again stupid mistake from me
http://www.town-all.org.tw/93EBooks/ins ... sp?BID=201
Happy Chinese New Year!
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Mark Andrew Williamson
Hi Hong,
the answer to what you asked about peh-oe-ji is very simple.
When tone marks are used, it is much easier to read and understand a Peh-oe-ji text.
It might still be a little bit difficult for you, but with some practice it should be easy and natural.
I think for a lot of people it is because they never formally learned POJ and for that reason are guessing the sound of each word when it's really an easy system to learn in just a few minutes.
http://zh-min-nan.wikipedia.org/ is an attempt at an online encyclopedia written entirely in POJ. It uses tone marks.
But I must emphasise, such troubles are almost always largely due to lack of practice. Same goes for people not used to writing long formal articles in Cantonese, say it can't be done because they try but can't, but after some practice they have changed their minds and write long technical essays entirely in a Cantonese (using hanzi of-course).
Where I live, in 鳳凰市, there is a language spoken called "O'odham". At first people had said "This language is difficult for us to write. We can write a few sentences, but no more, and even that is difficult." so they use mostly English instead. But then some people, with a bit of practice, are writing long essays and books and articles in O'odham language, and after people practice and it is no longer difficult, it is used for business, newspaper, and even on road signs.
Mark
the answer to what you asked about peh-oe-ji is very simple.
When tone marks are used, it is much easier to read and understand a Peh-oe-ji text.
It might still be a little bit difficult for you, but with some practice it should be easy and natural.
I think for a lot of people it is because they never formally learned POJ and for that reason are guessing the sound of each word when it's really an easy system to learn in just a few minutes.
http://zh-min-nan.wikipedia.org/ is an attempt at an online encyclopedia written entirely in POJ. It uses tone marks.
But I must emphasise, such troubles are almost always largely due to lack of practice. Same goes for people not used to writing long formal articles in Cantonese, say it can't be done because they try but can't, but after some practice they have changed their minds and write long technical essays entirely in a Cantonese (using hanzi of-course).
Where I live, in 鳳凰市, there is a language spoken called "O'odham". At first people had said "This language is difficult for us to write. We can write a few sentences, but no more, and even that is difficult." so they use mostly English instead. But then some people, with a bit of practice, are writing long essays and books and articles in O'odham language, and after people practice and it is no longer difficult, it is used for business, newspaper, and even on road signs.
Mark
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hong
mark,
No way you are correct.If minnan can be easily understood in all roman alphabet,then mandarin can be written or newspapers published in hanyupinyin only.You are sending people to hell if you publish newspapers in this way.There are no such things as practice or not enough practice for beginner,just so much possible words even with tone marks.And we are talking about that guy maybe writing in cuanchiu rather than xiamen.
You already have a guy posting to ask what are you trying to say
No way you are correct.If minnan can be easily understood in all roman alphabet,then mandarin can be written or newspapers published in hanyupinyin only.You are sending people to hell if you publish newspapers in this way.There are no such things as practice or not enough practice for beginner,just so much possible words even with tone marks.And we are talking about that guy maybe writing in cuanchiu rather than xiamen.
You already have a guy posting to ask what are you trying to say
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hong
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hong
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Mark Andrew Williamson
Still waiting for a valid argument. You basically just said "You're wrong. That's like writing Mandarin in HanYu PinYin. It's evil. You are wrong, wrong, wrong."hong wrote:mark,
No way you are correct.If minnan can be easily understood in all roman alphabet,then mandarin can be written or newspapers published in hanyupinyin only.You are sending people to hell if you publish newspapers in this way.There are no such things as practice or not enough practice for beginner,just so much possible words even with tone marks.And we are talking about that guy maybe writing in cuanchiu rather than xiamen.
You already have a guy posting to ask what are you trying to say
You have not refuted:
1) Tone marks increase comprehension of POJ text
2) Practice should make it easy and natural (with Cantonese, and O'odham examples to show real-life application and past success)
3) Writers and readers of POJ encyclopaedia testimony no problem
If I disagreed with myself, I would refute like this:
1) I don't think I could refute it
2) Practice a lot myself, and use my own testimony. If it works, then I cannot refute it except by dishonesty. If it doesn't work, my own example serves as honest refutation.
3) Cannot be refuted properly because my own argument gave no quotations. So perhaps it can be refuted on lack of evidence - how do we know I really have this testimonies?
Mark
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hong
mark,
If you think the POJ can be understood by everyone,I don't care.You can write thesis on minnan using POJ.
Above web site keep on adding Hanzi to help us to understand clearly is enough to prove that reading news in pure POJ is not possible.
Why not they just write in hanzi with some POJ for words with no hanzi yet.
If you think the POJ can be understood by everyone,I don't care.You can write thesis on minnan using POJ.
Above web site keep on adding Hanzi to help us to understand clearly is enough to prove that reading news in pure POJ is not possible.
Why not they just write in hanzi with some POJ for words with no hanzi yet.
