Hoklo in Canto Land, reports from the field
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AndrewAndrew
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Re: Hoklo in Canto Land, reports from the field
I have to say, now that Sim has alerted me to the existence of such creatures, I have actually seen a few shrews, both in my house in Penang and in KL. Before I would have just thought them to be rats and not looked properly!
Re: Hoklo in Canto Land, reports from the field
Hi Andrew,
A friend of mine who is also very interested in learning Chinese used to think it is odd that Chinese doesn't distinguish between "rat" and "mouse". But lately, he found a scientific article which shows that the two are not separate categories - in a biological sense - at all. He was big-hearted enough to let me know of the existence of the article
. Interesting that English goes to this extreme of distinguishing "rat" and "mouse" and even "shrew". Impressive!
A friend of mine who is also very interested in learning Chinese used to think it is odd that Chinese doesn't distinguish between "rat" and "mouse". But lately, he found a scientific article which shows that the two are not separate categories - in a biological sense - at all. He was big-hearted enough to let me know of the existence of the article
. Interesting that English goes to this extreme of distinguishing "rat" and "mouse" and even "shrew". Impressive!Re: Hoklo in Canto Land, reports from the field
Sorry, Amhoanna, I didn't notice the question before. I think there were some, but not many, who could (or can). Some years ago I still saw Singapore Amoy Hokkien Hymnals in a few churches that used both TLJ & POJ, so apparently there were (are) quite a number of people who can read POJ in Singapore.amhoanna wrote:Cool. Does that mean there's people in Jakarta that read Hokkien in POJ?I found a used POJ Amoy Vernacular Bible sold at Pancoran (Jakarta's Chinatown). The POJ Bible's Hokkien is more natural and down to earth than reading 和合本 in Hokkien.
Sim, thanks for sharing. How about in Dutch or German, etc? Using Google translator, they have different terms also. It seems to me that Indo-European languages often have a lot of terms, while Chinese and Indonesian/Malay usually have general terms and use adjectives to differentiate further.SimL wrote: A friend of mine who is also very interested in learning Chinese used to think it is odd that Chinese doesn't distinguish between "rat" and "mouse". But lately, he found a scientific article which shows that the two are not separate categories - in a biological sense - at all. He was big-hearted enough to let me know of the existence of the article
Re: Hoklo in Canto Land, reports from the field
Hi niuc,niuc wrote:Sim, thanks for sharing. How about in Dutch or German, etc? Using Google translator, they have different terms also. It seems to me that Indo-European languages often have a lot of terms, while Chinese and Indonesian/Malay usually have general terms and use adjectives to differentiate further.SimL wrote:... Interesting that English goes to this extreme of distinguishing "rat" and "mouse" and even "shrew". Impressive!
As you would have noticed, Dutch and German call a shrew "Spitsmuis" and "Spitzmaus" respectively. The "spits/Spitz" just means "tip" (as in the "tip of a spear") or "point", and is a reference to the sharp nose.
Actually, as a result of your question, I re-read (skimming) the Wikipedia article on shrews, and learnt that they are more closely related to moles than to mice or rats; mice and rats both being rodents - according to Wikipedia, this is Mandarin "啮齿目" - which shrews apparently are not. Something I didn't know - in fact, I had always "agreed with the Dutch/German terminology" and thought they were rodents, closely related to mice.
The point which is special about English is that the word "shrew" is an independent word, unlike Dutch and German "Spitsmuis" and "Spitzmaus" - the latter two languages re-inforcing the idea that they are a type of mouse.
As you point out niuc, Chinese/Malay usually go the other way for fruits, fish, birds, etc, by using a single term, and then qualifying it with a preceding syllable. In that sense though, Hokkien is similar to English for shrews, as it distinguishes shrews from rats/mice (as opposed to Dutch/German, which treat them as a sort of mouse). But then, in Hokkien, a shrew ("ciN-chu") is as related or distant (linguistically speaking) from a rat/mouse ("niau-chu") as it is from a squirrel ("phong-chu") or a kangaroo ("te-chu'). I'm speaking here only of the linguistic terms - obviously, people don't think shrews are as similar to squirrels and kangaroos as they are to rats or mice!
PS. Interestingly, Indonesian appears to have a separate word for the shrew too: Celurut - http://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celurut.
Re: Hoklo in Canto Land, reports from the field
Two notes from here in Saigon.
Met a white collar from Singapore last night. Asked him if he spoke Hokkien, he said a little. Later I said "lim ciú" to him as I raised my glass. He was surprised b/c earlier somebody else had motioned to a group of people including me and said, "We're all Vietnamese," which was true except for me. The guy said he didn't speak much Hokkien at all, but he actually spoke it pretty decently for a 30-ish white collar S'porean. He asked me if I spoke Mandarin, as if to get me out of Hokkien. I said yes, but continued in Hokkien. Later I met his colleague from Melaka who was sitting down-table. He also asked me if I spoke Mandarin. The S'porean answered for me, said I "understood it". It tickles me that these guys might think there's 30-ish TWnese guys out there that can understand Mandarin but not really speak it.
