Niuc
Well, it is difficult to judge between Penang/Medan and Melaka/Muar accents. Probably the Penang/Medan Hokkien has slightly higher pitch.
"15" = fifteen, "18" = eighteen.
"Busybody" in Hokkien
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hong
Re: "Busybody" in Hokkien
I think that are two explantions for this.
The sub sects of chuan chew are not perfectly the same pitch.Penang have mostly hui an ,Lam an ,chin kang(chuah surname) and heng an but very few eng chun.However, I think Malaka speak with too many malay words in their hokkien like semua,pun ,agak-agak etc.
Secondly,a few but not many chang sects living there in North malaysia have some effects on chuan chew people.Recently an article in newspaper said that minnan people in north malaysia are from chang chew because the speak lu, etc but someone replied that 70% of minnan people in malaysia are from chuan chew .There are only a few chang chew huiykuan compare to many chuanchew huiy kuan in malaysia.
The sub sects of chuan chew are not perfectly the same pitch.Penang have mostly hui an ,Lam an ,chin kang(chuah surname) and heng an but very few eng chun.However, I think Malaka speak with too many malay words in their hokkien like semua,pun ,agak-agak etc.
Secondly,a few but not many chang sects living there in North malaysia have some effects on chuan chew people.Recently an article in newspaper said that minnan people in north malaysia are from chang chew because the speak lu, etc but someone replied that 70% of minnan people in malaysia are from chuan chew .There are only a few chang chew huiykuan compare to many chuanchew huiy kuan in malaysia.
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Casey
Re: "Busybody" in Hokkien
Hong, Niuc
It may be true that many people in North Malaysia are of Hui7 Oa*1 origin. (I have come across this on other websites before but I forgot where.) However, the Penang accent is definitely not Hui7 Oa*1 accent but closer to Chiang1 Chiu1 accent and I am wondering how it is so.
Hui7 Oa*1 accent is a sub-group of Chuan5 Chiu1 accent and more similar to Ing2 Chhun1 accent than to Chiang1 Chiu1 accent.
As for the "Baba Hokkien" of Melaka (similar to the "Baba Hokkien" of Singapore), then it is closer to the Penang accent, (at least to my ears, it is so).
Talking about "Baba Language" of Malaysia and Singapore, I remember that there was an article talking about it. It mentioned that the "Baba Language" could be divided into two parts: the "Baba Hokkien" and the "Baba Malay". It was presented in some conference in China, an interesting article indeed.
It may be true that many people in North Malaysia are of Hui7 Oa*1 origin. (I have come across this on other websites before but I forgot where.) However, the Penang accent is definitely not Hui7 Oa*1 accent but closer to Chiang1 Chiu1 accent and I am wondering how it is so.
Hui7 Oa*1 accent is a sub-group of Chuan5 Chiu1 accent and more similar to Ing2 Chhun1 accent than to Chiang1 Chiu1 accent.
As for the "Baba Hokkien" of Melaka (similar to the "Baba Hokkien" of Singapore), then it is closer to the Penang accent, (at least to my ears, it is so).
Talking about "Baba Language" of Malaysia and Singapore, I remember that there was an article talking about it. It mentioned that the "Baba Language" could be divided into two parts: the "Baba Hokkien" and the "Baba Malay". It was presented in some conference in China, an interesting article indeed.
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yisheng
Re: "Busybody" in Hokkien
Hi everyone!
I've been lurking for quite some time, reading all the discussions here and would like to thank you all for improving my knowledge of the Hokkien dialect.
As to why people in northern malaysia, from taiping upwards speak with the chiang ciu accent, I have a theory.
The very first people to venture out from the Hokkien province came from the Chiang chiu region. I've read this in a book in the National University of Singapore library. This was because Chiang Chiu was the main focus of trade with other areas including Southeast Asia, before the focus shifted to the Chuan Chiu region later when the foreign powers did commerce with China. I suspect that these people later married the local malays and the Baba Malay dialect was born. This dialect was still Malay based but with the infusion of Hokkien terms. I believe that the present Baba Penang Hokkien, which is based on Hokkien with Malay terms is an evolution of the Baba Malay dialect. I'm not sure about its similarities to the Baba Hokkien in Malacca and Singapore but as Casey pointed out, it sounded quite similar to his ears.
