Variants!

[SimL]

Sim - are you able to add tones to your list? Some of the words are unfamiliar to me.

Hi Andrew,

Oh dear! I started doing that, but then gave up, because I often only know the running-tones of the first syllable (because I often don't know what word/character the first syllable represents, and have no idea what its standing-tone might be). Also, my usual problem with 3/7 for the standing tone, if I don't know another compound where the last syllable occurs in non-final position.

But, as you ask for it, I'll try.

to throw away: ha1-kak8 (Penang), kok4-sak8 (Amoy) [perhaps hat8-kak8, as I think Douglas considers the first syllable to be another pronunciation of "hiet4" (which to me, means "to litter, to scatter")]

dirty: la3/7-sam5 (Penang), lap8-sap8 (Amoy)

night-time: am1-mE5 (Penang), am2-mi5, mi7-si5 (Amoy) [here I know the citation tone of am, it's am3, and I have the specific Penang Hokkien sandhi rule tone-3 -> tone-1]

handkerchief: pan3/7-jiu5 (Penang), chiu1-kun1 (Amoy)

10-cents: ci(t)4-puat8 (Penang), ci(t)4-kak8 (Amoy)

cheap: pan3/7-gi5 (Penang), phiN1(?) (Amoy)

to vomit: au2 (Penang), tO3/7 (Amoy)

neck: am3/7-a1-kun2 (Penang), am3/7-kun2 (Amoy)

all: ka1-liau2 (Penang), cong2 (Amoy)

dishes to go with rice: sam1-phue3/7 (Penang), mi3-phe3/7 (Amoy) [here I'm pretty sure it's ph(u)e3, because my mother says "mi3-phe2-tu5" for the gauze-walled food cupboard (where the legs used to rest in 4 earthenware "cups" filled with water, to stop ants getting to the food), which was used to store cooked food overnight, before fridges were invented. In my youth, many households had both a fridge and such a cupboard, but I think these days only fridges are used]

spirit medium: ki3/7-tong5 (Penang), tang7-ki? (Taiwan)

a little bit: tam3/7-poh8 (Penang), sio1-khua2 (Amoy)

rice gruel: moi5 (Penang), be5 (Amoy) [might just be two pronunciations of the same word]

to wear glasses: cheng3 bak-kiaN (Penang), kua1? bak-kiaN (Amoy) [The Penang form is probably influenced by English "to wear", and might be considered "sloppy" usage. For example, we say "thi-tho guitar, thi-tho khim" for "to play the guitar, to play the piano", because of English "to play".]

to stop, pause for a moment: hEnh4 (Penang), hioh8 (Amoy) [this one I'm a bit unsure of, maybe they mean two different things]

to shut the door: kam1-mui5 (Penang), kiuN7-mng5 (Amoy) [mentioned endless number of times here already. Again, "kam3" in citation form, to "kam1-" in sandhi form in Penang Hokkien.]

to touch: bong1 (Penang), mOh8 (?Amoy) [might just be two pronunciations of the same word, but unusual as one is ru-tone, and one ends in nasal; I think this "mOh8" is the one that keeps coming up on those internet pages "What Hokkien names not to name your child": "Monica Ch'ng" (= "feel your bum")! ]

great-grandfather/mother: a3/7-cO2 (Penang), thai2?-kong1/thai2?-ma2 (Amoy)

fast, quick: khuai3 (Penang), kin2 (Amoy)

spoon: khau3/7-kiong1, thau3/7-kiong1 (Penang), thng7-si5 (Amoy) [1. I've always pronounced it "khau-kiong" (perhaps an association with "scraping"), but I believe many people say "thau-kiong" in Penang. 2. Perhaps a "thng-si" is a different sort of spoon from a "khau-/thau-kiong", I'm not sure. There's the metal spoon with the long stem - the "European" spoon, and there's the Chinese spoon, which is sort of a (bent) L-shape, made of porcelain. Perhaps these two terms distinguish these two types, but I'm not sure. The metal, European one is what I call a "khau-kiong", I don't have a word for the porcelain, Chinese one.]

