Malaysian/Singaporen Hokkien foreign malay words

[aokh1979]

I am not trying to argue, but I just want to share some life experience. I may not make any sense to any of you, do not believe, if you do not agree, it's up to you.

I grew up in Penang. So far, I never met anyone who could not differentiate Malay loanwords from daily conversation, I don't mean every word, of course but at least daily words like "batu", "suka", "sampai", "tapi", "kelam-kabut", "bangku", "lorong", etc. So far, I never met any. Take the example of "batu", there's a famous temple in Jelutong (a place known to every Penangite) called Tsioh Thau Kong Bio, the Temple of Stone Master. Everyone I know, knows "batu" = "tsioh thau", including young friends.

There was a Hokkien show in KL Performing Arts Centre last week. The show was directed and played by a group of Penangites plus 1 Malaccan. The show was completely in Penang Hokkien, with lots of Malay loanwords and very limited English words. I made the entrance announcement in Hokkien. I brought almost all of my Penang and Klang friends who live in KL to watch it. They understood it completely except a few lines spoken by the Malaccan guy in his own variant.

I fully agree that more loanwords are going to kill our language but my criteria on Penang Hokkien is, every loanword I use must be understood by my deceased grandmother. If she used "batu", then "batu" is in my variant. She did not know "but" so I have to say "tapi" or "tan si". However, I am not about to replace "batu" to "tsioh thau" but I know, when I meet a Taiwanese or anyone from Klang who doesn't know what "batu" is, I will explain to them.

Unless our language is 60% full of loanwords (which I do not refer to recent young people who speak with an influx of English words) then it's different story. Right now, I personally think it's a matter of American English and British English. I live in Xiamen for 8 years now, I know I never have to force myself to change the way I speak, but to pick up new words from locals when they speak. If you have been to Xiamen or Zhangzhou or Quanzhou, you may be surprised that even locals (my young friends in their 20s) know what "tongkat" is.

[SimL]

Hi aokh,

Thank you for such a well thought-out and carefully worded reply.

I've never been exposed to the "massive amount of English borrowings" of (apparently) some of the younger generation (probably because I left Penang too long ago). I have to admit that even my so-called "non-prescriptivist" position might be sorely tested if I came across someone using 60% English words in his/her Hokkien !

When I speak Hokkien, I use lots and lots of English words for all the more "abstract" and "educated" concepts (like "politics", or "economy" or "elections" or "classical music"), but I too don't see these as really 'belonging' to Penang Hokkien, only as things which I have to resort to because I don't know native Hokkien words (in contrast to the Malay words you gave, which I also see as being very well integrated into - and an essential part of - Penang Hokkien). I liked your "grandmother-criterion" for deciding whether to use a word or not (which means, I guess, that I'm a sort of purist in my own way - I like the language as my grandparents spoke it!). My studying Mandarin helps me 'lose' some English words, because where the educated Hokkien term matches the Mandarin term, I can profit from having learnt the Mandarin term.

[xng]

because I don't know native Hokkien words

Precisely, it was because in the past, the English/malay educated chinese were the majority and that's why malay and english words creeped into the language 'quietly'. But nowadays, due to internet and cable TV which allow us to watch Taiwanese shows/songs and learn more hokkien words, there is absolutely no excuse to continue using these malay words.

Let me summarise the different groups of 'rojak hokkien'.

Fujian province (100% hokkien) ->
Southern malaya/Singapore (60% hokkien, 10% malay, 30% English)->
Northern malaya (50% hokkien, 20% malay, 30% English) ->
Baba/nyonya (10% hokkien, 60% malay, 30% English)

The longer you stay disconnected from the root (without chinese education), the more you lose the original words.

[aokh1979]

Hi xng:

This is my personal thought. You're right, we have more exposure to Taiwan TV series with Japanese loanwords now. We will continue to watch it, my family will, I will, most of my friends who subscribe Hua Hee Dai in Malaysia will. If we pick up words from Taiwan and use it in daily conversation, it will then naturally become part of our Hokkien. Again, it will have to happen naturally, not forcefully. I am not about to change the way I speak my 1st language, but if I come across interesting words from Taiwan TV, I believe I will start using them. Do not push me to absorb and say good-bye immediately to my "root" in Penang. Thank you.

PS: And one day, when you realise Hokkiens (based on those I have met in China for the past 8 years) in China do not know how to express "struggle", "waste", "movie" in the "100%-pure" Hokkien because they're heavily used to using Mandarin words directly, do advise me if I should drop those I learn from Penang and follow China.

[amhoanna]

Another word to consider: ka'ia̍h vs kaya (Melayu).

(ka1-iah8 ... tone mark not showing)

台日大 defines ka'ia̍h as 真鬧热
白話小 has it as 生意興隆 (in Mand)

本字 given by both as 交易, ditto on 台華綫頂.

[amhoanna]

Another word to consider: ka'ia̍h vs kaya (Melayu).

(ka1-iah8 ... tone mark not showing)

台日大 defines ka'ia̍h as 真鬧热
白話小 has it as 生意興隆 (in Mand)

本字 given by both as 交易, ditto on 台華綫頂.


(Khihhō͘ pùnsò kóngkò.khàm tiāu..a.)

[niuc]

In Bagan variant, ka1-ia8 has 2 meanings:
1. rich or good business -> from Malay: kaya (rich/abundant).
2. coconut jam / "kaya" jam -> Malay: kaya, also seri-kaya in Malaysia, but srikaya (Indonesian spelling) in Indonesia is sugar-apple.

[SimL]

Hi niuc,

In Australia, it's sometimes called "egg jam" but I've always thought that the name doesn't make it sound very appealing. "Coconut jam" sounds a lot nicer.

Found this on Wikipedia; it's even got a reference to Hokkien, and a transcription in Chinese characters!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coconut_jam.

[niuc]

Hi Sim

In Singapore so far I have never heard people call it coconut jam, only "kaya". And actually I didn't know the term, I searched wikipedia using "kaya" then got the term!

May be in SE Asia it is written as 咖吔, I am not sure. However "ka-iā" seems to be 'ka1-ia7'... then it is slightly different from Bagan 'ka1-ia8'. Here people pronounce it the same way as Bagan variant. How do you say it in Penang?

[SimL]

However "ka-iā" seems to be 'ka1-ia7'... then it is slightly different from Bagan 'ka1-ia8'. Here people pronounce it the same way as Bagan variant. How do you say it in Penang?

Hi niuc,

I pronounce it "ka3/7-ya1".

Notes:
1. Pseudo-sandhi on the first syllable - I don't distinguish 3 from 7.
2. I don't have a ru-tone on the second syllable.
3. I have "ya" rather than "ia" on the second syllable. To me, a Hokkien "ia" begins with a very light glottal stop (as in German, but a lighter one) - for example, the way I say "wild" is "ia2" (i.e. with a very light initial glottal stop, IPA [ʔ]) - whereas when I write "ya", I am trying to convey the fact that I begin this syllable (in ka-ya) with a continuant . This is the same distinction as between the words "ear" [ʔiə(r)] and "year" [jiə(r)] in some varieties of English.