Hi Yisheng,
>> Does Penang Hokkien follow the same tonal change
>> ruling as Amoy and the other sub-dialects too?
As far as I'm concerned, no. See http://www.chineselanguage.org/forum/re ... 513&t=1423 and preceding and following posts in that thread for more details.
>> Penang Hokkien is closest tonally to [ ... ]
>> Chiangchiu's Longhai county, especially Hai Cheng city
Thanks for this hint. If I'm in the vicinity, I will most certainly try and check this out.
Sim.
[%sig%]
Philippine Hokkien
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hong
Re: Philippine Hokkien
Dear Yisheng,
How the hell people in haicheng can understand penang hokkien when they keep on using words like mana,salah etc.Many pure chiangchiu words,verbs are totally unknown to penang people.
Penang and many chuanchiu people in malaysia (1.5 m?)must undergo studies in their language instead of speaking wrong chiangchiu language which is minority along xiamen.I have only seen Haicheng but never any changdai,etc.
I haven't heard any chuangchiu say correctly thit tho for chit tho(playing)to(GIVE) for ho in chiang and xia in malaysia yet.
How the hell people in haicheng can understand penang hokkien when they keep on using words like mana,salah etc.Many pure chiangchiu words,verbs are totally unknown to penang people.
Penang and many chuanchiu people in malaysia (1.5 m?)must undergo studies in their language instead of speaking wrong chiangchiu language which is minority along xiamen.I have only seen Haicheng but never any changdai,etc.
I haven't heard any chuangchiu say correctly thit tho for chit tho(playing)to(GIVE) for ho in chiang and xia in malaysia yet.
-
Sim
Re: Philippine Hokkien
Hong,
>> How the hell people in haicheng can understand penang hokkien
>> when they keep on using words like mana,salah etc.Many pure
>> chiangchiu words,verbs are totally unknown to penang people.
I don't understand why you insist that people must speak in one way or another.
In linguistics - the _scientific_ study of language - there is no "better" or "worse" way of saying anything. It is certainly not the case that the "original" way of saying something is automatically better.
Languages evolve and change. Words change in pronunciation, grammatical forms change, and new words are borrowed. A language evolves to fit the community which uses it.
Hokkiens in Malaysia found themselves in a different cultural situation than the homelad they left behind. In that new situation, they adapted their language to fit their needs. Hokkien speakers in Taiwan did the same.
During the Japanese occupation, lots of loadwords from Japanese came into the Taiwanese language (I can't quote you any now, but I believe some examples were: things related to Japanese tea ceremony, some word for an older woman - a nanny or matron or something "obisan"?, etc). They also have their own word for "guava" instead of the standard Mandarin Chinese characters.
Why should any of these people not use these words?
Even Minnan speakers spreading into Southern China way back adopted words from aboriginal languages. For example: "an-ni" (like this, in this way), and "la-gia" (spider) are non-Han words. Would you demand that all Hokkiens stop using these words and use "proper" Chinese words?
If the principle you appear to be applying were valid, then all the Latin and Romance words in English should be banned. These were all borrowed from the usage of the Norman conquerors in England, or from Latin-educated intellectuals, even though equivalents with a Germanic base were available, or were being coined in Germany and Scandinavia.
English in America got separated from English in Britain, and evolved some of its own pronunciation (e.g. "herb" with a silent "h-"*, etc), vocabulary (e.g. "truck" instead of "lorry", etc), even some of its own grammar (e.g. "dived" vs. "dove", "proved" vs. "proven", etc). What's wrong with that?
[ *: Silent vs pronounced h- in "herb". This could also be a case of British English restoring an originally silent h- because of "spelling pronunciation", i.e. the influence of the spelling on the pronunciation. Or it could be the case that in the original language community both silent and pronounced h- existed for this word, and in America the former prevailed, and the Britain the latter. ]
These are all examples of communities which have been separated from their original speakers for a reasonable length of time. I acknowledge that it doesn't help communication, when languages diverge. But who is to say that the community which stayed behind has the right to demand that the other communities speak exactly as they do, and evolve in the same direction as they do. In many cases, the original communities also adopt new words. One example of this is that Northern Chinese adopted Mongolian and Manchurian words into their local speech, because of their closer every-day contact with the conquerors (also because they were _geographically_ closer). Some of these words supplanted original Han-Chinese words which existed in Ancient Chinese and which are still preserved as every-day words in the Southen dialects.
Should the speakers in the South "demand" that Mandarin speakers start using an ancient Han word because they happen to still use it? Or should the speakers in the North "demand" that the Southerners adopt the Mongolian / Manchurian words, just because the North has more speakers, or because they speak the standard language?
