Andrew,
Thanks for this detailed explanation. I'll have to print it out and study it, and also look at the Glossika page again.
For the moment, thanks.
Sim.
"Busybody" in Hokkien
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Niuc
Re: "Busybody" in Hokkien
Andrew, thanks for the info about ‘ts’ & ‘ch’ & Pinyin ‘j’ & ‘z’. Regarding one letter for one sound, I am a supporter 
but there are some problems caused by limitation of our keyboard. It’s not convenient to type letters with diacritics. Actually I would like to write ‘ou’ as ‘w’, ‘er’ as ‘r’, ‘ng’ as ‘q’ but it seems confusing for those who are not accustomed to it.
Casey, thanks for your info and also your compliment for Tang-ua* accent. In the literal sense of the word ‘mother tongue’, yours is Ciangciu. Which dialect/accent of Hokkien do you usually use?
Could you please tell more about in what sense you find Cuanciu accent more musical than E-mng & Ciangciu? Is it because tones in Cuanciu accent are pronounced more clearly? I don’t know if you’ve heard any conversation in Tang-ua* dialect. From my experience, many people who speak other Hokkien dialects (especially Penang/Medan, but also An-khue) commented that our Tang-ua* accent was very ‘heavy’ (重 tang7) i.e. the tones are of lower pitch & clearly stressed. Tones in Penang/Medan [& Ciangciu ?] accent are usually of higher pitch compared to Cuanciu (Ankhue, Lam-ua*, Tang-ua* etc). Of course, tone pitch in Tiociu are even higher, probably the highest [of Minnan]. Many say that speaking Tiociu is like singing. I think that Cuanciu accent have more vowel sounds and clearer pronounciation but tone pitch are comparably lower & stressed [hence clearer]. Some people like higher pitch & some lower, both should be ok.
Thanks for confirming that hanji for ‘ke1 pou5’ is 家婆. Kaiah also uses these characters in another forum http://chinese.cari.com.my/forum/viewth ... d=uI27g0dN . Then the interesting question is: why it is also pronounced as ‘ke1 pou5’ in Ciangciu/Penang, instead of ‘kae1 pou5’/‘kE1 pou5’?
The dictionary you mentioned seems very good, I’ll try to get one. If possible, could you explain more about 十五韻 "15 rhymes”? Although may not up to date, one of the advantages of old dictionaries (e.g. Douglas’ dictionary, more than 100 years) is that they tell us how the language was like at the time. It’s possible that foreign (including ‘ang5 mo5’) linguists may perceive Hokkien (or any language) a bit different from native speakers. Nonetheless many of their works are very impressive & useful.
It’s a Cuanciu dialect feature that “j” merged into “l”. 廈門方言詞典 records that younger generation in E-mng usually use “l” for “j”. In Tang-ua* dialect, sometimes “l” for those with “j” in Ciangciu dialect are pronounced like “d” (IPA, not Pinyin). This page http://chinese.cari.com.my/forum/viewth ... d=uI27g0dN mentions about “j” as Ciangciu sound. This page http://olddoc.tmu.edu.tw/chiaushin/marker.htm mentions about “j”->”l”->”d”.
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but there are some problems caused by limitation of our keyboard. It’s not convenient to type letters with diacritics. Actually I would like to write ‘ou’ as ‘w’, ‘er’ as ‘r’, ‘ng’ as ‘q’ but it seems confusing for those who are not accustomed to it. Casey, thanks for your info and also your compliment for Tang-ua* accent. In the literal sense of the word ‘mother tongue’, yours is Ciangciu
. Which dialect/accent of Hokkien do you usually use? Could you please tell more about in what sense you find Cuanciu accent more musical than E-mng & Ciangciu? Is it because tones in Cuanciu accent are pronounced more clearly? I don’t know if you’ve heard any conversation in Tang-ua* dialect. From my experience, many people who speak other Hokkien dialects (especially Penang/Medan, but also An-khue) commented that our Tang-ua* accent was very ‘heavy’ (重 tang7) i.e. the tones are of lower pitch & clearly stressed. Tones in Penang/Medan [& Ciangciu ?] accent are usually of higher pitch compared to Cuanciu (Ankhue, Lam-ua*, Tang-ua* etc). Of course, tone pitch in Tiociu are even higher, probably the highest [of Minnan]. Many say that speaking Tiociu is like singing. I think that Cuanciu accent have more vowel sounds and clearer pronounciation but tone pitch are comparably lower & stressed [hence clearer]. Some people like higher pitch & some lower, both should be ok
. Thanks for confirming that hanji for ‘ke1 pou5’ is 家婆. Kaiah also uses these characters in another forum http://chinese.cari.com.my/forum/viewth ... d=uI27g0dN . Then the interesting question is: why it is also pronounced as ‘ke1 pou5’ in Ciangciu/Penang, instead of ‘kae1 pou5’/‘kE1 pou5’?
