Niuc
The Hanzi for those words you mentioned. They are listed as follows:
"saucer": "phiat4" or "phiat4 a2" 撇仔(外来词 foreign originated term). Is this term derived from "plate", Niuc?
"dragonfly": "chhan5 ni1" 田蛉
"grasshopper": "chhao2 me2" 草蜢
"animal": "ching1 si*1" 牲牲
"help": "tao3" 斗 (sorry, I only have the input for simplified Hanzi, the Hanzi you used is correct), as in "tao3 kha1 chhiu2" 斗(骨交)手and "tao3 sa*1 kang7" 斗参共
"quarter" : "四分一" or "四分之一", just like what you have stated.
I am not sure about the true meaning of "bo5 mi7 ning1" (non-sense?) in Penang Hokkien. I would say: "bo5 li2 iu5" 无理由 (没理由) or "bo5 ha8 li2" 无合理 (不合理).
"mang kuang" or "pang kuang": in Mandarin it may be called "wu2 jing1" 芜菁 or "man4 jing1" 蔓菁. I think it does not exist in Fujian Province, hence no Hokkien term for it.
"potato": in Mandarin "ma3 ling2 shu3" 马铃薯 or "tu3 dou4" 土豆 (please do not mistaken it for peanut or groundnut, it is commonly used in northern China); in Fujian it is called "huan1 a2 han1 chu5" 番仔番薯 (in Cantonese 荷兰薯).
"aloe vera": "loo5 hoe7" or "loo5 oe7" 芦荟
"Busybody" in Hokkien
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Sim
Re: "lau siong" vs "an tsam"
Hi Miles,
Welcome to the very huge and diverse world of Hokkiens!
You may already know of this site:
http://www.tsinoy.com
If you chose "forum" from the top left, you will get to:
http://www.tsinoy.com/forum
and if you choose the "Tsinong Pinoy" forum, you will get to:
http://www.tsinoy.com/forum/viewtopics.cfm?Forum=30
which has a little bit of discussion on Hokkien in the Phillipines.
In my Penang Baba Hokkien dialect (Malaysia), we say "la3 sam5", while my maternal grandmother (from near Amoy) said "lap2 sap2". I would speculate that the reason there are so many different words, or variations on the "same" word is that in the course of time, non-literate dialect speakers allow words to "drift" in pronunciation. This is in fact the standard model for how dialects (and related languages) develop...
The key to understanding this is the fact that each generation speaks *very slightly* differently from the previous generation, i.e. the form of a language is not identical from one generation to another. This is mostly because sounds may change (very) slightly, but also because old words drop out of use, and new words develop.
Historically, we could imagine a situation where originally, a small group of people speak a relatively uniform language, in a relatively small geographical area. Then these people spread out over a larger area, and contact between them is less. Each younger generation hears in each village the language the way it is spoken by the older generation *in that village*, but in learning it, they pronounce it *slightly* differently. After a number of generations, these small differences had accumulated, so the resulting forms are quite different.
This may be easier to understand with an example. We have village A and village B. In generation 1, village A speaks a form which we will call A1, and village B speaks a form which we will call B1. In generation 2, village A speaks a form which we will call A2, and village B speaks a form which we will call B2. The same goes for generations 3, 4, 5, etc.
So, to start off with, A1 and B1 are very similar, perhaps even identical. In the next generation, A2 is slightly different from A1, and B2 is slightly different from B1 (but in a different way from the way than A2 is different from A1), so B2 is slightly different from A2. Next, A3 is slightly different from A2, and B3 is slightly different from B2 (but in a different way from the way than A3 is different from A2), so, B3 is a little bit more different from A3, etc. After many generations, the two forms of the language, e.g. A20 and B20 could be *very* different.
One can refine this basic model by adding the fact that speakers in village A may come into contact with different ethnic groups than speakers in village B, and that they hence borrow different words for specific items (e.g. Hong Kong Cantonese speakers with speakers of English vs. Macao Cantonese speakers with speakers of Portuguese; Hokkien speakers in Taiwan, Malaysia, Phillipines). You can also add the fact that some words drop out of use and other (perhaps rarer) words may come into common use. But *different* words will drop out of use in village A than in village B, and different words may come into common use in village A than in village B. These processes will further make the languages spoken in different areas slowly grow apart.