It would be healthier is there was mutual respect for one another's forms of language. Both groups could continue to use their own forms, and learn (passively) about the forms used by the other groups.
I have to say I find your criticisms (and the way you express them) lacking in this basic respect for the forms of other people's language.
Sim.
[%sig%]
>> How the hell people in haicheng can understand penang hokkien
>> when they keep on using words like mana,salah etc.Many pure
>> chiangchiu words,verbs are totally unknown to penang people.
I don't understand why you insist that people must speak in one way or another.
In linguistics - the _scientific_ study of language - there is no "better" or "worse" way of saying anything. It is certainly not the case that the "original" way of saying something is automatically better.
Languages evolve and change. Words change in pronunciation, grammatical forms change, and new words are borrowed. A language evolves to fit the community which uses it.
Hokkiens in Malaysia found themselves in a different cultural situation than the homelad they left behind. In that new situation, they adapted their language to fit their needs. Hokkien speakers in Taiwan did the same.
During the Japanese occupation, lots of loadwords from Japanese came into the Taiwanese language (I can't quote you any now, but I believe some examples were: things related to Japanese tea ceremony, some word for an older woman - a nanny or matron or something "obisan"?, etc). They also have their own word for "guava" instead of the standard Mandarin Chinese characters.
Why should any of these people not use these words?
Even Minnan speakers spreading into Southern China way back adopted words from aboriginal languages. For example: "an-ni" (like this, in this way), and "la-gia" (spider) are non-Han words. Would you demand that all Hokkiens stop using these words and use "proper" Chinese words?
If the principle you appear to be applying were valid, then all the Latin and Romance words in English should be banned. These were all borrowed from the usage of the Norman conquerors in England, or from Latin-educated intellectuals, even though equivalents with a Germanic base were available, or were being coined in Germany and Scandinavia.
English in America got separated from English in Britain, and evolved some of its own pronunciation (e.g. "herb" with a silent "h-"*, etc), vocabulary (e.g. "truck" instead of "lorry", etc), even some of its own grammar (e.g. "dived" vs. "dove", "proved" vs. "proven", etc). What's wrong with that?
[ *: Silent vs pronounced h- in "herb". This could also be a case of British English restoring an originally silent h- because of "spelling pronunciation", i.e. the influence of the spelling on the pronunciation. Or it could be the case that in the original language community both silent and pronounced h- existed for this word, and in America the former prevailed, and the Britain the latter. ]
These are all examples of communities which have been separated from their original speakers for a reasonable length of time. I acknowledge that it doesn't help communication, when languages diverge. But who is to say that the community which stayed behind has the right to demand that the other communities speak exactly as they do, and evolve in the same direction as they do. In many cases, the original communities also adopt new words. One example of this is that Northern Chinese adopted Mongolian and Manchurian words into their local speech, because of their closer every-day contact with the conquerors (also because they were _geographically_ closer). Some of these words supplanted original Han-Chinese words which existed in Ancient Chinese and which are still preserved as every-day words in the Southen dialects.
Should the speakers in the South "demand" that Mandarin speakers start using an ancient Han word because they happen to still use it? Or should the speakers in the North "demand" that the Southerners adopt the Mongolian / Manchurian words, just because the North has more speakers, or because they speak the standard language?
It would be healthier is there was mutual respect for one another's forms of language. Both groups could continue to use their own forms, and learn (passively) about the forms used by the other groups.
I have to say I find your criticisms (and the way you express them) lacking in this basic respect for the forms of other people's language.
Sim.
[%sig%]
-
hong
Re: Philippine Hokkien
Dear sim,
I think you contradict yourself.Why you want to spend time studying minnan if you think correct minnan is not important?Deep in your heart you must sense that speaking correct minnan follow where your grandfather came from will make you feel proud rather than this kind of malay-like with pun,etc .
Malay language has too many english recently until many can't stand it anymore including malays.This happen because Eng is not a dead language.We chinese living outside china face the danger for being label as non chinese.American and England is not the same case like chinese.This is not the case for Taiwan and Hongkong because they have chinese majority.Chinese prof laugh at malaysia putonghua really hurt and I am sure they will also laugh at Hami for what hamang for who,meh from the cantonese etc.
Taiwanese minnan still retain the correct form of it although it is not pure chuan and chiang.Malaysia minnan cannot go the extreme is my view.This happens also to malaysian putonghua which has dabates on do we need malaysian putonghua , follow closely to china or follow taiwanese,etc.
I think you contradict yourself.Why you want to spend time studying minnan if you think correct minnan is not important?Deep in your heart you must sense that speaking correct minnan follow where your grandfather came from will make you feel proud rather than this kind of malay-like with pun,etc .