How the Baba Malay dialect evolved into Baba Hokkien and gained prominence in Penang I'm not sure but what I know is that one great-great-grandmother of mine, who is a nyonya spoke Baba Hokkien. Her children all spoke Baba Hokkien although her husband spoke Hakka. So, in my opinion, because most children follow their mother, their speech would similarly be their "mother's tongue". So, that is how Baba Hokkien escaped the Chuan Chiu influences. I can quote similar examples from my paternal grandfather and grandmother as their respective fathers were from An Khoe and Hui Oa but their mothers were "nyonyas". Italics because they were not nyonyas in the strict sense. I believe this is how Baba Hokkien gained prominence because the local nyonyas were more willing to marry the new chinese immigrants instead of among themselves as may be the case in Malacca and Singapore.
There is a blank space in my theory as to how Baba Malay evolved into Baba Hokkien in Penang. I'm hoping someone can help me fill this gap.
yisheng
I've been lurking for quite some time, reading all the discussions here and would like to thank you all for improving my knowledge of the Hokkien dialect.
As to why people in northern malaysia, from taiping upwards speak with the chiang ciu accent, I have a theory.
The very first people to venture out from the Hokkien province came from the Chiang chiu region. I've read this in a book in the National University of Singapore library. This was because Chiang Chiu was the main focus of trade with other areas including Southeast Asia, before the focus shifted to the Chuan Chiu region later when the foreign powers did commerce with China. I suspect that these people later married the local malays and the Baba Malay dialect was born. This dialect was still Malay based but with the infusion of Hokkien terms. I believe that the present Baba Penang Hokkien, which is based on Hokkien with Malay terms is an evolution of the Baba Malay dialect. I'm not sure about its similarities to the Baba Hokkien in Malacca and Singapore but as Casey pointed out, it sounded quite similar to his ears.
How the Baba Malay dialect evolved into Baba Hokkien and gained prominence in Penang I'm not sure but what I know is that one great-great-grandmother of mine, who is a nyonya spoke Baba Hokkien. Her children all spoke Baba Hokkien although her husband spoke Hakka. So, in my opinion, because most children follow their mother, their speech would similarly be their "mother's tongue". So, that is how Baba Hokkien escaped the Chuan Chiu influences. I can quote similar examples from my paternal grandfather and grandmother as their respective fathers were from An Khoe and Hui Oa but their mothers were "nyonyas". Italics because they were not nyonyas in the strict sense. I believe this is how Baba Hokkien gained prominence because the local nyonyas were more willing to marry the new chinese immigrants instead of among themselves as may be the case in Malacca and Singapore.
There is a blank space in my theory as to how Baba Malay evolved into Baba Hokkien in Penang. I'm hoping someone can help me fill this gap.
yisheng
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hong
Re: "Busybody" in Hokkien
I am thinking how about philippines chinese which mainly from chang chew.Do they speak minnan with a lot with filipino languages?
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Niuc
Re: "Busybody" in Hokkien
Casey, Hong & Yisheng
Thanks to you all, now I know more about the history of Hokkien immigration to Southeast Asia. Btw, how do you define the term 'Baba Hokkien' since Hokkien in China also have some words loaned from/through Malay?
Casey, thanks for your opinion & the explanation (15 & 18). It's funny that my eyes didn't see them that way, hehe
Yisheng, nice to have you here. Thanks for sharing your theory, I really learn a lot. You did a remarkable research. Please continue to share more.
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Thanks to you all, now I know more about the history of Hokkien immigration to Southeast Asia. Btw, how do you define the term 'Baba Hokkien' since Hokkien in China also have some words loaned from/through Malay?
Casey, thanks for your opinion & the explanation (15 & 18). It's funny that my eyes didn't see them that way, hehe
Yisheng, nice to have you here. Thanks for sharing your theory, I really learn a lot. You did a remarkable research. Please continue to share more.
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Casey
Re: "Busybody" in Hokkien
Hi, Yisheng!
Welcome to this forum. Your theory on the evolution of "Baba Hokkien" is interesting and I believe that the real story will be revealed more and more through further research. Thanks for sharing your view with us.