This is a very simplified presentation of the situation of course, but is a reasonable model of how - as the Chinese spread from their original home in the Yellow River Basin - the forms of the language slowly diverged, giving the present day "dialects". This is also a simplified model of how Latin developed into Portuguese, Spanish, Catalan, Provencal, French, Italian and Romanian.
The additional subtleties are that there are often influences from the standard language (the form of the language as it happens to be spoken in the capital of the country). This has the effect of bringing different dialects or languages closer together again, because they share borrowed words from the standard or dominant language.
So, all that was a rather long-winded attempt to explain why there are 4 different words for "dirty": "lau siong", "an tsam", "la sam", "lap sap". Any other readers able to provide more words for “dirty”?
[%sig%]
Welcome to the very huge and diverse world of Hokkiens!
You may already know of this site:
http://www.tsinoy.com
If you chose "forum" from the top left, you will get to:
http://www.tsinoy.com/forum
and if you choose the "Tsinong Pinoy" forum, you will get to:
http://www.tsinoy.com/forum/viewtopics.cfm?Forum=30
which has a little bit of discussion on Hokkien in the Phillipines.
In my Penang Baba Hokkien dialect (Malaysia), we say "la3 sam5", while my maternal grandmother (from near Amoy) said "lap2 sap2". I would speculate that the reason there are so many different words, or variations on the "same" word is that in the course of time, non-literate dialect speakers allow words to "drift" in pronunciation. This is in fact the standard model for how dialects (and related languages) develop...
The key to understanding this is the fact that each generation speaks *very slightly* differently from the previous generation, i.e. the form of a language is not identical from one generation to another. This is mostly because sounds may change (very) slightly, but also because old words drop out of use, and new words develop.
Historically, we could imagine a situation where originally, a small group of people speak a relatively uniform language, in a relatively small geographical area. Then these people spread out over a larger area, and contact between them is less. Each younger generation hears in each village the language the way it is spoken by the older generation *in that village*, but in learning it, they pronounce it *slightly* differently. After a number of generations, these small differences had accumulated, so the resulting forms are quite different.
This may be easier to understand with an example. We have village A and village B. In generation 1, village A speaks a form which we will call A1, and village B speaks a form which we will call B1. In generation 2, village A speaks a form which we will call A2, and village B speaks a form which we will call B2. The same goes for generations 3, 4, 5, etc.
So, to start off with, A1 and B1 are very similar, perhaps even identical. In the next generation, A2 is slightly different from A1, and B2 is slightly different from B1 (but in a different way from the way than A2 is different from A1), so B2 is slightly different from A2. Next, A3 is slightly different from A2, and B3 is slightly different from B2 (but in a different way from the way than A3 is different from A2), so, B3 is a little bit more different from A3, etc. After many generations, the two forms of the language, e.g. A20 and B20 could be *very* different.
One can refine this basic model by adding the fact that speakers in village A may come into contact with different ethnic groups than speakers in village B, and that they hence borrow different words for specific items (e.g. Hong Kong Cantonese speakers with speakers of English vs. Macao Cantonese speakers with speakers of Portuguese; Hokkien speakers in Taiwan, Malaysia, Phillipines). You can also add the fact that some words drop out of use and other (perhaps rarer) words may come into common use. But *different* words will drop out of use in village A than in village B, and different words may come into common use in village A than in village B. These processes will further make the languages spoken in different areas slowly grow apart.
This is a very simplified presentation of the situation of course, but is a reasonable model of how - as the Chinese spread from their original home in the Yellow River Basin - the forms of the language slowly diverged, giving the present day "dialects". This is also a simplified model of how Latin developed into Portuguese, Spanish, Catalan, Provencal, French, Italian and Romanian.
The additional subtleties are that there are often influences from the standard language (the form of the language as it happens to be spoken in the capital of the country). This has the effect of bringing different dialects or languages closer together again, because they share borrowed words from the standard or dominant language.
So, all that was a rather long-winded attempt to explain why there are 4 different words for "dirty": "lau siong", "an tsam", "la sam", "lap sap". Any other readers able to provide more words for “dirty”?
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Sim
Potato in Penang Hokkien
Hi,
We say a shorter form: "huan1 cu5" for potato. Tapioca is "chiu3 cu5".
Sim.
P.S. My apologies if the tones aren't totally correct, I'm just starting to learn the Hokkien tones based on the animals, and in my idiolect 1-8 are the same, 2-6 are the same, and 3-4-7 are the same.
