Hokkien words in Thai

[SimL]

Now that I hear pa is used in Indonesia, I'm beginning to doubt its Thai origins. I know it is a word used in Tai languages in the southwest of China, but if it is not attested in Taiwanese, Amoy, Chiang-chiu or Choan-chiu, it is very unlikely that it is a loan from the original pre-Sinitic languages of southern Fukien. I wonder how it got as far south as Bagansiapiapi?

What do you think about the theory that it was adopted by Hokkien and Teochew settlers in Thailand, and from business and other contacts between these settlers and those in Malaysia, Singapore, and Indonesia, that it spread to the Hokkien there?

I admit that it's not thoroughly convincing, as "lui" (and probably others like "sabun") was adopted by Hokkiens in S.E.Asia and *did* get borrowed into Taiwanese, Amoy etc.

[niuc]

Hi, Niuc. I've been wanting to go to Sumatra for a long time, esp the Minangkabau area to see if I can get cio'd (as in "hō͘'n̂g cio", "hō͘ lâng cio") by a Minang family But it seems like bahasa Hokkien doesn't go far on that side of the island.

Amhoanna, you know a lot about Indonesia, don't you? So you also know that Minang tradition is matriarchal where the groom gets cio'd & receives dowry from the bride. Unlike an Indian bride who has to pay dowry and still ruled by her husband, a Minang bride pays the dowry and has her children following her surnames. Inheritance is given (mostly) to daughters. You are right that although there are some Hokkiens there, they usually do not speak Hokkien anymore due to their environment. Minang people usually are more fanatic (or pious, depending on which side you are at) and that usually means more 'pai7-hua5' 敗華 (anti-Chinese), although they are less so when compared to Aceh people. If you are or become a Muslim there, you definitely can be cio'd!

But both groups of emigrées live in the US, will probably die in the US, and vote Republican all the way.

I am not familiar with US politics, but could you enlighten me why both vote for Republican?

This has got to be the same word as the one that shows up on http://sisuahlai.blogspot.com/ as the name of the blog. Sisoa or sisoaⁿ (no tones)? I don't think this word is used in Taiwan. Are you guys familiar with it?

In the context of "sisuahlai", i think it is 'si3-sua*3' 四散 literally means "scattered to four directions", also: not organized, without rule, et al. 四散來 'si3-sua*3-lai5' can mean: (in Singlish) anyhow do, impolite or without rule... 四散講 'si3-sua*3-kong2': (in Singlish) anyhow say, speak without thinking or without facts.

Now that I hear pa is used in Indonesia, I'm beginning to doubt its Thai origins. I know it is a word used in Tai languages in the southwest of China, but if it is not attested in Taiwanese, Amoy, Chiang-chiu or Choan-chiu, it is very unlikely that it is a loan from the original pre-Sinitic languages of southern Fukien. I wonder how it got as far south as Bagansiapiapi?

What do you think about the theory that it was adopted by Hokkien and Teochew settlers in Thailand, and from business and other contacts between these settlers and those in Malaysia, Singapore, and Indonesia, that it spread to the Hokkien there?

I admit that it's not thoroughly convincing, as "lui" (and probably others like "sabun") was adopted by Hokkiens in S.E.Asia and *did* get borrowed into Taiwanese, Amoy etc.

Ah-bin, I share Sim's opinion. If this word 'pa1' is not found in original Tang-ua* Hokkien in China, then it is a loanword into Bagan Hokkien. We also use 'sap4-bun5' and 'lui1'. My impression is that Bagan founders who sailed from Songkla were born in China, not sure if they picked up the term there or it was loaned later through interactions with other Hokkiens in this region. Btw after them, a lot of Hokkiens sailed from China to Bagan including my grandparents. So Bagan people are "sinkhek" (we never used this term, we call ourselves 'Tng5-lang5' 唐人, while all other Indonesian Chinese including Medan people 'kiau5-sing1' 僑生 ), yet there are loanwords that felt so "natural".

