character for 'pho7' is just an assumption)
>> 3. one bundle of flowers = 一束花 'cit8 sok4 hue1'

This prompted me to think about my count words for flowers. My usage is slightly different.

1. I agree with this one, but I feel that this is more just because the flowers are in a pot, than because "phun" is a natural count word for flowers..., e.g.:

... a) If they were in a bucket, I would say "cit thang2 hua".
... b) If they were in a bottle (e.g. preserved in olive oil), I would say "cit kuan3 hua".
... c) If they were on a plate, I would say "cit pua*5 hua".

I quote the non-sandhi forms of thang2, kuan3, pua*5. Perhaps that's the reason I hesitate between sandhi and non-sandhi forms in the pronunciation - because it's not really a fixed combination, just one put together for that particular occasion. To me, both sandhi and non-sandhi forms seem ok here.

2. Here is where I differ radically from you.

My distinction is between a bunch (e.g. above) and an *individual* flower. For the latter, the one and only word I can use is lui2. As in cit, nO, sa*, si, ... lui1 hua1.

Basically, it doesn't matter if the flower is living or dead. If it's an individual flower, then it's lui. In those modern flower arrangements with dried flowers, each of the individual flowers I would still call "lui". And it doesn't matter where the flower is either: still on the plant, plucked and in a vase, floating in a bowl of water, pinned into a woman's hair-do, on a dress, like a corsage etc.

One important aspect of "lui2" for me is that it emphasies the "round-bit" at the end - the "head" as it were. I would use this word even if there was a long stem coming off it (e.g. on a long-stemmed rose), but when I say "lui", I'm thinking more of the round-bit at the top / end, than of the stem.

This gives a bit of problem with a gladiolus, where one has a long, green, fleshy stem with about 12-20 minor flowers coming off it. The individual minor flowers are too insignificant to form a "lui" (and would never be sold / handled that way, so there's less need to talk about them), but the whole stem plus individual minor flowers doesn't have a round-bit. So I don't know what classifier I would use for a single gladiolus stem. [ But, now that I think about it, this is a problem in English too - it's not at all clear what *one* gladiolus is !!! ]

I could never ever use "cang" for a single flower, because for me "cang" has to be more or less the whole plant, whereas an individual flower, almost by definition, is separated from the plant, and *isn't* the plant itself.

3. I am unfamiliar with the term "sok4" 束.

If I had to say a bundle, I think I would say "tui1", but I'm not sure. What I *am* sure of is that bundles of *vegetables* in a traditional market (tied around the middle with a piece of brown, flexible "straw" (was this called "kiam chau"?)) were called "pE2". But this I would never use for flowers. Basically, a "pE2" has all the stems lined up parallel to one another, and is a method of packaging (some) green leafy vegetables, or beans (i.e., long green beans, in the pod, not individual beans!).

If they were a handfull of flowers, I would say "cit phong2".

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I'm sorry I can't give the definitions or descriptions of "siEn3 ciu0 i2" or "cin1-cue3" as individual words. This is what happens when people like us (English-educated Babas) speak a "de-based" form of the language, and are illiterate in it. The words are just complete, polysyllabic words for us, and we have no idea what the components mean. There are hundreds of compounds I know, for which I have NO IDEA what the individual components mean (some examples: "bin3-cng5" for "bed", "pa3-ciah4" for "back" (body part), "ka3-cuah1" for "cockroach").

By co-incidence, I came across a photograph of two "siEn3 ciu0 i2" just recently posted on the internet:

http://penangtalk.com/cgi-bin/anyboard. ... aO=1&iWz=0

They're the two objects at the very back of the room, against the wall. Perhaps they are called something else in Standard Hokkien.

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>> 二九 'ji7 kau2 mi5' / 二九漫 'ji7 kau2 bin3 hng1'

Interesting. I call it "ji7 kau1 E3 hui*1". Again, no idea what "E" is, or what its non-sandhi tone would be.


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BTW, tip for other posters: putting "<" before the first character of a link and ">" after the last makes the link clickable directly for readers. I think this is very useful...

Cheers,
Sim.

[%sig%]

[Andrew Yong]

E7-hui*1 means evening and is written 下昏. Strangely in Penang we say E7-pO1, E7-hui*1, etc. but e7-te2, etc.

I call it ji7 kau2 mE*5 二九?

andrew

[kaiah]

Sin ni khuai lok to everyone!
Hi Sim, I never heard of "cin1 cue3", but I looked up "chin-choe"(don't forget the hyphen) by "台語羅馬字無聲調"(without tone) in this site: http://203.64.42.21/iug/Ungian/SoannTen ... Taihoa.asp and obtain this: "chìn-chòe 進贅(Hokkien hanji) 入贅/招贅/贅婿(Mandarin)"(chìn-chòe=cin3 cue3). I think it may be what you say.
I looked up "進贅" by google and found that most "進贅" is related to Hokkien culture, such as this: http://www.etravel.net.cn/chinese/dongf ... hyxu12.htm

"入贅(ru4 zhui4)"(to become a son-in-law who lives in the wife's home) in our usage is "ho'7 lang5 cio1"(互人招).