ear: hi3-a2 (Penang), hi7 (Amoy)

aeroplane: pue7-cun5 (Penang), pue7-ki1 (Amoy)

rubber: chiu3-leng1 (Penang), chiu3-ni1 (Amoy) [already mentioned]

itchy: ga3-tai2 (Penang), ciuN3/7 (Amoy) [Penang word is borrowed from Malay "gatal", so perhaps should be on a different list]

Andrew: would love to know which words are unfamiliar to you, and what you might use instead for the English term given.

[SimL]

Hi Andrew,

What is your usage for "thau1-bih8"?

[SimL]

We also use pang (is it not pang7?) in the sense of drop me off, e.g. "pang wa ti ban-san" (drop me off at the market). I think you would have to be in the car already, if not you would say "cai wa khi ban-san"

Nice. My usage exactly too.

So far, all usages indeed relate to "release". Your example puts this into focus perfectly: only used when being "released" from the car.

I've been wondering for years if "ban-san" is a 'corruption' of the Malay word "pasar". I may have read it somewhere before, but it has always seemed a bit far-fetched to me, because of the final nasal on the first syllable, but, stranger things have been known to happen. [BTW, for Ah-bin's benefit: this is "ban3-san1" (with the usual qualification that this is a pseudo-sandhi tone on the first syllable).]

[SimL]

I think you would have to be in the car already, if not you would say "cai wa khi ban-san"

I think "chua3/7 wa khi ban-san" might also be acceptable. Strictly, "chua3/7" is "lead, guide, show me the way", but by a slight shift in meaning, I think it could also mean "take in the car", "give a lift to, in a car". Do you agree?

[Andrew]

neck: am3/7-a1-kun2 (Penang), am3/7-kun2 (Amoy)

spirit medium: ki3/7-tong5 (Penang), tang7-ki? (Taiwan)

to stop, pause for a moment: hEnh4 (Penang), hioh8 (Amoy) [this one I'm a bit unsure of, maybe they mean two different things]

rubber: chiu3-leng1 (Penang), chiu3-ni1 (Amoy) [already mentioned]

Sim - the above are the Penang words I wasn't familiar with - not because I knew other words, but simply because I never learnt how to say them. I suppose for pause/stop I would say tan2 or theng5. I am particularly bad with parts of the body, though I am aware that you have posted a list of them. Of course there were Amoy/Taiwan words as well.

[Andrew]

I think you would have to be in the car already, if not you would say "cai wa khi ban-san"

I think "chua3/7 wa khi ban-san" might also be acceptable. Strictly, "chua3/7" is "lead, guide, show me the way", but by a slight shift in meaning, I think it could also mean "take in the car", "give a lift to, in a car". Do you agree?

It sounds fine - in fact I never knew chhua7 meant anything other than to take someone somewhere.

As does your sentence with thau-bih (I think), although one could probably say "gia5 X khi thau-bih ti Y"

Apparently pasar -> pa-sat, e.g. pa-sat-ke (Market St, George Town). Bangsal -> ban-san.

[Ah-bin]

These are all great, it's nice to sort out how the words can actually be used too, like pang 放
By the way "to release" was the original meaning of the word in Old Chinese, and it's Mandarin that has altered it.

aeroplane: pue7-cun5 (Penang), pue7-ki1 (Amoy)

....and hui1ki1 in modern Taiwanese

Came across some more today:

Taiwanese se-seng-khu 洗身軀 vs. Penang chang-ek for "take a shower" (in NZ we always say "have a shower")

so bathroom (the real one, not the American euphemism for toilet) is

se-seng-khu-keng 洗身軀間 in Taiwan (I think) and today in an Amoy dictionary I saw se-seng-khu-pang 洗身軀房

Being pregnant....
Taiwanese 有身 u-sin Penang pEN-kiaN 病囝

[niuc]

Is this just a contamination from English, where hide can mean both hiding oneself and hiding other objects? In other people's varieties of Hokkien, does "thau-bih" only mean "hiding oneself", as Douglas implies?

