Dear Paul,
> I know that this is off topic but I find it very interesting when you put little examples of 台 山 話. Although I am English, I am able to speak Cantonese. My wife is from Hong Kong and my mother- in-law came originally from 台 山 area,also one of our close friends here in England is from 恩平(which is I believe like 台 山 also 四邑)It would be interesting for me to pick up some 台 山 話, even though I normally communicate with my mother- in-law and our friends in Cantonese.
It’s nice to hear of your interest in Taishanese.
Since there are no resources, either on-line or off-, I think the best way for you to learn Taishanese would be to ask your mother-in-law to speak some Taishanese for you.
Or if your wife speaks Taishanese, then perhaps you could ask her to speak some for you.
Here is a list of words that I think you should get her to say that will give you a better idea of the Taishanese dialect:
I, we, he, they, you, you (plural), hear, understand, four, think, Mandarin, jade, fish, Taiwan, Thailand, watch, bridge, goodbye, good, hair, eat and vegetable.
> Apologies to all the Hokkien /Teochew people for using their forum to raise a Cantonese language question.
Yes, perhaps this does belong in the Cantonese forum. But since all the Chinese dialects are related I find that reading about the other dialects help me learn more about my own dialect especially since there are no resources for learning about Taishanese.
Kobo-Daishi, PLLA.
A word for "Chinese" in Hokkien
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Nobuho Zheng
Re: A word for "Chinese" in Hokkien
Ken wrote:
> Hi,
> The book I recommended, 'The Legend of Zheng Zhilong' was wriiten by > Chen Wende and not Xu Wende as I previously claimed. Sorry for the > mistake.
> Anyway, despite the kind of a 'rediculous' claim made by some Japanese > on Taiwan, Zheng Chenggong or Tei Seiko (in Japanese) is a folk legend > in Japan. 'KokuSenya Kassen' or 'The Battles of Guo Xing Ye (Koxinga)' > written by the famous writer, Chikamatsu Monzaeron during the > Tokugawa period, is a great Japanese classical work that celebrates the > heroic tales of Zheng Chenggong, a legendary man of military capability and > scholarly virtues. A movie on him was made in China and has been shown > in the past 2 years. It was also shown in Japan to mark the 30th > anniversary of the normalisation of Sino-Japanese ties.
>
>
http://www.kassen.jp/
[%sig%]
> Hi,
> The book I recommended, 'The Legend of Zheng Zhilong' was wriiten by > Chen Wende and not Xu Wende as I previously claimed. Sorry for the > mistake.
> Anyway, despite the kind of a 'rediculous' claim made by some Japanese > on Taiwan, Zheng Chenggong or Tei Seiko (in Japanese) is a folk legend > in Japan. 'KokuSenya Kassen' or 'The Battles of Guo Xing Ye (Koxinga)' > written by the famous writer, Chikamatsu Monzaeron during the > Tokugawa period, is a great Japanese classical work that celebrates the > heroic tales of Zheng Chenggong, a legendary man of military capability and > scholarly virtues. A movie on him was made in China and has been shown > in the past 2 years. It was also shown in Japan to mark the 30th > anniversary of the normalisation of Sino-Japanese ties.
>
>
http://www.kassen.jp/
[%sig%]
Re: A word for "Chinese" in Hokkien
I heard that Zheng Chenggong's father or him were actually pirates before becoming officials...is that true?
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Ken
Re: A word for "Chinese" in Hokkien
Zheng Chenggong's father Zheng Zhilong started off as a sea merchant when he was 18, who began a life of sea adventures. Being a sea merchant in those days was not easy as one need to deal with government officials, pirates, and foreigners (include Europeans and Japanese). A successful merchant must also be armed and be able to grasp opportunities thru ways of diplomacy and even military force.
