So, this thread will be all about Hoklo loanwords in bahasa Indo and its sister dialects, and v.v., and whatever else people bring in in the end.
There's a list of commonly known examples of Hoklo loanwords in bahasa Indo, but I'd like to go beyond mi(e) and cincau, if possible.
One Indo word in my dictionary that caught my eye was "iseng", with I'm guessing the central /e/, not the front one. Here's the Orisinil definition: "do s.t. for fun, do s.t. without any serious purpose. iseng-iseng do s.t. just to amuse o.s. casually, leisurely."
Strikes me as being loaned from Hoklo i7-sng2. Since both i7 and sng2 can be used stand-alone with meanings different from i7-sng2, I'd be real surprised if the loan was actually the other way.
I haven't heard "iseng" used yet, although at this stage I can still hear things w/o really hearing them. I think I saw the word on a truck mudguard though.
Hoklo-Hokkien loanwords in Indo./Malay and v.v.
Re: Hoklo-Hokkien loanwords in Indo./Malay and v.v.
Hi Amhoanna
By central /e/, do you mean /ə/ (schwa)? "Iseng" indeed is pronounced as "isəng", exactly like i7-sng2 in Bagansiapiapi (since tone 2 in Bagan-ue is low-pitched). But for sure it is not from Bagan-ue, as "iseng" is often used in Pulau Jawa rather than Sumatra, and not found in Bahasa Melayu. May be it was a loanword from Hokkien (in Jawa) or mere coincidental, but I don't think it can be the other way around. Btw, is the sng2 耍 or 爽 or other TLJ?
"Jangan iseng!" would be "Don't play play!" in Singlish.
For loanwords from Chinese (usually Hokkien) in Bahasa Indonesia, can refer to:
http://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daftar_kat ... _Indonesia
(although some information there are not accurate).
By central /e/, do you mean /ə/ (schwa)? "Iseng" indeed is pronounced as "isəng", exactly like i7-sng2 in Bagansiapiapi (since tone 2 in Bagan-ue is low-pitched). But for sure it is not from Bagan-ue, as "iseng" is often used in Pulau Jawa rather than Sumatra, and not found in Bahasa Melayu. May be it was a loanword from Hokkien (in Jawa) or mere coincidental, but I don't think it can be the other way around. Btw, is the sng2 耍 or 爽 or other TLJ?
"Jangan iseng!" would be "Don't play play!" in Singlish.
For loanwords from Chinese (usually Hokkien) in Bahasa Indonesia, can refer to:
http://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daftar_kat ... _Indonesia
(although some information there are not accurate).
Re: Hoklo-Hokkien loanwords in Indo./Malay and v.v.
Yeah, I did mean the schwa.
Interesting where this word is and isn't found. So it's not found in Melayu, it's less used on Sumatra, and yet it made its way into Singlish.
I guess we'll have to add "iseng" to the Wiki sometime.
BTW I notice that Indonesians tend to try and trace every Hokkien loanword to Mandarin to the extent that it's possible... Would it have been even worse if Suharto hadn't shut down the Chinese schools?
爽 seems to work! 耍 here seems to be a Mandarism. But I could be wrong. Maybe the kanji itself is ideographic and not bound to any set of cognates.
Interesting where this word is and isn't found. So it's not found in Melayu, it's less used on Sumatra, and yet it made its way into Singlish.
I guess we'll have to add "iseng" to the Wiki sometime.
BTW I notice that Indonesians tend to try and trace every Hokkien loanword to Mandarin to the extent that it's possible... Would it have been even worse if Suharto hadn't shut down the Chinese schools?
爽 seems to work! 耍 here seems to be a Mandarism. But I could be wrong. Maybe the kanji itself is ideographic and not bound to any set of cognates.
Re: Hoklo-Hokkien loanwords in Indo./Malay and v.v.
Amhoanna, sorry for my bad sentence. I meant "Jangan iseng!" in Bahasa Indonesia = "Don't play play!" in Singlish.