Malay language has too many english recently until many can't stand it anymore including malays.This happen because Eng is not a dead language.We chinese living outside china face the danger for being label as non chinese.American and England is not the same case like chinese.This is not the case for Taiwan and Hongkong because they have chinese majority.Chinese prof laugh at malaysia putonghua really hurt and I am sure they will also laugh at Hami for what hamang for who,meh from the cantonese etc.
Taiwanese minnan still retain the correct form of it although it is not pure chuan and chiang.Malaysia minnan cannot go the extreme is my view.This happens also to malaysian putonghua which has dabates on do we need malaysian putonghua , follow closely to china or follow taiwanese,etc.
-
hong
Re: Philippine Hokkien
I 'd like to add many malaysia minnan visited china don't dare to speak in minnan because they know people will laugh at them.This happens to Ng Kang Teng ,MCA presiden who visited jinjiang.How sad it is!!!
-
Yisheng
Re: Philippine Hokkien
Hi Sim,
thanks for your extremely well crafted explanation of tonal changes in Penang Hokkien. Perhaps one day, you should publish your own book about Penang Hokkien, one subject which I feel is severely lacking in literature both in printed and electronic form.
One more thing to add, Sim, I got my info on Penang Hokkien close relation to the sub-dialect spoken in Haicheng by an esteemed prof from xiamen university, prof Zhou Changji. He led the team of writers that published the very excellent Madarin-minnan dictionary back in the 80s. He also recently collaborated with prof chew chang hai of Nanyang Technological University's Chinese Language Research Centre on two books on the Singapore Minnan dialect. One was an introductory overview on the Singapore Minnan dialect and the other, A Singapore Minnan dictionary. I think the dictionary has been mentioned somewhere in other threads before. I guess our dear friend hong, who is very familiar with Minnan publications can give us a list of his publications. In both books, he speaks about how the minnan language evolved overseas to encompass the unique lifestyle and customs of overseas hokkien people. He also encouraged more research on the Singapore minnan and other overseas minnan sub-dialects as it is a priceless cultural heritage.
Strangely, never once did he say anything deragotory about the minnan vernacular spoken in Singapore or Malaysia both in his publications and in my short interaction with him.
Oh, and lastly, he assured me that Penang Hokkien would be well understood if we Penangnites ever went to Chiangchiu, esp Longhai county area near Haicheng city. So, if you ever have the chance to go there, please open your mouth and introduce yourself in Penang Hokkien. I'm sure the locals there will highly appreciate it.
Yisheng
thanks for your extremely well crafted explanation of tonal changes in Penang Hokkien. Perhaps one day, you should publish your own book about Penang Hokkien, one subject which I feel is severely lacking in literature both in printed and electronic form.
One more thing to add, Sim, I got my info on Penang Hokkien close relation to the sub-dialect spoken in Haicheng by an esteemed prof from xiamen university, prof Zhou Changji. He led the team of writers that published the very excellent Madarin-minnan dictionary back in the 80s. He also recently collaborated with prof chew chang hai of Nanyang Technological University's Chinese Language Research Centre on two books on the Singapore Minnan dialect. One was an introductory overview on the Singapore Minnan dialect and the other, A Singapore Minnan dictionary. I think the dictionary has been mentioned somewhere in other threads before. I guess our dear friend hong, who is very familiar with Minnan publications can give us a list of his publications. In both books, he speaks about how the minnan language evolved overseas to encompass the unique lifestyle and customs of overseas hokkien people. He also encouraged more research on the Singapore minnan and other overseas minnan sub-dialects as it is a priceless cultural heritage.
Strangely, never once did he say anything deragotory about the minnan vernacular spoken in Singapore or Malaysia both in his publications and in my short interaction with him.
Oh, and lastly, he assured me that Penang Hokkien would be well understood if we Penangnites ever went to Chiangchiu, esp Longhai county area near Haicheng city. So, if you ever have the chance to go there, please open your mouth and introduce yourself in Penang Hokkien. I'm sure the locals there will highly appreciate it.
Yisheng
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Andrew Yong
Re: Philippine Hokkien
Hong: I am not particularly interested in a 'right' form of Hokkien, since there is no such thing. I personally am not interested in standard Amoy Hokkien since it is not the language I grew up with, but Penang Hokkien. I would like to be able to read and write it, and to that extent feel that Malay loan-words should be minimised (e.g. I am still looking for a suitable everyday substitute for su-kah), but I know that even in Amoy and Teochiu there are a few Malay loan-words: e.g. ma2-ta5 (police), just like there are aboriginal loanwords etc. I think knowledge of literary or reading Hokkien is also useful as a 讀書音.
