Suggestion

[Aurelio]

Hi, everybody!

Thanks for answering the "headcount" question. Looks like there are some more people out there who want to keep this forum going. Thinking about what I'd really like to see, I'll venture to make a suggestion that's been on my mind for a while: How about some short texts in Hokkien, preferentially with characters and romanization?

Whoever's followed Hong's links will have found that there is a lot of material out there, however, most of it either in characters or exclusively in romanization. Maybe we could have a little 'bilingual' collection here for those who want to improve their Hokkien and also to prove that it is a living written language? It's also a great reason to fight about which characters to use ...

I'd go forward with that, however, I'm not a native speaker. But maybe Niuc could contribute one of his poems ? Let me know what you think ...

Best regards,
Aurelio

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[Andrew Yong]

I definitely agree. The problem with the hanzi and romanised stuff is that it is always difficult to figure out what it is being said if you are unfamiliar with the unusual characters or the dialect.

[Niuc]

Aurelio, 汝好

汝對福建閩南語的關心真正予我受感動. 我嘛真同意汝的意見. 其實我嘛有想慾將一寡啊實用的會話寫佇我的網頁, 但是到此[今]因為種種的原因(->其實是藉題啦)擱猶未做的. 當今咱緊來惦[此裡]創.

Aurelio, ly2 ho2

ly2 tui3 hok4 kian3 ban5 lam5 gy2 e5 kuan1 sim1 cin1 cia*3 ho`7 gua2 siu7 kam2 tong7. gua2 ma7 cin1 tang5 i3 ly2 e5 i3 kian3. ki5 sit8 gua2 ma7 u7 siu*7 ber4 ciong7 cit8 kuai2 a0 sit8 ing7 e5 hue7 ue7sia2 ti7 gua2 e5 bang7 ia8, tan7 si7 kau3 cit4 mai(4?) in1 ui7 ciong2 ciong2 e5 guan5 in1 (-> ki5 sit8 si7 cia4 tue5 la0) ko4 a2 ber7 cue3 e0. tong1 kim1 lan2 kin2 lai5 tiam3 ciai5 chong3.

Hi Aurelio

I am really touched by your attention & concern for Hokkien language. I also definitely agree with your suggestion. Actually I have been thinking of putting some practical Hokkien conversation on my homepage but have not done so due to many reasons (or to be more precise-> excuses ). Now let's do it here!

Andrew 講的的確是現實的大問題. 因為猶未有公用的標準, 逐人寫的字無定着相同, 講法也有可能無同, 續無快溝通. [不過]總是着安呢開始, 希望免等傷久就有公用的標準啦.

Andrew kong2 e0 tik4 khak4 si7 hian7 sit8 e5 tua7 bun7 tue5. in1 ui3 a2 ber7 u7 kong1 ing7 e5 phiau1 cun2, tak8 lang5 sia2 e5 di7 bo5 tia*7 tio8 sio1 sang5, kong2 huat8 a7 u7 kho2 ling5 bo5 sang5, sua3 bo5 kue7 kau1 thong1. m7 ku2 cong2 si7 tio8 an1 ni1 khai1 si2, hi1 bang7 bian2 tan2 siu*1 ku2 ciu7 u7 kong1 ing7 e5 phiau1 cun2 la0.

What Andrew said is indeed a real and big problem. As there is no common standard, characters used in writing may vary from one to another person. Also their pronunciations may not be identical. Hence the communication becomes not easy. Nonetheless we should start even with this condition and be hopeful that a common standard can be developed soon (not to wait too long).

我寫的詩並無完全照傳統的規律, 希望恁[勿通]棄嫌

gua2 sia2 e5 si1 ping7 bo5 uan5 cuan5 ciau3 thuan5 thong2 e5 kui1 lut8, hi1 bang7 lin2 mang1 khi3 hiam5

My poems don't follow traditional rules strictly, yet hopefully you guys won't shun them


黃昏群鳥

黃昏觀賞西日沉;
群鳥高飛越山林;
隨季轉遷遊千里;
殷勤活潑即以欣.

hong5 hun1 khun5 ciau2

hong5 hun1 kuan1 siong2 se1 dit8 tim5;
khun5 ciau2 ko1 hui1 uat8 san1 lim5;
sui5 kui3 cuan2 chian1 iu5 chian1 li2;
un1 khun5 ua8 phuat4 cip8 i2 him1.


Twilight Birds Flock

observe the west sunset at twilight;
birds flock flying high across mountain woods;
migrate by seasons travelling thousands of miles;
eager and vigorous, thus be admired.

Would really appreciate if any friend here can help me to translate the poem into better English. Thanks a lot!

Cheers
Niuc

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[Aurelio]

Niuc, 汝好

真感謝汝的回答合汝寫的詩. What a wonderful way to start! 希望別人也會參加. 安尼做, 阮就會使相合學習. 用中國字, 白話字合英文 一定 第一好, 但是只用白話字合英文也真好. 我講真無好, 對不起. 有一個語法的問題: 我麼的'麼'是甚物?