[Niuc]

Hi all,

May you all have a happy Chinese New Year celebration

Sim, 盆 'phun5' indeed means "pot", and for me it sounds natural to say 一盆花 'cit8 phun5 hue1'. So far I have never heard of 桶 'thang2', 罐 'kuan3' & 盤 'pua*5' as count words for flowers. But I do agree with you that 一罐花 'cit8 kuan3 hue1' tends to mean that the flowers are preserved, or at least detached from the plants. For me, 'thang2' & 'pua*5' also tend to signify that the flowers are detached.

Our usage of 'lui2'/'nui2'/'ni2' {蕊 / 朵} practically is identical to yours. It means the flower ("head"), not the plant. About gladiolus (and edelweiss, lavender, etc), we count each individual flower as 'ni2'.

May be I didn't state it clearly that we use 'pho7' & 'cang5' to count the whole flower plant as an entity, regardless of how many flower "heads" it has.

堆 'tui1' for us means one pile, a lot of. We also call one bundle of vegetable 一把 'cit8 pe4' . And we also call that kind of "straw" 'kiam5 chau2' {鹹草?}. I am not familiar with 'phong2'.

Andrew is right that 'e7-hui*1' is written as 下昏; 'e7 hng1' in our accent. 'e7' means "down", "lower", "descend", etc. 'hng1' means "dusk".
'bin5 chng5' is 眠床, 'bin5' = sleep, 'chng5' = bed.
'pa3-ciah4' is 'ka1 cia4' in ours (don't know the character for 'ka1', 'cia4' should be 脊).
'ka1 cua8': I don't know how to input the characters I read in some newspapers. Some linguistics say that this word is not of Sinitic origin.
'e7 po`1' is 下晡. 'po`1' = 3pm to 5pm.
I have never heard of 'e7 te2'. What does 'te2' mean?

Kaiah, nice to hear from you again. O, 'cin3 cue3' is 進贅...I didn't know it before. We also call it 'ho`7 lang5 cio1' (互人招), 'ho`7 lang5 cio1 kia*2 sai3' (互人招子婿).

[%sig%]

[Andrew Yong]

e7-te2 is 下底, bottom. Some people say E7-te2, but I think e7-te2 is more common. Sim, can you confirm?

andrew

[Sim]

Hi Andrew,

>> Some people say E7-te2, but I think e7-te2 is more common.

Yes, most definitely.

I myself say "e-te", and would not have thought anyone else would have said anything else until this discussion came up. Now, being forced to think about it: "E-te" doesn't sound totally wrong to me , so I may or may not notice anything "strange" if someone said "E-te" to me in Penang, but still I don't think it's a very common form.

Cheers,
Sim.

[%sig%]

[Sim]

Kaiah,

Thanks very much for these two links. Unfortunately I can't read characters. Still, I've saved them (I always save valuable information, in case the site or page disappears), and I'll try and get someone who reads characters to help me with what they say.

Cheers,
Sim.

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[Niuc]

Thank you, Andrew

I misunderstood 'e7 te2' as a synonym for 'e7 hng1'. Now it's clear that it means "bottom", in our accent 下底 is pronounced as 'e7 tue2'.

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[Rini]

Hi Sim,

I'm kinda bored when all my frenz speaks hokkien fluently but at the end of the day, I don't really understand what they are talking about. It's just that whenever I ask them, they will translate bit by bit.

However, is Hokkien language difficult to learn or understand? Maybe, if I know the basic, that might be good already. If you can assist me to at least have a chance to speak and understand Hokkien, I would really appreciate it. If you could prepare for me a list of some basic words (everyday language)....that might be good.

Examples:

1) where r u going?
2) wat r u saying/talking?
3) can i join?

[%sig%]

[Sim]

Hi Rini,

Welcome to the Forum. Always nice to have new readers.

Where are you located? Are you living in a Hokkien speaking area? If so, then you should probably try to learn the same type ("accent") of Hokkien as that of the people around you. If on the other hand you live in the US or England or Australia, and just happen to have lots of Hokkien speaking friends, then a slightly different accent probably doesn't matter so much.

Having said that, I also need to say that I think I'm very unsuitable as the person to try and teach you Hokkien.
1) My own Hokkien is quite poor, with a lot of English and Malay words, and lots of things I don't know how to say.
2) My accent is from Penang, in Malaysia, and it is quite obscure (see other postings on this forum).

But, to answer your questions (within the imitations above)

>> 1) where r u going?
lu1 be1 khi3 to1-loh1 [ literally, 'you want go where'. ]

>> 2) wat r u saying/talking?
lu1 ti1 kOng2 ha1-mih1 [ literally, 'you (present continuous marker) say what'. ]

>> 3) can i join?
[ Not sure, depends on context. 'ua1 e4-sai1 lai5 ka1 lu2 (/lu1-lang5) be4', literally, 'am I permitted to come with you (people)', idiomatically 'may I come with you (/ you people)'. ]

But this would look quite different in the Taiwanese / Amoy variant.

Anyway, it's very difficult to learn a language from the Internet (especially here, as there are no soundfiles for you to hear how the words should sound), so you're better off trying to get your friends to teach you (not a very good anyway, because this often doesn't work), or doing a course. I'm told that such courses are given in Taiwan, and (I believe) two US universities had units in "Taiwanese".

[%sig%]