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niuc
Hi Mark
I agree that with some practice, Peh-oe-ji will become easy and natural. I read that in many many years ago POJ helped many of Hokkien peasants in reading Bible and writing letters. It's easier to learn POJ than Chinese characters (han3-ji7). Yet POJ has its own limitation too, due to large amount of homophones in Hokkien (though not as many as in Mandarin). Han3-ji7 is better in conveying meaning but much more difficult to learn. I think we need them both
What is 鳳凰市? Is it Phoenix in Arizona? Is O'odham a Native American language?
I agree that with some practice, Peh-oe-ji will become easy and natural. I read that in many many years ago POJ helped many of Hokkien peasants in reading Bible and writing letters. It's easier to learn POJ than Chinese characters (han3-ji7). Yet POJ has its own limitation too, due to large amount of homophones in Hokkien (though not as many as in Mandarin). Han3-ji7 is better in conveying meaning but much more difficult to learn. I think we need them both
What is 鳳凰市? Is it Phoenix in Arizona? Is O'odham a Native American language?
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Casey
It is interesting to note that whether writing in POJ is possible for effective communication or not became a recent hot discussion topic. My view is YES and NO.
YES: Just look at the wonderful work of the early western missionaries in the vast areas of Southern Fujian. Hymns and the Bible had been translated into POJ and popularized. Illiterate country folks who know nothing about Hanzi could communicate with one another in POJ. If POJ could not be used effectively then it must be a miracle.
NO: The problem with using Romanized Minnan nowadays is that an ordinary layman cannot spell out properly and correctly what he wishes to express due to different accents and romanization systems. Many examples may be seen in this forum (e.g, Mark’s CNY wishes is still a guessing game if he does not explain it further; or SL De's postings in Cuanciu accent which those who are not familiar with this accent might not have understood fully.) Unless everybody follows a standard Romanization system (including intonation indications and accent used, (say Xiamen accent) it will forever be so confusing and time consuming to read (and guess) a Romanized passage effectively (not to mention efficiently).
Therefore, may I suggest that whoever wishes to use romanized Minnan in his/her posting, please give translations further in English or Chinese so that the message may be fully understood. Minnan dialect learners may also be benefitted.
YES: Just look at the wonderful work of the early western missionaries in the vast areas of Southern Fujian. Hymns and the Bible had been translated into POJ and popularized. Illiterate country folks who know nothing about Hanzi could communicate with one another in POJ. If POJ could not be used effectively then it must be a miracle.
NO: The problem with using Romanized Minnan nowadays is that an ordinary layman cannot spell out properly and correctly what he wishes to express due to different accents and romanization systems. Many examples may be seen in this forum (e.g, Mark’s CNY wishes is still a guessing game if he does not explain it further; or SL De's postings in Cuanciu accent which those who are not familiar with this accent might not have understood fully.) Unless everybody follows a standard Romanization system (including intonation indications and accent used, (say Xiamen accent) it will forever be so confusing and time consuming to read (and guess) a Romanized passage effectively (not to mention efficiently).
Therefore, may I suggest that whoever wishes to use romanized Minnan in his/her posting, please give translations further in English or Chinese so that the message may be fully understood. Minnan dialect learners may also be benefitted.
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Guest
Aurelio, Andrew, Mark kap casey,
Chiaⁿ too-sia lin tui Peh-oe-ji e ki-chhi! Peh-oe-ji si chit-chiong chiaⁿ li-pian e chu-sia-he-thong, lan tioh ho-ho lai un-iong chit-e chu-sia gu-gian e kang-ku.
Lan-lang-oe / Eng-gu li-lui-bio:
kap, and
Chiaⁿ, very
too-sia, thank
lin, you (in pural form)
tui, concerning, with regard to
Peh-oe-ji, (the Oral-language writing system in the form of Roman letter, a kind of syllabic writing syatem)
e, used after a word or phrase to indicate which is an adjective
ki-chhi, support
si, is
chit-chiong, a kind of
li-pian, convenient
chu-sia-he-thong, writing system
lan, we
tioh, need
ho-ho, satisfying
lai, come
un-iong, operate, apply
chit-e, this one
chu-sia, write
gu-gian, language
kang-ku, tool
Lan-lang-oe, a language speak in the southern Hokkien, Tai-oan, south east Asia and other places.
Eng-gu, the English language
li-lui-bio, vocabulary list
Chiaⁿ too-sia lin tui Peh-oe-ji e ki-chhi! Peh-oe-ji si chit-chiong chiaⁿ li-pian e chu-sia-he-thong, lan tioh ho-ho lai un-iong chit-e chu-sia gu-gian e kang-ku.
Lan-lang-oe / Eng-gu li-lui-bio:
kap, and
Chiaⁿ, very
too-sia, thank
lin, you (in pural form)
tui, concerning, with regard to
Peh-oe-ji, (the Oral-language writing system in the form of Roman letter, a kind of syllabic writing syatem)
e, used after a word or phrase to indicate which is an adjective
ki-chhi, support
si, is
chit-chiong, a kind of
li-pian, convenient
chu-sia-he-thong, writing system
lan, we
tioh, need
ho-ho, satisfying
lai, come
un-iong, operate, apply
chit-e, this one
chu-sia, write
gu-gian, language
kang-ku, tool
Lan-lang-oe, a language speak in the southern Hokkien, Tai-oan, south east Asia and other places.
Eng-gu, the English language
li-lui-bio, vocabulary list