Zheng Zhilong built his career in a very complicated environment in which he had to protect his interests from rivals that included the Ming government officials who suppressed sea trade and migration, rival pirates and Europeans. At times, he had to resort to piracy against Ming government vessels and rival pirates. Zheng Zhilong used such naval military strategy to build a dominant position in the seas of East Asia. Eventually other merchants ships sought his protection from the other pirates by paying him protection fees as Zheng Zhilong became the most influential sea lord; all these thru combining his ability in military force, diplomacy and entrepreneurship. He was so powerful that the Ming navy suffered repeated defeats by him when they tried to suppress him. Eventually, the last Ming Emperor, Chongzhen, impressed by his might, decided to buy him over thru offering him the post of 'Fujian Zong Bin', 'Military governor of Fujian'. This made Zheng Zhilong the most powerful man in Southeast China at that time. In fact, when he became an official, all admimnistrative expenses were borne out of his own wealth. He built his own army and personally administered the region under his control without a single cent from the Ming court in Beijing, who had trouble supporting themselves as peasants rebellions and the Manchu invasion were happening. He had close links with the Japanese in Nagasaki and Hirado. He had a solid friendship with the Lord of Hirado (Song bu Long Xin in Chinese). Later he married Tagawa, the daughter of a famous physician and together they had Zheng Chenggong. In fact there were a number Japanese who worked in his camp, who assisted him in his career. Some even fought bravely with his son Zheng Chenggong against the Manchus.
Zheng Chenggong was born in Hirado in 1624 and returned to China at the age of 7. Zheng Zhilong gave him the best training and education to make him a capable military-scholar who could serve the Ming court as a top grade official. At the age of 21, Zheng Chenggong was given the imperial surname (Guo Xing Ye) by the Southern Ming Emperor Longwu who was impressed by his character and ability and, was tasked to command the Southern Ming Imperial Army against the Manchus. After Emperor Longwu died, Emperor Yongli took over in Guangxi province and conferred on Zheng Chenggong the title of ' King Yanping'. All in all, Zheng Chenggong fought the Manchus for 14 years and then defeated the Dutch to recover Taiwan in 1662. In the minds of many Chinese, Zheng Chenggong is a symbol of complete unification of China & Taiwan. Even his most hated enemy, the Manchus were impressed by his staunch loyalty to the Ming dynasty that Emperors Kangxi and Guangxu sang praises of him.
Today, if one visits Gulangyu at Xiamen, one can see a huge white statute of Zheng Chenggong overlooking the straits of Taiwan.
Zheng Zhilong built his career in a very complicated environment in which he had to protect his interests from rivals that included the Ming government officials who suppressed sea trade and migration, rival pirates and Europeans. At times, he had to resort to piracy against Ming government vessels and rival pirates. Zheng Zhilong used such naval military strategy to build a dominant position in the seas of East Asia. Eventually other merchants ships sought his protection from the other pirates by paying him protection fees as Zheng Zhilong became the most influential sea lord; all these thru combining his ability in military force, diplomacy and entrepreneurship. He was so powerful that the Ming navy suffered repeated defeats by him when they tried to suppress him. Eventually, the last Ming Emperor, Chongzhen, impressed by his might, decided to buy him over thru offering him the post of 'Fujian Zong Bin', 'Military governor of Fujian'. This made Zheng Zhilong the most powerful man in Southeast China at that time. In fact, when he became an official, all admimnistrative expenses were borne out of his own wealth. He built his own army and personally administered the region under his control without a single cent from the Ming court in Beijing, who had trouble supporting themselves as peasants rebellions and the Manchu invasion were happening. He had close links with the Japanese in Nagasaki and Hirado. He had a solid friendship with the Lord of Hirado (Song bu Long Xin in Chinese). Later he married Tagawa, the daughter of a famous physician and together they had Zheng Chenggong. In fact there were a number Japanese who worked in his camp, who assisted him in his career. Some even fought bravely with his son Zheng Chenggong against the Manchus.
