Yisheng:
>> my father's name is also similar to your maternal grandfather.
>> His surname is in mandarin, but his name is in dialect.
Hi! Nice to know more details about this.
My mother has her official name (on her birth certificate) completely in Mandarin, but I've never heard anyone actually use it in real life. So in effect, I've only ever heard her Mandarin name pronounced in English - like when spelling it out on the phone when ringing the doctor, electricity company etc . I think her eldest brother has a mixed Mandarin-Hokkien name, but I'll have to ask her the next time I speak to her.
On my father's side we are Baba and cannot speak Mandarin (even worse, we are Penang Baba and so generally cannot speak even other dialects, unlike the Chinese on peninsular Malaysia). As a consequence of this, none of us have "literary names", and all our official names are in dialect only.
When Aurelio first posted his thread on "Surnames in Hokkien" I started gathering examples of Hokkien names on the net, in order to see if we could get as complete a list of surnames as possible. However, I gave up after some time because Niuc posted his excellent reply with a complete list of surnames. Now that the topic of interest has shifted slightly to Hokkien personal names, I may go back and try and get more examples and post them here.
Andrew:
>> Is the literary name usually used with the surname, or by itself?
The usage is no different from that of "household name" (to use Yisheng's very appropriate coinage). i.e. the literary name appears to be a "personal" name selected by the individual, and can hence be used in combination with the surname. So, the "full name" becomes "<surname> + <literaryname> for application forms, entries in the phone book, etc, while school friends, teachers, colleagues and adult friends address the person just as <literaryname>.
-Sim.
Philippine Hokkien
Re: Philippine Hokkien
Sim:
perhaps the mandarin-hokkien type name is linked to those who were in Chinese-language education those days. My paternal grandfather was also a teacher in a chinese-medium school and he wrote his surname as Tan or Chen, and followed by his name in dialect. But for his children, he registered their surname as Chen, instead of Tan, followed by their dialect names. Up till today, I have not seen a case of anyone who had my father's type of "mandarin surname dialect name" until you mentioned your grandfather's example. On the other hand, "Dialect surname mandarin name" seems to be quite common nowadays as families want to retain knowledge of their ancestry, at least in Singapore.
Andrew:
>>is the literary name usually used with the surname, or by itself?
my grandmother's case is similar to Sim's case.
Yisheng
perhaps the mandarin-hokkien type name is linked to those who were in Chinese-language education those days. My paternal grandfather was also a teacher in a chinese-medium school and he wrote his surname as Tan or Chen, and followed by his name in dialect. But for his children, he registered their surname as Chen, instead of Tan, followed by their dialect names. Up till today, I have not seen a case of anyone who had my father's type of "mandarin surname dialect name" until you mentioned your grandfather's example. On the other hand, "Dialect surname mandarin name" seems to be quite common nowadays as families want to retain knowledge of their ancestry, at least in Singapore.
Andrew:
>>is the literary name usually used with the surname, or by itself?
my grandmother's case is similar to Sim's case.
Yisheng
Re: Philippine Hokkien
Niuc,
My mom told me that 'pa' in Hokkien, maybe just in our dialect, means to import or something foreign.
Stifven
My mom told me that 'pa' in Hokkien, maybe just in our dialect, means to import or something foreign.
Stifven
Re: Philippine Hokkien
Yisheng,
>> my paternal grandMOTHER does have a "literary name" and a "household name".
>> In fact, all my grandmother's brothers and SISTERS have two names.
Until now, I had thought that mostly only men did this. One small instance of some degree of equality for females in Chinese culture. I forgot to say that I was extremely happy to hear this!
Sim.
[%sig%]
>> my paternal grandMOTHER does have a "literary name" and a "household name".
>> In fact, all my grandmother's brothers and SISTERS have two names.
Until now, I had thought that mostly only men did this. One small instance of some degree of equality for females in Chinese culture. I forgot to say that I was extremely happy to hear this!
Sim.
[%sig%]
Re: Philippine Hokkien
Stivfen, thank you. Btw could you give some examples of 'pa' usage?
Sim & Yisheng, thanks for the wonderful stories about literary name. In our hometown, some old people have it but not younger ones. I read of some names with surname 'Hong' but I didn't realize that it was indeed the same surname with 'Png'/'Pui*'. Btw how do you pronounce the name 方世玉 (Fang1 Shi4yu4 in Mandarin, a folk hero)? We call him 'Png1 Se3 Giok8'.
In quarrel, people call each other's name angrily. If surname is also added, it's much worse. We call this 'tia4 mia*5 ko4 tia4 si*3'. 'tia4' means to say something clearly, as in 'tia4 bing5'. Anybody know the character for 'tia4'?
Sim, you reminded me about the surname list I got from a Taiwanese website. I said I'd check the romanization yet hadn't done it
[%sig%]
Sim & Yisheng, thanks for the wonderful stories about literary name. In our hometown, some old people have it but not younger ones. I read of some names with surname 'Hong' but I didn't realize that it was indeed the same surname with 'Png'/'Pui*'. Btw how do you pronounce the name 方世玉 (Fang1 Shi4yu4 in Mandarin, a folk hero)? We call him 'Png1 Se3 Giok8'.