For my purpose there are ways where Penang Hokkien is more 'right' for my purposes than KL or Singapore Hokkien: e.g. pan1-gi5 instead of phi*1 for cheap, since I know how to write the former but not the latter.
Yisheng: Can you provide any references to the Longhai link? Where did you read it?
For my purpose there are ways where Penang Hokkien is more 'right' for my purposes than KL or Singapore Hokkien: e.g. pan1-gi5 instead of phi*1 for cheap, since I know how to write the former but not the latter.
Yisheng: Can you provide any references to the Longhai link? Where did you read it?
-
hong
Re: Philippine Hokkien
Let me tell a story about penang hokkien,
A radio DJ,from 988 intentionly insult a penang caller about why you people don't speak proper hokkien .Why roti,batu,berlian?The caller cannot argue about it.Since minnan already has the correct minnan word for it.Why still insist on using malay word ?This is the extreme I am talking about.South malaysian hokkien tend to look down on north malaysian minnan.
I find that many Penang living in Petaling Jaya are willing to learn proper minnan in chuan chiu follow their grandfather but just cannot find the proper dictionary without hanzi.They like to know cibai and lanba hanzi (sex organ)for those chinese educated.
Prof Zhou two books about singapore minnan are available in
http://www.laisbook.com.tw
A radio DJ,from 988 intentionly insult a penang caller about why you people don't speak proper hokkien .Why roti,batu,berlian?The caller cannot argue about it.Since minnan already has the correct minnan word for it.Why still insist on using malay word ?This is the extreme I am talking about.South malaysian hokkien tend to look down on north malaysian minnan.
I find that many Penang living in Petaling Jaya are willing to learn proper minnan in chuan chiu follow their grandfather but just cannot find the proper dictionary without hanzi.They like to know cibai and lanba hanzi (sex organ)for those chinese educated.
Prof Zhou two books about singapore minnan are available in
http://www.laisbook.com.tw
-
hong
Re: Philippine Hokkien
Dear Yisheng,
I don't think longhai people will completely understand penang hokkien with every phrase start with hami,hamang,mana and pun,etc.This happens to my grandmother in china.I grew up in Kulim and have many relatives from Penang.I find that not every penang speak pui ,tui,chiangchiu sound for png and tng.Many of them without any knowledge still using chuanchiu sound.
Dear Andrew,
The taiwanese dict in this web give tiog for cheap instead of phing from putonghua which shouldn't be the right word for minnan.Loan words should be the 15% of it for any fangyan in china.
It is just the choice between become a scholar or just for fun in min languages.Those who are interested will go as far as ancient books like guangyun,fangyan,jiyun,jindianshiwen,shuowenjiezi besides thoese classic minnan dictionaries.A lot of money has to be spent for buying those books and thesis.This is the same case for hakka too.
I don't think longhai people will completely understand penang hokkien with every phrase start with hami,hamang,mana and pun,etc.This happens to my grandmother in china.I grew up in Kulim and have many relatives from Penang.I find that not every penang speak pui ,tui,chiangchiu sound for png and tng.Many of them without any knowledge still using chuanchiu sound.
Dear Andrew,
The taiwanese dict in this web give tiog for cheap instead of phing from putonghua which shouldn't be the right word for minnan.Loan words should be the 15% of it for any fangyan in china.
It is just the choice between become a scholar or just for fun in min languages.Those who are interested will go as far as ancient books like guangyun,fangyan,jiyun,jindianshiwen,shuowenjiezi besides thoese classic minnan dictionaries.A lot of money has to be spent for buying those books and thesis.This is the same case for hakka too.
-
Yisheng
Re: Philippine Hokkien
Hi Andrew,
as I've said in my previous post, I got the Longhai link from prof Zhou Changji from Xiamen university during my brief interaction with him last year. I came across the introductory singapore minnan book in the National University of singapore's Chinese library and noted that he mentioned that Penang hokkien is very similar to that in Chiangchiu. I emailed one of the authors, Prof Chew Chang Hai of Nanyang Technological University's Chinese Language Research Centre and that was how I was directed to prof Zhou. I have since deleted the email but I have printed out a copy of it. This is what he says:
"可以說比較接近今漳州的龍海縣 (現在改為龍海市), 尤其一些人的讀音, 更接近龍海縣的海澄這個地區. 如果檳城人來漳州旅游, 他們說的口音, 有不少跟漳州音相差不大, 聲調多數相同. 但檳城人的閩南話已混了閩南地區其他地方的口音."