We say a shorter form: "huan1 cu5" for potato. Tapioca is "chiu3 cu5".
Sim.
P.S. My apologies if the tones aren't totally correct, I'm just starting to learn the Hokkien tones based on the animals, and in my idiolect 1-8 are the same, 2-6 are the same, and 3-4-7 are the same.
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kaiah
Re: "Busybody" in Hokkien
Hi, everyone,
I am a Taiwanese, and I say these Hokkien words which are:
"potato": ma2 ling5 chi5 (馬鈴薯)
"aloe vera": loo5 hue7 (蘆薈)
"pea": ho5 lan5 tau7 (荷蘭豆)
"dragonfly": chhan5 e*1 (田嬰)
"dirty": lah4 sap4 (垃圾), la5 sam5, thai2 ko1, a1 cha1 (腌臢)
"dirty things": kia*1 lang5 (驚人).
I have heard of 蕪菁 in mandarin, but I never see and know what that is.
I am a Taiwanese, and I say these Hokkien words which are:
"potato": ma2 ling5 chi5 (馬鈴薯)
"aloe vera": loo5 hue7 (蘆薈)
"pea": ho5 lan5 tau7 (荷蘭豆)
"dragonfly": chhan5 e*1 (田嬰)
"dirty": lah4 sap4 (垃圾), la5 sam5, thai2 ko1, a1 cha1 (腌臢)
"dirty things": kia*1 lang5 (驚人).
I have heard of 蕪菁 in mandarin, but I never see and know what that is.
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yisheng
Re: "Busybody" in Hokkien
Hi Sim,
in my family, we use huan3 cu5 for sweet potato and kan3 tang3 cu5 for potato. The usage of chiu3 cu5 for tapioca is the same. Quite interesting to see differences in Penang Hokkien too!
With regards to your discussion about tones, I personally feel that the 3rd and 7th tone are one, 2nd and 6th too. For the rest, I can detect the differences if I say the words standing alone but if I talk normally, then it becomes quite difficult to differentiate.
yisheng
in my family, we use huan3 cu5 for sweet potato and kan3 tang3 cu5 for potato. The usage of chiu3 cu5 for tapioca is the same. Quite interesting to see differences in Penang Hokkien too!
With regards to your discussion about tones, I personally feel that the 3rd and 7th tone are one, 2nd and 6th too. For the rest, I can detect the differences if I say the words standing alone but if I talk normally, then it becomes quite difficult to differentiate.
yisheng
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Niuc
Re: "Busybody" in Hokkien
Miles, thanks to you that now I know one more word i.e. 'lau5 siong5'. In Douglas' dictionary its definition is "slovenly, as person or room". In 廈門方言詞典 its hanji is 流瘍, meaning dirty. I heard of 'am1 cam1', Douglas' mentioning 'a1 ca1' as a variation of 'am1 cam1'.
Casey, thanks for your help. About 'phiat4'/'phiat8', I don't know if it's derived from English "plate". Dictionaries I have don't mention its origin. It seems to be a native Hokkien word. About "pang kuang", now I'm rather confused
. After chit chat with friends, one who is from Beijing thinks that 蕪菁 'wu2 jing1' may be different from 'pang kuang'.
Sim, your posting is very interesting. Indeed languages are evolving every day. In our usage, 'la4 sap4' tends to mean "dirty" (adjective) and 'la5 sam5' tends to mean "dirt" (noun). We call sweet potato 'an1 cy5' ['cy5' sounds like Mandarin zi2, i.e. 值 zhi2 without retrolexed].
Kaiah, thanks for your help. Now I remember that dragonfly is actually 'chan5 i*1'. Often it becomes 'chan5 ni1', may be because of assimilation. It's interesting to note the usage of 'tai2 kou1' in Taiwanese since originally it means leprosy. We still use it for leprosy, do you?
Yisheng, it's interesting that you add 'cu5' to 'kan tang' for potato. We just call it 'kan1 tang1'. Tapioca is also 'chiu7 cy5' 樹薯.
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Casey, thanks for your help. About 'phiat4'/'phiat8', I don't know if it's derived from English "plate". Dictionaries I have don't mention its origin. It seems to be a native Hokkien word. About "pang kuang", now I'm rather confused
. After chit chat with friends, one who is from Beijing thinks that 蕪菁 'wu2 jing1' may be different from 'pang kuang'. Sim, your posting is very interesting. Indeed languages are evolving every day. In our usage, 'la4 sap4' tends to mean "dirty" (adjective) and 'la5 sam5' tends to mean "dirt" (noun). We call sweet potato 'an1 cy5' ['cy5' sounds like Mandarin zi2, i.e. 值 zhi2 without retrolexed].