Hong
The Hokkien dialect spoken in the Philippines is mostly in the Chuan5 Chiu1 accent, not the Chiang1 Chiu1 accent. Yes, they do use Tagalog words, just like us using Malay words, in their usual Hokkien conversation.
Niuc
"Baba Hokkien" is the dialect spoken by the straits-born Chinese (usually called Baba (male) and Nyonya (female)). It is expressed in a specific manner, usually mixed with a lot of Malay words. If one does not know much about the Malay language, then one may get lost in the conversation. However, it is difficult to give a good definition.
Welcome to this forum. Your theory on the evolution of "Baba Hokkien" is interesting and I believe that the real story will be revealed more and more through further research. Thanks for sharing your view with us.
Hong
The Hokkien dialect spoken in the Philippines is mostly in the Chuan5 Chiu1 accent, not the Chiang1 Chiu1 accent. Yes, they do use Tagalog words, just like us using Malay words, in their usual Hokkien conversation.
Niuc
"Baba Hokkien" is the dialect spoken by the straits-born Chinese (usually called Baba (male) and Nyonya (female)). It is expressed in a specific manner, usually mixed with a lot of Malay words. If one does not know much about the Malay language, then one may get lost in the conversation. However, it is difficult to give a good definition.
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yisheng
Re: "Busybody" in Hokkien
Hi Casey,
actually, I think one would need to know more of the malay language to understand "Baba Malay", as it is still a form of creolized malay but not in the case of "Baba Hokkien" of Penang. I'm not sure about the cases in Malacca and Singapore but in Penang, I don't think one needs to know Malay to understand the way Penang Hokkien is spoken. In many cases, it was after I came across the Malay word before I actually knew that it was a malay word I was using. Some words that I regularly use in hokkien conversation that are malay are:
Bak ketiak - armpit
panggan - reheat
bilan - midwife
balai - police
pagar - fence
The reason why I did not know that they were malay terms in the first place was because these words were pronounced in the Hokkien way and not the malay way. I only knew it after I started trying to learn bazaar malay.
I think this has been mentioned before but usage of Penang Hokkien does not always follow the conventional way, sometimes it follows the malay syntax.
yisheng
actually, I think one would need to know more of the malay language to understand "Baba Malay", as it is still a form of creolized malay but not in the case of "Baba Hokkien" of Penang. I'm not sure about the cases in Malacca and Singapore but in Penang, I don't think one needs to know Malay to understand the way Penang Hokkien is spoken. In many cases, it was after I came across the Malay word before I actually knew that it was a malay word I was using. Some words that I regularly use in hokkien conversation that are malay are:
Bak ketiak - armpit
panggan - reheat
bilan - midwife
balai - police
pagar - fence
The reason why I did not know that they were malay terms in the first place was because these words were pronounced in the Hokkien way and not the malay way. I only knew it after I started trying to learn bazaar malay.
I think this has been mentioned before but usage of Penang Hokkien does not always follow the conventional way, sometimes it follows the malay syntax.
yisheng
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Niuc
Re: "Busybody" in Hokkien
In our Hokkien, sometimes we can hear some people using 'agak-agak', 'pun', 'semua' but none of those mentioned by Yisheng. I don't think ours is Baba Hokkien since all those Malay words only used as variation. 'Agak-agak' is used more frequently, other than that we usually use 'ma7'/'ma7 si7' and 'long2 cong2'.
Usually we call armpit as 'kue4 e7 khang1' ('kue4 i7 khang1'?). Casey, do you know the 'hanji' for this?
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Usually we call armpit as 'kue4 e7 khang1' ('kue4 i7 khang1'?). Casey, do you know the 'hanji' for this?
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Sim
Re: armpit
Hi there Niuc,
In my version of Penang (Baba) Hokkien, we use the word "ki tiah" for armpit.
As I haven't yet mastered the Hokkien tone conventions, I will write the closest corresponding Mandarin tones: "ki3 tiah1".
Regards,
Sim.
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In my version of Penang (Baba) Hokkien, we use the word "ki tiah" for armpit.
As I haven't yet mastered the Hokkien tone conventions, I will write the closest corresponding Mandarin tones: "ki3 tiah1".
Regards,
Sim.
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