To Sandhi or not to Sandhi?

[Ah-bin]

I decided to start this on a separate thread so it wouldn't get lost.

不好意思,
我臨時把這篇文章拿走了,不想要給別人隨便利用,推廣他們自己的"拼音方案"
妳要看妳就可以寫PM个我.

[amhoanna]

Bravo. For a long time I was mystified by when to "cite" and when to "let it run". There were almost no learning materials that hit on this question. In fact most Hoklo speakers seemed to smirk and say U either knew it or U didn't, like it couldn't be learned. The Maryknoll books were one of the few exceptions. I'm guessing U probably used those too at some point.

Wá khoàⁿ chhe∙h (khoàⁿ sandhis)
Wá khoàⁿ i ê chhe∙h (khoàⁿ doesn't sandhi, because it is separated from chhe∙h by I ê)

In TW, in both of these sentences, only chhe∙h would take citation. Maybe this is part of what gives TW Hoklo its smooth, elided feel.

The first syllable in compound verb suffixes such as chhut lâi, jíp khì does not sandhi either, the second is in a neutral tone.

I think this might be in variation in TW. For some people, both syllables would take a neutral tone. For others, it would be as U said -- in which case the verb itself would "run" (or "sandhi"). I'm going off impressions here, though, as well as the inconsistent marking in TWese stories.

If the khah was originally kha then it would sandhi by lowering its pitch to khā, but in Khah-tōa the first syllable is higher in pitch than the second, making kháh-tōa.

Supported in TW Hoklo. The tone contours only fit analysis as khah-toā or khá-toā, but at the same time the khah is quick and arguably checked, even when it runs. So, possibly an exception to the rule that glottal stops get dropped in running position.

In TW, khah never occurs in citation position. Isn't this true in Penang too?

Mài-liáu – don’t want sugar, sandhis because liáu is the object of the verb mài “not to want”

Wow, does liáu mean SUGAR?

In most compound words any syllable followed by a second syllable will sandhi

Good rule. There's only a handful of true exceptions in Taiwan. The only one I can think of right off the top of my head is 夭寿 iausiu -- both syllables take citation.

But what happens to verbs directly in front of pronouns?

In TW, they always run, right in front of pronouns.

Another good rule, for TW at least: almost anything takes citation if followed directly by ê, when ê isn't being used as a classifier. The exception is pronouns.

[SimL]

Hi Ah-bin,

Just a short note, as I'm very busy at the moment. Indeed, you seem to have captured the essentials of Penang Hokkien tone sandhi VERY well!

I'd have to go into each individual case and think about it very solidly, but on initial reading, I didn't see anything incorrect at all.

[Ah-bin]

Ah yes, I think only the singular pronouns wá and lú sandhi before ê, and i stays the same, the lâng in wá-lâng etc. does not sandhi.

Wow, does liáu mean SUGAR?

It's 料 meaning "ingredients" but in this case it means sugar.

[SimL]

All correct.

In fact, "wa" and "lu" sandhi before the plural marker "lang" as well, and "i" does not, so it's the same pattern.

[AndrewAndrew]

Ah yes, I think only the singular pronouns wá and lú sandhi before ê, and i stays the same, the lâng in wá-lâng etc. does not sandhi.

Wow, does liáu mean SUGAR?

It's 料 meaning "ingredients" but in this case it means sugar.

It's liau with a low tone (3/7), not liáu. The meaning changes depending on what the item is - if it's noodles, liau means fish/meat/prawns. In drinks for some reason it's sugar.

[Ah-bin]

ah...of course it is.....thank you.

I think I have that wrong in the dictionary too.....yes I did, and now I'm not in the least surprised that I got sugar in my tea, seeing as I wasn't pronouncing it correctly to start with!

I think I have māng as màng incorrectly in there too.

[SimL]

I think I have māng as màng incorrectly in there too.

As an abbreviated form of "m7-thang1" you could write it "mang1", even though it never occurs in this abbreviated form without a verb following.

[AndrewAndrew]

Ah-bin - I did notice a few tone errors in the draft you sent me, but decided it wasn't anything that couldn't be corrected at the end at proofreading stage.

[Yeleixingfeng]

Strange, mang1 is in the same tone as 天 right? In Penang we often say it in the same tone as 跳 - standing tone. I write it as 妄, though obviously it is not correct. The 讀冊音 of 妄 is bong, not sure how it corresponds to 白話.

By the way, I haven't heard of anyone saying m-thang. I will ask around.