In my variant, 'thau1-bi4' or mostly as 'bi4' is used for human, never for things. For things, we say 'siu1' and 'thau1-siu1'.

We also use pang (is it not pang7?) in the sense of drop me off, e.g. "pang wa ti ban-san" (drop me off at the market).

'pang3-gua2 ti7-pa2-sat4' means "to leave me at the market" with the sense of either not allowing me to go along or go home without me. For "drop me off at the market", I'd say 'ho`7-gua2 ti7-pa2-sat4 lo8(-chia1')'.

Taiwanese se-seng-khu 洗身軀 vs. Penang chang-ek for "take a shower" (in NZ we always say "have a shower")

In my variant, 'sue2-sin1-khu1' is different from 'cang5-ik8'. The former means to have a body wash with a piece of cloth, the latter is to take a shower.

se-seng-khu-keng 洗身軀間 in Taiwan (I think) and today in an Amoy dictionary I saw se-seng-khu-pang 洗身軀房

Mine is 浴間 'ik8-king1'.

Taiwanese 有身 u-sin Penang pEN-kiaN 病囝

Stricly speaking both are different, 'u7-sin1' is pregnant, 'pi*7-kia*2' is symptoms (nausea etc) of being pregnant.

[SimL]

Hi Andrew,

Yes, body parts are difficult. There are heaps of normal ones I didn't know in my youth either, like "knuckle" or "elbow".

>> spirit medium: ki3/7-tong5 (Penang), tang7-ki? (Taiwan)

I've always been fascinated by them. After I grew up, I found out that my mum found them all a bit grisly, and so discouraged my dad from taking me to see them (as in 'to watch them', not to 'to consult them'!), which is why I never actually saw any ki-tong performing until after I was an adult. I do understand my mother's point of view: some of the things they do are a bit extreme!

There were a couple of pieces of "cultural information" which I'd like to share with other Forum members, in connection with this though. This is stuff I learned when I "interviewed" my father about his youth. They relate to the 九皇爺 Kiu Ong Ia Festival (I notice it's more commonly referred to as Kau Ong Ia, but my family always used the literary pronunciation for 九 in this context).

As many people here probably know, it's a 9-day vegetarian festival, in honour of a deity which doesn't have an actual representation as a human figure (or animal, or any other figure, for that matter) - i.e. there is no easily recognizable "idol" for which one can say "oh, that's the 九皇爺". Instead this deity is supposed to be connected to 9 brothers and the stars in the Big Dipper. This festival was and is very strongly associated with spirit mediumship. If I understand correctly, this deity and the festival is also unique to Hokkien speakers, in S.E. Asia.

When my father was young it was celebrated on a very much larger scale in Penang than it is nowadays. The mediums would do all the standard things one can read about in anthropology/ethnology books describing the 九皇爺 festival (I've read 2 of these books): hitting their backs with spiked iron-balls attached to a stick with a chain, washing their hands in boiling oil, and the piercing of the body. I think these were the main "spectacular" things the mediums did. In addition, there would be fire-walking, which was done also by the devotees (i.e. lay-people who were not spirit mediums).

One of the most important aspects of the festival was/is vegetarianism. The definition of "vegetarian" was very strict: not just no meat and fish, but absolutely no animal-based products, so no eggs or milk (or lard, or butter, etc). I suppose one might even say it was a "vegan" diet, even though the term vegan wasn't really known in those days. In its "strictest" form, lay-people would eat only this pure vegetarian food for the entire 9 days that the festival lasted. In very strict households, they even had separate pots and pans, crockery, and forks and spoons (Babas always ate either with their hands, or with forks and spoons). These were specific items which had never come into contact with animal products. Every year, at the start of the festival, they would be taken out and used, and at the end of the festival, they would be put away again, until the next year. My father's family never did this, and indeed, most members of his family never did the full 9 days. But many members of the family would be vegetarian for 3 days of the festival.