The dictionary you mentioned seems very good, I’ll try to get one. If possible, could you explain more about 十五韻 "15 rhymes”? Although may not up to date, one of the advantages of old dictionaries (e.g. Douglas’ dictionary, more than 100 years) is that they tell us how the language was like at the time. It’s possible that foreign (including ‘ang5 mo5’) linguists may perceive Hokkien (or any language) a bit different from native speakers. Nonetheless many of their works are very impressive & useful.
It’s a Cuanciu dialect feature that “j” merged into “l”. 廈門方言詞典 records that younger generation in E-mng usually use “l” for “j”. In Tang-ua* dialect, sometimes “l” for those with “j” in Ciangciu dialect are pronounced like “d” (IPA, not Pinyin). This page http://chinese.cari.com.my/forum/viewth ... d=uI27g0dN mentions about “j” as Ciangciu sound. This page http://olddoc.tmu.edu.tw/chiaushin/marker.htm mentions about “j”->”l”->”d”.
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hong
Re: "Busybody" in Hokkien
I just found out http://jointpublishing.com has the book mentioned by casey along with a tape.go to the language side .It costs 160 hk dollar.
ganesha-publishing.com still print douglas book .We don't have to buy second hand book.
ganesha-publishing.com still print douglas book .We don't have to buy second hand book.
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Casey
Re: "Busybody" in Hokkien
Hong,
Thank you for the information of where to find the dictionary.
Niuc,
Personally, I find that the Zhangzhpu accent is the heaviest and the Chaozhou accent, the most musical (more pleasant to the ear, at least to my ear, followed by the Quanzhou accent among the sub-groups of Minnan dialect. The Zhangzhou accent is very monotonous with ambiguous tone difference (re: the 3rd tone and the 7th tone mentioned by Andrew and Sim, and very close tone difference between the 3rd tone and the 5th tone as I mentioned before). Penang/Medan Hokkien follows the Zhangzhou accent in pronunciation but it is spoken in a more lively manner with grammatical influence of local languages (Malay and English). (For example: "chia8 ka8 chhiu2" instead of "ying7 chhiu2 lai5 chia8", in English "eat with one's hands" or Malay "makan untok tangan").
As for the "15 rhymes"(十五韵), I must admit that I know very little about it. I think it has something to do with rhymes in poetry (similar to 潮汕十八音, the 18 sounds of Chaoshan (Teochew) dialect). I wish some one who is familiar with this may shed some light to us.
In the "15 Rhymes" system in "Putong Hua Minnan Dialect Dictionary", the words (in Minnan dialect) are divided into 15 groups according to their sound (vowels). Then with each appropriate consonant in each individual group. one may be able to find the word/term one is looking for. It is a very tedious process. The difficulty is that one must determine correctly that the word one is looking for belongs to which group of rhyme. My friend told me that it is a matter of getting used to it.
Oh yes, I think I speak better in Xiamen than Zhangzhou accent.
Thank you for the information of where to find the dictionary.
Niuc,
Personally, I find that the Zhangzhpu accent is the heaviest and the Chaozhou accent, the most musical (more pleasant to the ear, at least to my ear
, followed by the Quanzhou accent among the sub-groups of Minnan dialect. The Zhangzhou accent is very monotonous with ambiguous tone difference (re: the 3rd tone and the 7th tone mentioned by Andrew and Sim, and very close tone difference between the 3rd tone and the 5th tone as I mentioned before). Penang/Medan Hokkien follows the Zhangzhou accent in pronunciation but it is spoken in a more lively manner with grammatical influence of local languages (Malay and English). (For example: "chia8 ka8 chhiu2" instead of "ying7 chhiu2 lai5 chia8", in English "eat with one's hands" or Malay "makan untok tangan").As for the "15 rhymes"(十五韵), I must admit that I know very little about it. I think it has something to do with rhymes in poetry (similar to 潮汕十八音, the 18 sounds of Chaoshan (Teochew) dialect). I wish some one who is familiar with this may shed some light to us.
In the "15 Rhymes" system in "Putong Hua Minnan Dialect Dictionary", the words (in Minnan dialect) are divided into 15 groups according to their sound (vowels). Then with each appropriate consonant in each individual group. one may be able to find the word/term one is looking for. It is a very tedious process. The difficulty is that one must determine correctly that the word one is looking for belongs to which group of rhyme. My friend told me that it is a matter of getting used to it.
