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Discussions on the Hokkien (Minnan) language.
Mark Yong
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Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 3:52 pm

Post by Mark Yong »

niuc wrote:I think there are still quite a number of people especially in Taiwan and Fujian who still can recite classical works using literary reading. Unfortunately most young people are not able to do that. Indeed literary quotes like those won't be easily understood by most native Hokkien speakers. Even in the old times, I think only those who went to school or were rich enough to have private lessons [私塾 sy1-siok8] that could easily understand those quotes.
Hi, Niuc,

Something a little closer to home - would you reckon that many native Hokkien speakers in Malaysia/Singapore/Indonesia can understand the Hokkien news? Most of the terms used in the Hokkien news are actually modern terminologies as used in Mandarin, but using Hokkien pronunciation.

The irony is that for the educated people today who understand these modern terms, they would most likely have learnt them first in Mandarin form, not in Hokkien - which is the opposite of the common everyday words, which native Hokkien speakers first learn in Hokkien before transferring them to Mandarin during schooling life.

I doubt there are many native Hokkien speakers alive today who still belong to the generation that learnt the Chinese written language using Hokkien as the base, since Mandarin became the medium of Chinese instruction around the 1920's to 30's, which would put them above the age of 90 (my maternal grandmother falls under this category - she's a native Hakka speaker, reads the Chinese newspapers regularly, but knows no Mandarin).
ong
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Post by ong »

I am sure penang people won't understand it.They don't even know how to say celebrate.
It is not important to learn pronunciation for those mandarin proverbs,we should learn minnan proverb to express the same meaning for it.This is the better way to show how good we are instead of those benzi.
Mark Yong
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Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 3:52 pm

Post by Mark Yong »

ong wrote:I am sure penang people won't understand it.They don't even know how to say celebrate.
I take it you are referring to the latest Penang Hokkien podcast, on 國慶日. Yes, I heard the host trying to correct the speaker several times on how to pronounce the term 慶祝.
ong wrote:It is not important to learn pronunciation for those mandarin proverbs,we should learn minnan proverb to express the same meaning for it.This is the better way to show how good we are instead of those benzi.
Okay understood. My question, using a simple example (since I am an engineer): We normally use the Mandarin phrase 'chang2 du1' 長度 when we talk about 'length'. But in Hokkien, we normally just say 長 'tng' (上音), not 長度 'tiong tO' / 'tng tO', right? If I am wrong, and we also use 長度 in Hokkien, then should the 長 be pronounced as 文讀 (i.e. 'tiong tO') or 白讀 (i.e. 'tng tO')? According to Bodman, when these words occur as 詞, then the 文讀 pronunciation is used (e.g. 飛 is 'pe' but 飛機 is 'hui ki').
ong
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Post by ong »

It should be tiong /tiang.
飛=pue is only when we say special minnan invention 飛船。
You can hear those guys even say 再見 as kinn.Since the word is from mandarin,it should be kian.
It is so silly to talk about Penang hokkien,since at least 70% don't know how to say celebrate,can I say the correct word for Penang minnan is english celebrate or mandarin sound of it if I am given the job of writting 檳島閩南方言志﹖
It is shameful if Penang people still feel proud about this language.We can have limited vocaburaly in this language but not to the extent of no light tone,wrong vowel being used,no proverb and no more than 10 ABB type of adjective,using teochew uang,luang in daily conversation.
I would say it was due to limited minnan population in Penang Islang since the beginning.We cannot have minnan people living together like those people in Taiwan.In taiwan people still speak a bit like thier ancestors in their area.You certainly can't find people speaking 惠安 dialect with special alphabet and vowel in whole malaysia now.
ong
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Joined: Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:04 am

Post by ong »

sorry,after I check my dict it can only be tng for 3 sects.
tiongand tiang is only for name like chang an and what huiyinmiaohu says for elders.
Mark Yong
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Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2005 3:52 pm

Post by Mark Yong »

ong wrote:sorry,after I check my dict it can only be tng for 3 sects.
tiongand tiang is only for name like chang an and what huiyinmiaohu says for elders.
Hi, Hong,

Thanks. So, just to confirm - 長度 is 'tng tO' (i.e. use 白讀 pronunciation for 長), not 'tiong tO'?

I guess this is consistent with 飛機 'pue ki' usage in Malaysia (seems Bodman's theory on using 'hui ki' is not applicable in today's usage).
ong
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Post by ong »

china dict just use wendu tiong/tiang for elder 校长,家长 but taiwanese use baidu tiunn/tionn.I think we should use tiong since old minnan dict say 尊也。
I don't think we should compare 飞 which has the same meaning for wenbai .
baidu of tng has a totally defferent meaning with tiong/tiang.
I don't know how many hanzi has this kind of situation.
niuc
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Joined: Sun Oct 16, 2005 3:23 pm
Location: Singapore

Post by niuc »

Mark, although not all, nonetheless there are many native Hokkien speakers in Indonesia - especially those who received Chinese education or have learned Mandarin - who can understand Hokkien news from Taiwan or China. Indeed my mom, relatives and many people from my hometown mainly watch Taiwanese TV programs and news. Yet you are right that nowadays usually we learn many terms from Mandarin then map them into Hokkien.

Regarding 長度, usually we can avoid using it in Hokkien, but if really needed, personally I prefer tng5-to`7.
飛機 can be hui1-ki1 but we usually say per1-ki1.
再見 is cai3-kian3 in our usage, but if we want to use colloquial, we can say [kha4/cia4-]ko3-ki*3. Actually in Hokkien it's more natural to say 再會 cai3-hui7.
長 if read as chang2 in Mandarin is tng5/tiong5/tiang5 in Hokkien; if zhang3 in Mandarin is tiu*2/tng2/tiong2/tiang2 in Hokkien.
校長 is also hau7-tiu*2 in my dialect, but 家長 ka1-tiong2 is rarely used.
長大 can be tng2-tua7 or tiong2-tua7. So in my dialect tiong2 can have 2 meanings: to grow (= tng2) or leader/elder (= tiu*2).
ong
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Post by ong »

长 tng also has another meaning of 利益。I never heard anyone using it yet.
niuc
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Location: Singapore

Post by niuc »

Yes, 長 can mean advantage/strength such as in Mandarin 長處 (seldom or hardly used in Hokkien). 長 tng5 as a verb can mean "to take advantage of" and is frequently used in my dialect. Such as:
長人 tng5_lang0 = to take advantage of other people
e.g. 伊真愛長人 i1 cin1-ai3-tng5_lang0 he/she likes to take advantage of other people. Don't misread tng5_lang0 (lang5 neutralized) as tng5-lang5 that is for 唐人 "people of Tang dynasty" i.e. Chinese.
予人長去 ho`7-lang5-tng5_khy0 = to be taken advantage of by other people.
e.g. 伊予人長去了復不知 i1 ho`7-lang5-tng5_khy0_a0 ko3-m7-cai1 he/she has been taken advantage of (by others) and yet still doesn't realize it.
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