In quarrel, people call each other's name angrily. If surname is also added, it's much worse. We call this 'tia4 mia*5 ko4 tia4 si*3'. 'tia4' means to say something clearly, as in 'tia4 bing5'. Anybody know the character for 'tia4'?
Sim, you reminded me about the surname list I got from a Taiwanese website. I said I'd check the romanization yet hadn't done it
[%sig%]
Re: Philippine Hokkien
Niuc,
>> In quarrel, people call each other's name angrily. If surname is also
>> added, it's much worse. We call this 'tia4 mia*5 ko4 tia4 si*3'.
I didn't know about this, and my mind is absolutely boggled, because it is very similar to American usage when scolding one's children. If you say: "John, come here!", you might be reasonablyl annoyed, but if you say "John Taylor, come here at once", then you are probably extremely angry!.
I'm not sure if it's British usage as well. It doesn't feel wrong when I try to imagine an English person talking like that, but I personally associate it much more strongly with US usage.
A very intriguing case of parallel usage of the same linguistic device!
>> Sim, you reminded me about the surname list I got from a Taiwanese
>> website. I said I'd check the romanization yet hadn't done it
Well, no pressure, but I look forward to seeing it when you get the time...
Cheers,
Sim.
[%sig%]
>> In quarrel, people call each other's name angrily. If surname is also
>> added, it's much worse. We call this 'tia4 mia*5 ko4 tia4 si*3'.
I didn't know about this, and my mind is absolutely boggled, because it is very similar to American usage when scolding one's children. If you say: "John, come here!", you might be reasonablyl annoyed, but if you say "John Taylor, come here at once", then you are probably extremely angry!.
I'm not sure if it's British usage as well. It doesn't feel wrong when I try to imagine an English person talking like that, but I personally associate it much more strongly with US usage.
A very intriguing case of parallel usage of the same linguistic device!
>> Sim, you reminded me about the surname list I got from a Taiwanese
>> website. I said I'd check the romanization yet hadn't done it
Well, no pressure, but I look forward to seeing it when you get the time...
Cheers,
Sim.
[%sig%]
Re: Philippine Hokkien
Sim,
I guess my grandmother and her sisters got their "literary name" because they actually went to school, if they simply stayed at home like many other women in their generation, I wouldn't be able to tell you this. Anyway, should thank my great-grandfather for being more progressive than many other men in his generation.
Niuc:
Fang Shi Yu for me would be Hong1 Se3 Gek8. I don't pronounce jade as giok in names but I know people here in JB and Singapore do. Sim and Andrew, what about you all? How do you pronounce the character for jade?
Yisheng
[%sig%]
I guess my grandmother and her sisters got their "literary name" because they actually went to school, if they simply stayed at home like many other women in their generation, I wouldn't be able to tell you this. Anyway, should thank my great-grandfather for being more progressive than many other men in his generation.
Niuc:
Fang Shi Yu for me would be Hong1 Se3 Gek8. I don't pronounce jade as giok in names but I know people here in JB and Singapore do. Sim and Andrew, what about you all? How do you pronounce the character for jade?
Yisheng
[%sig%]
Re: Philippine Hokkien
Sim,
I guess my grandmother and her sisters got their "literary name" because they actually went to school, if they simply stayed at home like many other women in their generation, I wouldn't be able to tell you this. Anyway, should thank my great-grandfather for being more progressive than many other men in his generation.
Niuc:
Fang Shi Yu for me would be Hong1 Se3 Gek8. I don't pronounce jade as giok in names but I know people here in JB and Singapore do. Sim and Andrew, what about you all? How do you pronounce the character for jade?
Yisheng
I guess my grandmother and her sisters got their "literary name" because they actually went to school, if they simply stayed at home like many other women in their generation, I wouldn't be able to tell you this. Anyway, should thank my great-grandfather for being more progressive than many other men in his generation.
Niuc:
Fang Shi Yu for me would be Hong1 Se3 Gek8. I don't pronounce jade as giok in names but I know people here in JB and Singapore do. Sim and Andrew, what about you all? How do you pronounce the character for jade?
Yisheng
Re: Philippine Hokkien
In 廈門方言詞典 and Douglas' dictionary, the character for 'tia4' is 摘 (zhai1 in Mandarin) meaning "to pick/pluck; to call out". In Douglas' there is an entry for 'tia4 mia*5 tia4 si*3' 摘名摘姓 = to speak of or to a person simply by his surname and name, without adding any polite designation.
Yisheng, we usually say 'giok8' for proper name, yet there are people whose names pronounced 'gik8' instead. I guess it depends on how their parents call them.
[%sig%]
Yisheng, we usually say 'giok8' for proper name, yet there are people whose names pronounced 'gik8' instead. I guess it depends on how their parents call them.
[%sig%]
Re: Philippine Hokkien
>> Yisheng, we usually say 'giok8' for proper name, yet there are people
>> whose names pronounced 'gik8' instead. I guess it depends on how
>> their parents call them.
Yes, Niuc. In Penang know lots of people called "gek" and lots called "giok".
-Sim.
[%sig%]
>> whose names pronounced 'gik8' instead. I guess it depends on how
>> their parents call them.
Yes, Niuc. In Penang know lots of people called "gek" and lots called "giok".
-Sim.
[%sig%]