Oh yes, I think I speak better in Xiamen than Zhangzhou accent.
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Casey
Re: "Busybody" in Hokkien
Niuc
From the Putong Hua Minnan Dialect Dictionary, the "15 Rhymes" grouping system is copied for your kind reference as follows:
1.飞机韵: i, ih, ni, nih, ui, uih, nui
2.宇宙韵: u, uh, iu, iuh, niu
3.歌声韵: a, ah, na, nah, ia, iah, nia, niah, ua, uah, nua
4.互助韵: oo, noo, nooh
5.保惜韵: o, oh, io, ioh
6.茶花韵: e, eh, ne, neh, ue, ueh, nueh
7.淮海韵: ai, nai uai, nuai
8.照耀韵: ao, aoh, nao, naoh, iao, iaoh, niao, niaoh
9.森林韵: m, mh, im, ip
10.甘蓝韵: am, ap, iam, iap
11.新春韵: in, it, un, ut
12.延安韵: an, at, ian, iat, uan, uat
13.灯光韵: ng, ngh, ing, ik
14.江东韵: ang, ak, iang, iak
15.昂扬韵: ong, ok, iong, iok
Example: to find "梁" from Hokkien:
First go to the group 宇宙韵, from that group find "niu" for the page number of the index, then from the index find the word 梁 and look for its page number of the word, then turn to the page where the word is and find the meanings: (a) 容器拱起来便于用手提的部分:提梁(te5 liong5). (b)用于姓. (Casey's note: 梁 is also the simplified form of the word (木旁梁) the meaning of which I do not quote here though it is also listed together.)
Otherwise, just simply go to "liang" according to the Hanyu Pinyin alphabetical order and find the word directly.
I still hope that some one who is familiar with the rhymes could give us a good explanation about this.
From the Putong Hua Minnan Dialect Dictionary, the "15 Rhymes" grouping system is copied for your kind reference as follows:
1.飞机韵: i, ih, ni, nih, ui, uih, nui
2.宇宙韵: u, uh, iu, iuh, niu
3.歌声韵: a, ah, na, nah, ia, iah, nia, niah, ua, uah, nua
4.互助韵: oo, noo, nooh
5.保惜韵: o, oh, io, ioh
6.茶花韵: e, eh, ne, neh, ue, ueh, nueh
7.淮海韵: ai, nai uai, nuai
8.照耀韵: ao, aoh, nao, naoh, iao, iaoh, niao, niaoh
9.森林韵: m, mh, im, ip
10.甘蓝韵: am, ap, iam, iap
11.新春韵: in, it, un, ut
12.延安韵: an, at, ian, iat, uan, uat
13.灯光韵: ng, ngh, ing, ik
14.江东韵: ang, ak, iang, iak
15.昂扬韵: ong, ok, iong, iok
Example: to find "梁" from Hokkien:
First go to the group 宇宙韵, from that group find "niu" for the page number of the index, then from the index find the word 梁 and look for its page number of the word, then turn to the page where the word is and find the meanings: (a) 容器拱起来便于用手提的部分:提梁(te5 liong5). (b)用于姓. (Casey's note: 梁 is also the simplified form of the word (木旁梁) the meaning of which I do not quote here though it is also listed together.)
Otherwise, just simply go to "liang" according to the Hanyu Pinyin alphabetical order and find the word directly.
I still hope that some one who is familiar with the rhymes could give us a good explanation about this.
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Casey
Re: "Busybody" in Hokkien
Niuc
Correction: "te5 liong5" is not correct, it should have been "the5 liong5".
Sorry for the mistake.
Correction: "te5 liong5" is not correct, it should have been "the5 liong5".
Sorry for the mistake.
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Niuc
Re: "Busybody" in Hokkien
Hi Casey,
Is it just a coincidence or how do you know that my surname is 梁 'niu5'? Is it obviously revealed in my nickname? Thanks for your explanation about 十五韻 15 rhymes. It seems that 廈門方言詞典 Xiamen Fangyan Cidian also using the same arrangement but may be simpler. The arrangement [in Xiamen Fangyan Cidian] is almost like alphabetical order once we get used to it. I think its usage is mainly meant for poem rhyming purpose.
If possible, could you please explain more about 潮汕十八韻? I am interested to know how different are Teochew rhymes compared to Hokkien. Thanks.