Zheng Chenggong was born in Hirado in 1624 and returned to China at the age of 7. Zheng Zhilong gave him the best training and education to make him a capable military-scholar who could serve the Ming court as a top grade official. At the age of 21, Zheng Chenggong was given the imperial surname (Guo Xing Ye) by the Southern Ming Emperor Longwu who was impressed by his character and ability and, was tasked to command the Southern Ming Imperial Army against the Manchus. After Emperor Longwu died, Emperor Yongli took over in Guangxi province and conferred on Zheng Chenggong the title of ' King Yanping'. All in all, Zheng Chenggong fought the Manchus for 14 years and then defeated the Dutch to recover Taiwan in 1662. In the minds of many Chinese, Zheng Chenggong is a symbol of complete unification of China & Taiwan. Even his most hated enemy, the Manchus were impressed by his staunch loyalty to the Ming dynasty that Emperors Kangxi and Guangxu sang praises of him.
Today, if one visits Gulangyu at Xiamen, one can see a huge white statute of Zheng Chenggong overlooking the straits of Taiwan.
Re: A word for "Chinese" in Hokkien
I know that there is a temple in Tainan in memory of him.
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Ken
Re: A word for "Chinese" in Hokkien
Hi,
In fact there is a number of temples in Taiwan that are used to commemorate Zheng Chenggong who is also regarded as the founder of Taiwan. He first set up administration in Tainan after he defeated the Dutch. Tainan is hence a historical place where the Chinese first settled in when they migrated from the mainland during the late Ming and early Qing dynasty (from the 1660s onwards).
In fact there is a number of temples in Taiwan that are used to commemorate Zheng Chenggong who is also regarded as the founder of Taiwan. He first set up administration in Tainan after he defeated the Dutch. Tainan is hence a historical place where the Chinese first settled in when they migrated from the mainland during the late Ming and early Qing dynasty (from the 1660s onwards).
Re: A word for "Chinese" in Hokkien
Thanks for all this information!
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Ken
Re: A word for
Hi Ah Hiong,
The reference to Zheng Chenggong as a pirate is a term more frequently used by some westerners. I suppose they just cannot stomach the humiliating defeat of the Dutch who were forced to leave Taiwan after 38 years of colonial rule.
Zheng Chenggong was never a pirate but a highly revered Ming dynasty official, who held the titles of 'Lord of the Imperial Surname' (Guo Xingye) and 'King of Yan Ping Prefecture'. He is a national hero among the Chinese and also a folk legend among some Japanese.
The reference to Zheng Chenggong as a pirate is a term more frequently used by some westerners. I suppose they just cannot stomach the humiliating defeat of the Dutch who were forced to leave Taiwan after 38 years of colonial rule.
Zheng Chenggong was never a pirate but a highly revered Ming dynasty official, who held the titles of 'Lord of the Imperial Surname' (Guo Xingye) and 'King of Yan Ping Prefecture'. He is a national hero among the Chinese and also a folk legend among some Japanese.
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Miles
Re: A word for "Chinese" in Hokkien
Hi everyone! I am a Filipino-Chinese and most chinese here in the Philippines speak Hokkien. When we refer to chinese we use the word "nan nang" or "lan nang". This seems different from the "tng lang" that you use. I asked others regarding this but many do not seem to know what "lan nang" means. My parents explained to me that this is actually some kind of variation of "lan lang" or "us people" or "we people". They say it is used to differentiate the chinese here as opposed to the local people whom we call "hwan na". It is used to imply that we, unlike they, are "people" and that they are simply animals or barbarians. Many chinese here also do not know what they mean when they use the term "hwan na". They do not usually intend to use this term in a deregatory manner as they have been brought up using this term to refer to Filipinos. I was told that this actually means something like "barbarian" and that it was used originally to be deregatory? However I find most chinese here do not have as low an opinion of Filipinos as before and do not try to be offensive but they still use the term "hwan na" out of habit. Also "tsao hwan" is used as an especially deregatory term to refer to those Filipinos who are particularly bad mannered or uneducated which means "smelly barbarian". I would like to know if these interpretations are correct and if these terms really do mean these things. Most chinese here use these terms out of habit and not out of malice. Sorry for the long post. Hope someone can help me out =)