The devotees who did adhere to the full 9 days of vegetarianism would be entitled to wear pure white. These were the people who would then do the fire-walking, as a demonstration of their faith.

Another aspect of the festival was the spirit mediums. They would go into trance, and (when "the god had entered their body") they could do all the extreme things mentioned above, without feeling any pain. This too was meant to show their faith in and devotion to the deity. They would do this also in a long procession through the streets of Penang. (In fact, there were always various different processions, proceeding from different temples, during the festival.)

When my father was young, on the day of the procession, the front door of every household would be left open (quite an exceptional thing in urban Malaysia, certainly nowadays and but even in those days). This was for a very specific reason. Namely, as the procession proceeded down the street (with people's homes / shophouses on both sides of the street), the mediums would every now and again "get inspired" or "sense something". They would then dash into the people's homes, running into their living room, kitchen, perhaps sometimes even upstairs into the bedrooms (again, something which almost never occurs in Chinese households, where only family members ever get beyond the first 廳 "thiaN1"; not even friends usually got beyond the first "thiaN1", let alone total strangers, which is what these mediums were). Once inside the house, the mediums would run around wildly, waving their swords and cracking their (horsehair?) whips, "driving away demons and other evil influences". So this is why people left their doors open: if - when processing past your house - the medium(s) felt that there were evil influences in the house which needed to be driven away, then he/they could dash in and "do their work". My father remembers this happening in his home, and how dramatic and "frightening" it was!

In any case, the celebration of the 九皇爺 is much less elaborate these days in Penang. The last time I went to one (sometime around 2002 I think), there was no fire-walking, no spiked-balls, no boiling oil. Perhaps I went to the "wrong" temple, but the only thing I saw was one medium (and even then, he looked more like a monk than a medium), with one (very thin) spike through his cheeks (and I was, to be honest, not sure if he really had a spike through his cheeks). It was interesting nevertheless, and I did burn some incense and pray to the deity, and I did join the groups of people lining up to have their clothes stamped. This was another aspect of the festival which has been described by ethnologists: the people conducting the festival (not the mediums, more just the "temple authorities") will stamp devotees' clothes with red stamps (the one I got was about 8 cm x 8 cm). These stamps are then believed to "offer protection" to the wearer of the clothes. If people are too busy or ill to go, then their relatives can take their clothes along with them, and get them stamped.

As I mentioned above, the festival is no longer celebrated on such a grand scale in Penang nowadays. One distinctive thing (still?) present was that there were vegetarian food stalls all over the urban area of the city. These had lots of yellow flags and bunting fluttering in the wind, a sign that they were vegetarian food stalls specially set up for the festival. This enabled many people to eat large amounts of vegetarian food easily, for however many days of the festival they felt like being vegetarian.

Anyway, this entry has turned out a bit longer than I originally intended, because I felt I needed to explain some background to the whole festival. The two specific pieces of information I originally wanted to share were that: 1) there were special pot and pans and dishes set aside, which were only used once a year, and 2) the front door of all the houses was left unlocked. I wanted to share these because I hadn't read about them in any of the descriptions of the festivals written by anthropologists/ethnologists.

In the next reply, I'll post some youtube links to the "same" festival, as it is celebrated nowadays in Thailand (Phuket). Everything shown there matches what I've read about how this festival was celebrated in Singapore (and how my father experienced it in Penang), in the first half of the 20th Century.

I should warn readers though that some of the scenes are very graphic, and not for the faint-hearted.

[SimL]

The youtube links. Please view with caution, some scenes are very "strong".

Body piercing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouO5jy3l ... re=related [1/1]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hpFLm3W6 ... re=related [1/3]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xS4sduVsWMI&feature=fvw [2/3]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ofmf0Qyj ... re=related [3/3]

Boiling oil:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUpfpL-V ... re=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SlbJYqjz6s

Wikipedia link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_Emperor_Gods_Festival