Yes, and I think not only Indonesian Chinese. Most still think of Mandarin as the standard Chinese language while Hokkien and others as merely dialects. Even in Bagansiapiapi, I often heard people said that we should learn 國語 Kok4-gy2 (referring to Mandarin).BTW I notice that Indonesians tend to try and trace every Hokkien loanword to Mandarin to the extent that it's possible...
Re: Hoklo-Hokkien loanwords in Indo./Malay and v.v.
Another word: "diam", vs. Hoklo tiam7.
I'm guessing this is a loan from some kind(s) of Malay into Hoklo. It would be good to know if this word reconstructs in Proto-Banlamese or further back.
Or it could just be a coincidence, i.e. no linguistic connection.
I'm guessing this is a loan from some kind(s) of Malay into Hoklo. It would be good to know if this word reconstructs in Proto-Banlamese or further back.
Or it could just be a coincidence, i.e. no linguistic connection.
Right!Yes, and I think not only Indonesian Chinese.
Re: Hoklo-Hokkien loanwords in Indo./Malay and v.v.
There were some discussions in this forum about "diam" & tiam7. Since this word is also know in Taiwanese Hoklo, IMHO either it's a loan from Hokkien into Malay, or if the other way round, it should have been borrowed into Hokkien long time ago. And another meaning of "diam", e.g. "berdiam di" = stay at; "tempat kediaman" = residence; this is similar to Hokkien tiam3. As you said, may be Proto-Banlamese or coincidence. 
Re: Hoklo-Hokkien loanwords in Indo./Malay and v.v.
Wow! I didn't know "diam" had those other meanings in Malay. Seems like in Malay, it's all the same word? Whereas in Hoklo tiam7 and tiam3 are unrelated?
While we're at it, there's also di vs. ti7... On second thought, that's most likely just a coincidence since in Hoklo it probably reconstructs to ty7 (back unrounded, for people new to the forum). This might be in the old thread too. I'll have to read through it sometime.
While we're at it, there's also di vs. ti7... On second thought, that's most likely just a coincidence since in Hoklo it probably reconstructs to ty7 (back unrounded, for people new to the forum). This might be in the old thread too. I'll have to read through it sometime.
Re: Hoklo-Hokkien loanwords in Indo./Malay and v.v.
Yes, in Indonesian/Malay it's considered as one word. Not sure about their 字, personally I think that tiam7 and tiam3 are two different words.
You are right that "di" & ti7 are similar too. Other similar sound or construction: ibu & bu2 (mother), kaki & kha1 (foot/leg), mata kaki & kha1-bak8 (eye of foot -> ankle), kaki tangan & kha1-chiu2 (foot hand -> assistants), ketela pohon & chiu7-cy5 (tree "yam" -> cassava). Although probably they are just coincidence, nevertheless I find them interesting.
You are right that "di" & ti7 are similar too. Other similar sound or construction: ibu & bu2 (mother), kaki & kha1 (foot/leg), mata kaki & kha1-bak8 (eye of foot -> ankle), kaki tangan & kha1-chiu2 (foot hand -> assistants), ketela pohon & chiu7-cy5 (tree "yam" -> cassava). Although probably they are just coincidence, nevertheless I find them interesting.
Re: Hoklo-Hokkien loanwords in Indo./Malay and v.v.
Hi niuc,
Wow, lovely examples! I too would tend to think that they're a co-incidence though, particularly for "assistents" and "cassava".
Wow, lovely examples! I too would tend to think that they're a co-incidence though, particularly for "assistents" and "cassava".
Re: Hoklo-Hokkien loanwords in Indo./Malay and v.v.
Very interesting!
Some of the similarities are no doubt coincidence , but "mata kaki" and "kaki tangan" seem to me to be the kind of underlying similarities that define Sprachbunden (=speech areas). Reminds me of what the scholars say, that Proto-Austronesian was probably spoken on the east coast of Asia near the Tropic of Cancer, exactly where Hoklo formed and came to be.
Some of the similarities are no doubt coincidence , but "mata kaki" and "kaki tangan" seem to me to be the kind of underlying similarities that define Sprachbunden (=speech areas). Reminds me of what the scholars say, that Proto-Austronesian was probably spoken on the east coast of Asia near the Tropic of Cancer, exactly where Hoklo formed and came to be.