Since Penang/Medan Hokkien is spoken in a livelier manner compared to Ciangciu, it means I have never heard the original Ciangciu accent. Which one is ‘heavier’ in your opinion, Penang accent or Melaka/Johor accent?
[%sig%]
Is it just a coincidence or how do you know that my surname is 梁 'niu5'? Is it obviously revealed in my nickname?
Thanks for your explanation about 十五韻 15 rhymes. It seems that 廈門方言詞典 Xiamen Fangyan Cidian also using the same arrangement but may be simpler. The arrangement [in Xiamen Fangyan Cidian] is almost like alphabetical order once we get used to it. I think its usage is mainly meant for poem rhyming purpose. If possible, could you please explain more about 潮汕十八韻? I am interested to know how different are Teochew rhymes compared to Hokkien. Thanks.
Since Penang/Medan Hokkien is spoken in a livelier manner compared to Ciangciu, it means I have never heard the original Ciangciu accent. Which one is ‘heavier’ in your opinion, Penang accent or Melaka/Johor accent?
[%sig%]
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Casey
Re: "Busybody" in Hokkien
Niuc
I knew that your surname is "niu5" because I've read your poem on your web page. I admire your high level of Chinese language proficiency.
As I mentioned before, I know little about rhymes, let alone "ban5 lam5 15 un7" or "tio5 chiu1 18 im1". I do hope some one could enlighten us more about rhymes.
About accents, my personal opinion is that Melaka/Muar accent sounds more plesant than Penang/Medan accent. The former is mostly 'Ing2 Chun1" sub-group of the Chuan5 Chiu1" accent, similar to your "Tang5 Oa*1" accent. The latter is quite "flat" relatively speaking. As I said, this is just my personal feeling about the accents, no offence to all Penang friends.
I knew that your surname is "niu5" because I've read your poem on your web page. I admire your high level of Chinese language proficiency.
As I mentioned before, I know little about rhymes, let alone "ban5 lam5 15 un7" or "tio5 chiu1 18 im1". I do hope some one could enlighten us more about rhymes.
About accents, my personal opinion is that Melaka/Muar accent sounds more plesant than Penang/Medan accent. The former is mostly 'Ing2 Chun1" sub-group of the Chuan5 Chiu1" accent, similar to your "Tang5 Oa*1" accent. The latter is quite "flat" relatively speaking. As I said, this is just my personal feeling about the accents, no offence to all Penang friends.
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Niuc
Re: "Busybody" in Hokkien
Casey,
Thanks a lot for your compliment. 是汝毋甘嫌啦 ‘si7 ly2 m7 kam1 hiam5 la0’. Actually my proficiency in Chinese is still not satisfactory. I have no formal education in Chinese and am still learning, including from you & all friends here. Information written in my website mostly are taken from several sources. Those poems are really amateur. After getting more info now, I am trying to find some time to rectify and update those pages.
What is ‘15’ in "ban5 lam5 15 un7" and ‘18’ in "tio5 chiu1 18 im1"?
Personally I also prefer Melaka/Muar accent [which is very similar to ours] because it sounds clearer and more natural to my ears. But I also agree that some prefer Penang/Medan accent. Personal preferences, I guess. We usually say that Penang/Medan accent is ‘lighter’ (of higher pitch) than Melaka/Muar accent. I think that lower/higher pitch doesn’t correlate directly with ‘flatness’. Do we have different definition for the word ‘heavy’ regarding accents? Which accent is ‘lighter’/‘heavier’ in your opinion [regardless of ‘flatness’]?
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Thanks a lot for your compliment. 是汝毋甘嫌啦 ‘si7 ly2 m7 kam1 hiam5 la0’. Actually my proficiency in Chinese is still not satisfactory. I have no formal education in Chinese and am still learning, including from you & all friends here. Information written in my website mostly are taken from several sources. Those poems are really amateur. After getting more info now, I am trying to find some time to rectify and update those pages.
What is ‘15’ in "ban5 lam5 15 un7" and ‘18’ in "tio5 chiu1 18 im1"?
Personally I also prefer Melaka/Muar accent [which is very similar to ours] because it sounds clearer and more natural to my ears. But I also agree that some prefer Penang/Medan accent. Personal preferences, I guess. We usually say that Penang/Medan accent is ‘lighter’ (of higher pitch) than Melaka/Muar accent. I think that lower/higher pitch doesn’t correlate directly with ‘flatness’. Do we have different definition for the word ‘heavy’ regarding accents? Which accent is ‘lighter’/‘heavier’ in your opinion [regardless of ‘flatness’]?
[%sig%]