As I left, I heard the Melakan saying my Hokkien was really good, and the S'porean saying of course, he's from Taiwan. Although they were probably both fluent in Mandarin, the language they used with each other was Sing-/Manglish.
Also spoke to a 30-ish VNmese in Cantonese. Her Cantonese was much better than mine, although she looked like she had at least half ethnic VNmese (not Hoa) blood. I asked her 你係边度人 WHERE ARE YOU FROM? She switched the question to WHERE DO YOU LIVE? in her head, and answered New York (in Canto). It turned out she was actually a local Saigon girl and didn't leave till eight yrs ago, in her 20s. A bizarre switch but very common among Asians living in the US/Aus, this kind of identifying so strongly with the US/Aus that it "forcibly" becomes their place of "origin". Her Canto was so good I assumed she was a heritage spkr, and there are millions in this part of Vietnam, but turns out she has no Canto heritage, and didn't learn Canto till she got to New York City. Now she speaks it perfectly. Her English is accented and halting, but her Canto sounds to me like native Canto and I have to strain to keep up with her. How do U like that?
Met a white collar from Singapore last night. Asked him if he spoke Hokkien, he said a little. Later I said "lim ciú" to him as I raised my glass. He was surprised b/c earlier somebody else had motioned to a group of people including me and said, "We're all Vietnamese," which was true except for me. The guy said he didn't speak much Hokkien at all, but he actually spoke it pretty decently for a 30-ish white collar S'porean. He asked me if I spoke Mandarin, as if to get me out of Hokkien. I said yes, but continued in Hokkien. Later I met his colleague from Melaka who was sitting down-table. He also asked me if I spoke Mandarin. The S'porean answered for me, said I "understood it". It tickles me that these guys might think there's 30-ish TWnese guys out there that can understand Mandarin but not really speak it.
As I left, I heard the Melakan saying my Hokkien was really good, and the S'porean saying of course, he's from Taiwan. Although they were probably both fluent in Mandarin, the language they used with each other was Sing-/Manglish. Also spoke to a 30-ish VNmese in Cantonese. Her Cantonese was much better than mine, although she looked like she had at least half ethnic VNmese (not Hoa) blood. I asked her 你係边度人 WHERE ARE YOU FROM? She switched the question to WHERE DO YOU LIVE? in her head, and answered New York (in Canto). It turned out she was actually a local Saigon girl and didn't leave till eight yrs ago, in her 20s. A bizarre switch but very common among Asians living in the US/Aus, this kind of identifying so strongly with the US/Aus that it "forcibly" becomes their place of "origin". Her Canto was so good I assumed she was a heritage spkr, and there are millions in this part of Vietnam, but turns out she has no Canto heritage, and didn't learn Canto till she got to New York City. Now she speaks it perfectly. Her English is accented and halting, but her Canto sounds to me like native Canto and I have to strain to keep up with her. How do U like that?
Re: Hoklo in Canto Land, reports from the field
Amhoanna, glad to read your posting again, as usual!
About the VN woman, could it because VN and Canto are (are they?) quite close e.g. tones, certain words, etc?
About the VN woman, could it because VN and Canto are (are they?) quite close e.g. tones, certain words, etc?
Re: Hoklo in Canto Land, reports from the field
Sĩ, goá siũⁿ sĩ. Á'm̃kò' Kńgtang lảng ọ' Anlảm oẹ tọ' bỏ hià' khinsang ·a.
Re: Hoklo in Canto Land, reports from the field
Met an ape' 阿伯 outside Chợ Bếnthành (檳城 Market, called 新街市 in Canto, I think) who was selling tours. I was looking for a certain model of motorbike to rent. After a couple of minutes, I looked at his face and thought, "Surely this ape' speaks Cantonese," and he must've thought the same thing b/c right then he asked me what country I came from, and meanwhile I was asking him 你識唔識講廣東話. Turns out he was Teochew. I agreed to let him take me to look for that model of motorbike for just under SGD$2. He used the 大家都係唐人 line: "I help U, U help me," etc.
At first I thought he wasn't comfortable speaking Hoklo, but once we got under way, he started telling me the story of his family in fluent Teochew. Since he was in front of me on the motorbike, in noisy traffic, speaking a language that I can barely understand when I can hear it clear, I wasn't able to catch much of what he was saying. Yet I did catch some fragments... It's amazing how many phrases sound exactly the same in Teochew as in Hokkien.
Finally we wound up in the streets right behind where I found him orig. I guess he assumed I didn't know my way around this town, and figured he could "take me for a ride". He did bring me some value by taking me to these used motorbike shops, turning me on to the possibility of renting from a used motorbike shop. One shop even had a couple of Suzuki Satria 120s, the generation before the current F-150s. Unfortunately not for rent. Also, there was no way to get a decent rate anywhere with this ape' in there negotiating his cut. Finally I gave him 2/3 of the SGD$2 we'd agreed on and sent him on his way, accusing him or calling him out on 想揾我老親. (Canto idiom meaning "TO CHEAT".)