[amhoanna]

Sī lín bô khìhiâm lah, Ah Bin!

Far be it from me to comment on anything that happened more than a hundred li from the sea. But I don't think Mandarin's got anything to do with it. From what I know, the Chinese loanwords in Thai are "historically parallel" to what we find in other Tai-Kadai and Hmong-Mien languages in SW and S China. We might be talking about a time-depth of over 2000 years. Here's a paper if anyone is interested: http://www.nostratic.ru/books/(280)li-sinotai.pdf

So what kind of Sino language was involved, if not Mandarin? Maybe something related to 平話 spoken in Kwongsai??

Good point about the efficiency of the ROC in stamping out Holo, considering that the PRC is supposed to be more hardcore. Maybe that's the power of the carrot vs the stick. By systematically favoring aSoaⁿ, whose lingua franca was Mandarin, the state created an environment where "everybody who was anybody" was aSoaⁿ and spoke Mandarin --> speaking Mandarin became "cool". Meanwhile, entire industries (mass media is the one that sticks out) are almost entirely aSoaⁿ-run to this day. And everybody who works in these industries either refuses to notice this or assumes that it's a coincidence. So when you see commercials in Holo on TV in Taiwan, they're generally "speaking to the nobodies". Whereas in Amoy and Coanciu, it's kind of prestigious to be local. When you see commercials in Holo on TV in Amoy, they're speaking to the "in" crowd, the people who work less but collect rents. Then there's the 廣東 model. When I saw commercials in Holo on TV in Soàⁿboé 汕尾, it was just "talking to the people in our language".

[amhoanna]

Interesting puzzle with pa. Niuc, you said pa means exactly jungle? It wouldn't have anything to do with "padang"?

One thing to keep in mind: the tone contour of pa in Central Thai is low-falling or low-level (not sure which one, exactly). But the cognate in Dambro (Southern Thai) could be mid-level or high-level, I wouldn't have a clue.

Another place name to throw into the mix: Pasang (Hokkien for Klang). I thought this was a Malay word, but what if it isn't?

What an interesting word, sìsoàⁿ. Unfortunately it's not "available" in Taiwan. My guess is that it's a Teochew loanword??

As for why Taiwanese expats in the US vote Republican ... there are all kinds of 近因 and 遠因, but my feeling is that it has the same "root cause" as sinkheh Tn̂glâng in the "colonies" being kind of listless in the fight against British, Dutch and French power, in many cases even siding with Europe. In the US, Vietnamese expats vote Republican too. They like the social conservatism, the perception of rugged economic individualism, the US imperialism (because they see the US as a traditional benefactor to them, etc.) ... So both proto-Green and Blue expats think of the US as "my big brother who's gonna come and kick your butt". What does that tell you about their home country? Goá m̄ ciah kóng siūⁿbeh kaji̍p ASEAN!

[niuc]

Hi Amhoanna

Thank you for the info. If I understand you correctly (pardon my ignorances! ), so it was due to Taiwan needing "protection" from US and Republican is perceived as more active in doing so. Huan1-ing5 ly2 lai5-ka1-jip8, m7-ku2 ASEAN u7-sim2-mi8 ho2?

Yes, 'pa1' means forest/jungle. I don't think it has anything to do with "padang", because "padang" means an open place, usually relatively flat, like a field, e.g. "padang rumput" = grassland, "padang pasir/gurun" = desert, "padang belantara" = wilderness.

I don't know about Klang, so need Malaysians to confirm. "Pasang" in Malay/Indonesian is tide. Another meaning is to assemble/set/fit together.

It is quite surprising that sìsoàⁿ is not found in Taiwanese Hokkien! May be it is from Teochew... or may be there are words particular to certain Hokkien variants not brought into Taiwan. Tang5-ua*1 term for cicada is 'a1-i5' (homophone with "auntie"), thus our variant also, but apparently this is not the term for other variants. I think 'a1-i5' for cicada is not found in Taiwan too, right?