For the benefit of Sim and others who cannot read Chinese characters, he was saying that Penang Hokkien is quite close to that of Longhai county, for some people he encountered, their diction is remarkably similar to that of Haicheng in Longhai county. If Penangnites come to Chiangchiu for holiday purposes, their accent at most times would be similar to that of Chiangchiu today, and the tones would be similar. However, Penang Hokkien has also absorbed the accents of other Minnan sub-dialects.
Hong, although I may not concur with most of your statements, I must agree with you that a knowledge of literary Hokkien (I think that is what you meant by proper minnan) is a good thing as one can listen to and understand news broadcasts and speeches and even minnan literature. Even in Penang, formal speeches are made in literary Hokkien. I think Andrew has made this point in his post.
Just a little point to add. I have been living in Johor Bahru and Singapore for the past 14 years. My conversations with locals here in Hokkien have been very interesting to say the least. People would immediately identify me as a Penangnite or someone from North Malaysia because of my accent. Most of the time, I find that people here have trouble understanding me not because of my usage of hokkienised malay words(Incidently, Suka is used here) because of the difference in chiangchiu and amoy or chuanchiu form of pronounciation and the tonal change difference. Like in hue2 for light in Penang and he2 in JB and Singapore. Every time this situation crops up, I would explain and after a while most people would get the pattern.
Of course, I believe in foreigners learning the language of the locals and I would try to remember to use the local pronounciation when I converse but at times, the Penang way just slips out. I have not encountered anyone in real life who has been particularly disgusted with the way I speak except in internet forums. For purposes of interest, it would be good to know how my great-grandfather from an5 khe1 or an5 khue1 spoke. If I ever went to an5 khe1, I would try and learn the way they speak to understand them better and not because I think that is more correct.
Lastly, I would take with a pinch of salt the intention of anyone who wants to learn the literary form of Minnan just for the purposes of knowing how sex organs are pronounced.
Yisheng
as I've said in my previous post, I got the Longhai link from prof Zhou Changji from Xiamen university during my brief interaction with him last year. I came across the introductory singapore minnan book in the National University of singapore's Chinese library and noted that he mentioned that Penang hokkien is very similar to that in Chiangchiu. I emailed one of the authors, Prof Chew Chang Hai of Nanyang Technological University's Chinese Language Research Centre and that was how I was directed to prof Zhou. I have since deleted the email but I have printed out a copy of it. This is what he says:
"可以說比較接近今漳州的龍海縣 (現在改為龍海市), 尤其一些人的讀音, 更接近龍海縣的海澄這個地區. 如果檳城人來漳州旅游, 他們說的口音, 有不少跟漳州音相差不大, 聲調多數相同. 但檳城人的閩南話已混了閩南地區其他地方的口音."
For the benefit of Sim and others who cannot read Chinese characters, he was saying that Penang Hokkien is quite close to that of Longhai county, for some people he encountered, their diction is remarkably similar to that of Haicheng in Longhai county. If Penangnites come to Chiangchiu for holiday purposes, their accent at most times would be similar to that of Chiangchiu today, and the tones would be similar. However, Penang Hokkien has also absorbed the accents of other Minnan sub-dialects.
Hong, although I may not concur with most of your statements, I must agree with you that a knowledge of literary Hokkien (I think that is what you meant by proper minnan) is a good thing as one can listen to and understand news broadcasts and speeches and even minnan literature. Even in Penang, formal speeches are made in literary Hokkien. I think Andrew has made this point in his post.
Just a little point to add. I have been living in Johor Bahru and Singapore for the past 14 years. My conversations with locals here in Hokkien have been very interesting to say the least. People would immediately identify me as a Penangnite or someone from North Malaysia because of my accent. Most of the time, I find that people here have trouble understanding me not because of my usage of hokkienised malay words(Incidently, Suka is used here) because of the difference in chiangchiu and amoy or chuanchiu form of pronounciation and the tonal change difference. Like in hue2 for light in Penang and he2 in JB and Singapore. Every time this situation crops up, I would explain and after a while most people would get the pattern.
Of course, I believe in foreigners learning the language of the locals and I would try to remember to use the local pronounciation when I converse but at times, the Penang way just slips out. I have not encountered anyone in real life who has been particularly disgusted with the way I speak except in internet forums. For purposes of interest, it would be good to know how my great-grandfather from an5 khe1 or an5 khue1 spoke. If I ever went to an5 khe1, I would try and learn the way they speak to understand them better and not because I think that is more correct.
Lastly, I would take with a pinch of salt the intention of anyone who wants to learn the literary form of Minnan just for the purposes of knowing how sex organs are pronounced.
Yisheng