Benzi/Original character

[xng]

否 has two meaning.

One meaning means 'no' 是否 pronounced as 'Hiou'.

The second meaning is 'bad' ie. 否極泰來 which is a mandarin/cantonese sentence too, it literary means 'bad gone, good comes'. The literary sound for this is P'i but the colloquail sound is P'ai.

[xng]

SimL wrote:
I just noticed that xng had this in his original posting on "Benzi/original character"

>> 故 - Kou / Again

I saw that, too, and gave it some thought.

Pro:
It seems to square with the phrase "明知故問" ("(You) know and yet (you) still ask").

Con:
故 is kO in 漳州 Chiang Chiu Hokkien (upon which Penang Hokkien is largely based), as in 故事 kO-su. But we say ko-cai, ko-u, etc. - not kO-cai, kO-u, etc.

故 is the original character, it has 2 different sounds and 2 different meanings

1. Ko (means ancient or old) 故事

2. Kou (glottal stop) (means again) as in 明知故問 (thanks to mark yong!)

擱,佫 are borrowed for its sound and NOT the meaning. 復 (hok) is borrowed for its meaning and not sound.

The ucla website gives some classical chinese examples which I reproduce below.

Check

http://solution.cs.ucla.edu/~jinbo/dzl/lookup.php

[例】 〔方〕故較〈更〉｜故再〈又〉

[備註】史記‧卷四‧周本紀：「褒姒不好笑，幽王欲其笑萬方，故不笑。」唐‧杜甫‧絕句漫興詩九首之三：「熟知茅齋絕低小，江上燕子故來頻。」世說新語‧尤悔：「既釋，周大說，飲酒。及出，諸王故在門。」世說新語‧儉嗇：「庾云，故可種。」參見楊秀芳，論「故」的虛化及其在閩方言中的表現，臺大文史哲學報第六十期。

[xng]

I suspect that 'Pai' (as in number of times) is actually non-sinitic as there doesn't seem to be an original character for it. This is supported by the fact that there is an alternative word that is used quite regularly ie. Pien 遍.

[Andrew]

I suspect that 'Pai' (as in number of times) is actually non-sinitic as there doesn't seem to be an original character for it. This is supported by the fact that there is an alternative word that is used quite regularly ie. Pien 遍.

Or tau2.

[xng]

I suspect that 'Pai' (as in number of times) is actually non-sinitic as there doesn't seem to be an original character for it. This is supported by the fact that there is an alternative word that is used quite regularly ie. Pien 遍.

Or tau2.

Taiwanese definitely don't use Tau, nor do southern malaysian hokkien (as far as I know) based on quanzhou use Tau, so I suspect that this is also non-sinitic for zhangzhou hokkien unless you can provide an original character.

[xng]

I think that the original word for 'and' ie. Ka is 佮.

This is supported by the cantonese website.

http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/lexi-can/
相合、聚合、通力合作

and
http://chinalanguage.com/forums/viewtop ... 27&start=0

Anybody disagree ?

[aokh1979]

Hi xng:

That is basically what I use as "and" now. But I am not very sure if 佮 is the 本字, let me share with you why I doubt.

合 should be a 入聲 character, 佮 is marked as either kah or kap but "and" sounds as ka everywhere. In 漳州, I heard a friend say kiao before. 我 ka 汝講 = 我 kiao 汝講.

If we try to relate to 文白異讀 in Hokkien, we will find that many 文讀 with ao or iao match with a in 白讀, like: 教, 骹, 較, 撽, 鉸, 孢, 撓, 炒, 鬧 and so on...... Some people even say 樵 is the actual word for cha 柴. Would ka actually be a kao or kiao in 文讀 ? I am just not sure, but 佮 is indeed what I use today.

[xng]

Hi xng:

合 should be a 入聲 character, 佮 is marked as either kah or kap but "and" sounds as ka everywhere. In 漳州, I heard a friend say kiao before. 我 ka 汝講 = 我 kiao 汝講.

Hi aokh,

It is nice to have some other expert giving me inputs as it was getting a bit lonely here.

I don't quite understand what you are trying to say here, are you saying that 'Ka' shouldn't be a 入聲 ?
The most common character in usage in Taiwan is 甲 which is the wrong character since the meaning is entirely wrong. But 甲 also has a high tone 入聲 which is the same as how 合 is pronounced as 'Ka' (high tone 入聲) in 合意〈中意>. Malaysians/Singaporean use 'Suka' instead which is a malay word.

Both 佮 or 合 has similar meaning but 合 has a lot of other meanings. One of the meaning of 合 is 'togetherness'. So it is either 佮 or 合, which do you think is closest ? do you know classical chinese ? Many of minnan characters are borrowed from classical chinese.

The 人 radical in 佮 seems to suggest two people 'doing something together' (ie. and).

There are no other 'Kiau' character that fits the meaning so we can eliminate this theory. 我 kiao 汝講 is a corruption rather than original because overseas chinese don't talk like that.

[aokh1979]

Yes, that's what I was suggesting. I think, ka should not be a 入聲 word. You see, when we say "I and you", you say "Goa ka lu" instead of "Goa kah lu". The ka in here, is obviously not a 入聲 character. Therefore, 佮 does not really meet the required sound. Or, perhaps, I have been wrong for many many years.

But, I refer to a few dictionaries written in China and Taiwan, 佮 is marked as kah and the ka that we're looking at, is separate. Ka, is without 入聲 in all dictionaries I have. Some books say 共 is the character for ka. Sadly, I cannot accept......

伊 2 儂昧佮 = The 2 of them do not match

In above example, I would say 佮 or 合 with 入聲 makes perfect sense as it means "match" here. But as "and", I am quite certain that it is not a 入聲 sound. Although 佮 is what I proceed to use today.

In fact, I am not sure, but I think overseas Chinese do use kiao, not in Hokkien but Hainanese, which is also a Minnan variant. I love 本字 and I think we can continue to explore...... I do know classical Chinese, not much but I do read. I am Chinese educated and I hook up with a group of friends here who also fans of Hokkien language. Sorry, Hokkien is not a dialect to me.



PS: Sorry, very sleepy...... May sound a bit 語無倫次 here......

[xng]

Yes, that's what I was suggesting. I think, ka should not be a 入聲 word. You see, when we say "I and you", you say "Goa ka lu" instead of "Goa kah lu". The ka in here, is obviously not a 入聲 character. Therefore, 佮 does not really meet the required sound. Or, perhaps, I have been wrong for many many years.

So you are saying 佮 has the correct meaning but wrong tone ? It could be there was a change in tone for overseas chinese. Just as how 'Gua' has changed to 'Wa' in some overseas chinese communities.

We can't take hainanese as an example, because there are lots of sound changes from original minnan.

In Taiwan, they borrow 甲 for the sound/tone so it DOES have a 入聲 or else they would have chosen another character for the sound.

This is verified by looking at Hing Hua which originates from Minnan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Puxian_Min ... 1-ci.CC.8D

太初有道，道佮上帝同在 (The ka here is Kah ie. glottal stop)