Kaiah, thanks for your help. Now I remember that dragonfly is actually 'chan5 i*1'. Often it becomes 'chan5 ni1', may be because of assimilation. It's interesting to note the usage of 'tai2 kou1' in Taiwanese since originally it means leprosy. We still use it for leprosy, do you?
Yisheng, it's interesting that you add 'cu5' to 'kan tang' for potato. We just call it 'kan1 tang1'. Tapioca is also 'chiu7 cy5' 樹薯.
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yisheng
Re: "Busybody" in Hokkien
Hi Niuc,
I just came across an article in the chinese newspaper in Malaysia, 星州日报, published two weeks ago. In it, the 汉子 for bangkuang is 沙葛。 Hope this may help.
yisheng
I just came across an article in the chinese newspaper in Malaysia, 星州日报, published two weeks ago. In it, the 汉子 for bangkuang is 沙葛。 Hope this may help.
yisheng
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Niuc
Re: "Busybody" in Hokkien
Hi Yisheng,
Thanks for your help. A Singaporean friend also mentioned about 沙葛 but the one from Beijing never heard of it. May be it's not found in China.
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Thanks for your help. A Singaporean friend also mentioned about 沙葛 but the one from Beijing never heard of it. May be it's not found in China.
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kaiah
Re: "Busybody" in Hokkien
Hi, Niuc,
The usage of "thai2 ko1" or "thai2 ko1 kui2"(癩哥鬼) in TW means "slovenly and dirty", and "thai2 ko1 nua7 lo5"(癩哥爛癆) is used for "very very dirty".
We use "thai2 ko1 pe*7(pi*7)" for leprosy.
I looked up the word "沙葛" and actually found that is "豆薯"(tau7 chi5/tau7 a2 chi5) that is a common dish for us.
http://www.contest.edu.tw/87/endshow/3/ ... p113-1.htm
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The usage of "thai2 ko1" or "thai2 ko1 kui2"(癩哥鬼) in TW means "slovenly and dirty", and "thai2 ko1 nua7 lo5"(癩哥爛癆) is used for "very very dirty".
We use "thai2 ko1 pe*7(pi*7)" for leprosy.
I looked up the word "沙葛" and actually found that is "豆薯"(tau7 chi5/tau7 a2 chi5) that is a common dish for us.
http://www.contest.edu.tw/87/endshow/3/ ... p113-1.htm
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Niuc
Re: "Busybody" in Hokkien
Hi Kaiah,
Thanks for the info. In our usage, 'thai2 kou1' and 'thai2 kou1 pi*7' both mean leprosy. As in Taiwan, 'thai2 kou1 kui2' meaning dirty is also used in scolding / cursing.
Is 豆薯 'tau7 cy5' the one shown here? http://riasia.tripod.co.jp/data/jkt801.html [search for "bangkuang", in the picture it's the biggest]
In Japanese it's 葛芋 http://homepage3.nifty.com/sanggar/body1.html .
Yisheng is right that in Singapore/Malaysia it's called turnip http://www.cpf.gov.sg/cpf_info/News/amb ... fnews5.asp but in Microsoft Bookshelf American Heritage Dictionary the picture shown for turnip is different from "bangkuang".
This site http://www.antiquebali.com/bar_restaurant.htm calls it yumbean.
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Thanks for the info. In our usage, 'thai2 kou1' and 'thai2 kou1 pi*7' both mean leprosy. As in Taiwan, 'thai2 kou1 kui2' meaning dirty is also used in scolding / cursing.
Is 豆薯 'tau7 cy5' the one shown here? http://riasia.tripod.co.jp/data/jkt801.html [search for "bangkuang", in the picture it's the biggest]
In Japanese it's 葛芋 http://homepage3.nifty.com/sanggar/body1.html .
Yisheng is right that in Singapore/Malaysia it's called turnip http://www.cpf.gov.sg/cpf_info/News/amb ... fnews5.asp but in Microsoft Bookshelf American Heritage Dictionary the picture shown for turnip is different from "bangkuang".
This site http://www.antiquebali.com/bar_restaurant.htm calls it yumbean.
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