At first I thought he wasn't comfortable speaking Hoklo, but once we got under way, he started telling me the story of his family in fluent Teochew. Since he was in front of me on the motorbike, in noisy traffic, speaking a language that I can barely understand when I can hear it clear, I wasn't able to catch much of what he was saying. Yet I did catch some fragments... It's amazing how many phrases sound exactly the same in Teochew as in Hokkien.
Finally we wound up in the streets right behind where I found him orig. I guess he assumed I didn't know my way around this town, and figured he could "take me for a ride". He did bring me some value by taking me to these used motorbike shops, turning me on to the possibility of renting from a used motorbike shop. One shop even had a couple of Suzuki Satria 120s, the generation before the current F-150s. Unfortunately not for rent. Also, there was no way to get a decent rate anywhere with this ape' in there negotiating his cut. Finally I gave him 2/3 of the SGD$2 we'd agreed on and sent him on his way, accusing him or calling him out on 想揾我老親. (Canto idiom meaning "TO CHEAT".)
Re: Hoklo in Canto Land, reports from the field
Anni, sīmī Anlâm uē pí Kńgtang uē khah hokcàp, só•ì khah phaí òh?Amhoanna wrote: Sĩ, goá siũⁿ sĩ. Á'm̃kò' Kńgtang lảng ọ' Anlảm oẹ tọ' bỏ hià' khinsang •a.
So there is 檳城 in Vietnam also.Chợ Bếnthành (檳城 Market
Wikipedia says that betel & areca are used in VN weddings... sounds very similar to Malay & other Indonesian tribes.
I have this impression that Minnan dialects sound more similar in conversation (sandhi/RT) than in word-by-word citation (ST). What do you think?It's amazing how many phrases sound exactly the same in Teochew as in Hokkien.
Wow, I thought Suzuki Satria only existed in Indonesia.One shop even had a couple of Suzuki Satria 120s
Re: Hoklo in Canto Land, reports from the field
Sĩ ·la, ẽsái kóng sĩ. Cú'iàu sĩ gứ'im kha' họkcạp, ụnbó thià' ka' cin iù.Anni, sīmī Anlâm uē pí Kńgtang uē khah hokcàp, só•ì khah phaí òh?
I'll take your word for it on this one! I've got my hands full just trying to understand them, any one of them.I have this impression that Minnan dialects sound more similar in conversation (sandhi/RT) than in word-by-word citation (ST). What do you think?
SATRIA chia Huilịppin, Siảmtẹ, Málaise'á lóng ũ, tữ Hui, Siảm kiòcò RAIDER, tữ Má kiòcò BELANG. Goá thảu cịt pái khiả tiọ' SATRIA sĩ tữ Huilịppin, bỏ doã kú cẻng, sinkhoán 150 CC ·ẻ, sịtcãi sóng. Tữ Oạtlảm kanna ũ 120 CC kụkhoán ·ẻ...Wow, I thought Suzuki Satria only existed in Indonesia.
Tữ Bảlỉ, Jiáu'a khiả ka' cin koànsì è̉ HONDA WAVE 125 toà cia bỏ chut, kanna ũ WAVE 110, WAVE 100. Oạtlảm lảng kha' bỏ tì'ì chia ũ gảu cáu ·bỏ (cepat/lambat sĩ ṃ sĩ ánne piáutạt). SUZUKI SHOGUN ũ, ṃ kò' bỏ cẹ, goá ànsuìⁿ be' lải be' cịt tải'á tiongkó· ẻ SHOGUN.
Bat thiaⁿ koè Oạtlảm aPin ka' aNn̉g ẻ kò·sụ ·bỏ?Wikipedia says that betel & areca are used in VN weddings... sounds very similar to Malay & other Indonesian tribes.
http://www.books.com.tw/exep/prod/books ... 0010464962:
很久以前，有一對感情很好而且長得很像的雙胞胎兄弟，一個叫檳，一個叫榔。檳和榔因為父親去世，寄住在學者劉老師家裡。劉老師的女兒欣賞哥哥檳，於是劉老師讓女兒和檳結婚。結婚之後，檳漸漸和榔疏遠，榔覺得傷心又難過，有一天憤而離家出走。
榔走到河邊，傷心坐在河邊哭泣，第二天變成一座石頭雕像。哥哥檳為了找尋弟弟，也走到了同樣的河邊。看到石像之後，檳痛哭失聲，變成了一棵怪樹。檳的妻子為了找尋丈夫和小叔，也出外尋找，她看到石像和怪樹，感到無比哀痛，傷心落淚的她變成一株纏繞著怪樹生長的藤蔓。
有一次，雄王經過這裡，注意到這棵怪樹。雄王請僕人摘下怪樹的果子，並以藤蔓葉子包覆，將果實放在嘴中咀嚼。雄王覺得香辣合口，一口把汁液吐在石頭上，汁液竟迅速變成鮮血般的紅色。雄王被三人的情誼感動，命令大家廣為栽種，並把石頭燒成石灰，加入其中。從此之後，吃檳榔就變成越南的一項傳統文化，檳榔也成為一種重要的供品。