[SimL]

... "Pasang" in Malay/Indonesian is tide. Another meaning is to assemble/set/fit together. ...

Hence "sepasang kasut" = "a pair of shoes", I guess.

I think 'a1-i5' for cicada is not found in Taiwan too, right?

The kid (or the adults) in the videoclip used another word at the very beginning, right? Most of the time they called it an am-po-ce (cE in my variant), but were they also saying that it's called a "can3/7". Perhaps this is a variant of another word "siEn3/7" which seems to ring a vague bell in my mind. Sorry if this has been covered before, I know we've spoken about cicadas in the past.

[SimL]

Found the previous discussion using Google (not findable using the Forum's internal search, searching for the word "cicada", sadly).

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2091&start=15
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=2091&start=45

These are on page 2 and 4 of the topic "More Chinese characters for Hokkien words" respectively. At the time, nobody mentioned can3/7 or siEn3/7. I notice too that I say the last syllable without aspiration "cE", whereas the "correct" pronunciation (as given by niuc) appears to be "chE".

[SimL]

... were they also saying that it's called a "can3/7". ...

I listened again, and they said "chan" not "can". Perhaps they were just quoting from Mandarin "chan2" 蟬?

[amhoanna]

Wow, you guys got mad Melayu skills. Lulang akan kena cio before me.

I'm not good with nature words in any language, but the word "á'î" shows up in Tēⁿ Liông'úi's database. http://203.64.42.21/iug/Ungian/soannteng/chil/chha.asp

Not everything in Tēⁿ kàusiū's database is current in Taiwan... I use the 台日大詞典 (Holo-Holo version) and Tâigí pe̍h'oē sió sûtián as a reality check... But there's a good chance the word is still used here somewhere. There were lots of Tâng'oaⁿ lâng here in the past, then more came via Kimbn̂g ... I mean, contrary to popular Holology, there were even lots of Tiôciu lâng here, and there's a town where people spoke Háihong oē... So if it's out there, it's probably used here somewhere. I shouldn't've generalized, even though a coânkok edition of Taiwan Holo is definitely in place by now.

Niuc, to elaborate on the mindset that you described, before the last presidential election, we had monolingual (English-only), L.A.-born members of the Taiwanese community going on and on about how Obama was not committed to protecting Taiwan... Tail-wag-dog politics, kind of like the Cubans in Miami, but with an even smaller tail. The old proto-Blues have a more abstract mindset. They lost their country, the ROC, but they "upgraded" to their old ally, and now they're orang Hoekî.

As for ASEAN... I'm guessing that what brought many of us to the field of "International Holology" ... is a basic drive to move forward and be part of something bigger, i.e. build on the promise of the old Hokkien networks, w/o getting washed out by some kind of monolithic land-based superculture. And maybe ASEAN is headed in the same direction.

[niuc]

Hence "sepasang kasut" = "a pair of shoes", I guess.

Thanks Sim, actually I forgot about this one (third meaning). The second meaning of "pasang" is a verb, i.e. memasang, dipasang, terpasang etc... Indeed "pasang" to mean "pair" is derived from the second meaning.

Most of the time they called it an am-po-ce (cE in my variant)...

From what I heard, they called it am-po-che...

These are on page 2 and 4 of the topic "More Chinese characters for Hokkien words" respectively. At the time, nobody mentioned can3/7 or siEn3/7. I notice too that I say the last syllable without aspiration "cE", whereas the "correct" pronunciation (as given by niuc) appears to be "chE".

It was from dictionary, actually until now I don't remember how to pronounce it without seeing the tonal numbers! I found it mouthful, especially when compared to my variant's "a1-i5".

I listened again, and they said "chan" not "can". Perhaps they were just quoting from Mandarin "chan2" 蟬?

Yes, it's from Mandarin.