Cin1 kam1-sia7 lu2 e5 he7-tap kap4 lu2 sia2 e5 si1. What a wonderful way to start! Hi7-bong7 pat4-lang5 ia7 e7 cam7-ka1. An1-ni*1 cue3, gun2 ciu3 e3-sai2 sa*7-kap4 hak4-sip8. Ieng7 tiong7-kok8-zi7, peh4-ue3-zi7 kap4 ieng7-bun5 it8-tieng7 te3-it4 hou2, tan3-si7 ci2 ieng7 peh4-ue3-zi7 kap4 ieng7-bun5 ia7 cin1 hou2. Gua2 kong2 cin1 bo5 hou2, tui2-put1-cu7. U7 cit4-e5 gu3-huat4 e5 bun2-tue5: 'Gua2-ma7' e5 'ma7' si7 sia*1-mih*8?

Dear Niuc, Many thanks for your immediate reply and for your poem. What a wonderful way to start! I hope that others will join in. This way, we can all learn from one another. To use Hanzi, romanization and English is of course the best, but just romanization + English is fine, too. I speak very poorly, excuse me. A technical question: What is the 'ma7' in 'gua-ma' (in your post)?

Regards,
Aurelio

[Casey]

Bravo! This is a very good start. Of course, one would expect that there will be "problems" as what Andrew pointed out and "fights" (I would say discussions) regarding which words are more appropriate to be used as anticipated by Aurelio. Nevertheless, Niuc is correct in saying that "we should start even with this condition and be hopeful that a common standard can be developed".

I think before it gets more complicated, one very important question is "which form of the tone mark should we adopt, original or sandhi? or both?" As we can see clearly that Niuc is using the original form and Aurelio is using a mixture of both. Of course we can always indicate both for each word by using the oblique (-/-) sign to separate them after each word except that it will be more inconvenient in writing.


Niuc

When I read your poem, I found that we have different pronunciation in a few places:

"群鸟": kun5 niau2 (文读)
"日": jit8 (or lit8)
"活泼": huat8 phuat4
"即": cik4 ("Putong Hua Minnan Fangyan Cidian" indicated it as cik4 (文) or cit4 (白))

As I told you before, Niuc, I admire very much your Chinese proficiency. Keep it up and more poems, please!

[Henning]

Dear Aurelio, thanks for your suggestion. I have read all postings with great interest. If possible, I would like to read a (native speaker's) romanized transcription of a Hokkien text with both citation tones and sandhi tones. I have the impression that whether or not a syllable changes tone or keeps the citation tone is in some intances still subject to regional (and may be generational) differences. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Best,
Henning

[Andrew Yong]

歹細, 我個福建話共中文無共汝人安呢好.

phai*2-se7, goa2=e5-hok4-kien3-oa7 bo5-ka7 lu2 lang5 an2-ne1 ho2.

Casey: 我想講若是我人恬恬用hyphen, 嘛不使寫逐個字個sandhi form. 但是我人檳城人可能有時寫不對 3 共 7.

goa2 siO*7-kong2 na7-si7 goa2 lang tiam7-tiam7 iong7 hyphen, ma7 m7-sai2 xia2 tak8-e5-ji7=e5-sandhi form. tan7-si7 goa2 lang5 peng1-sia*5-lang5 kho2-ling5 u7 si5 sia2-m7-tioh8 "3" ka1 "7"

Casey: I think if we always use hyphens, there shouldn't be a need to write every character's sandhi form. But for us Penangites there may be some errors with the 3s and 7s.

[Aurelio]

Hi Casey:

I was asking myself the same question while writing. At first, I had everything in the isolation tone, because that's best for dictionary look-up. On the other hand, I like to use hyphens (more readable), so I changed all the tones into combination tones where I thought it would fit. But that gets you into the juncture business (where to put pauses) and as an angmo I don't feel confident about my choices there at all. So I changed everthing back with the exception of the hyphenated compounds themselves (and then pressed 'send' and went to sleep)

Comparing my experiment in mixed tones and the 'isolation-tone only' in Andrews post, I like the second style much better. With most of the words, the combination tone comes automatically, anyway, when reading. So, I'd suggest to always use the isolation tones, even in compounds. Plus: This makes it much easier to use a dictionary or to compare to another fangyan. What do you all think?

Regards,
Aurelio

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[Niuc]

Aurelio 汝好

汝的福建話合漢字算成[勿會]歹咧, 較贏成多福建人了. 汝是按怎學的? 敢會使給阮講? 汝學的是[不是]漳州腔?

ly2` e5 hok4 kian3 ue7` ka4 han3 ji7` sng3 cia*5 bue7 bai2` le2`, kha4 ia*5 cia*5 cue3 hok4 kian3 lang5` a1`. ly2` si7 an3 cua*2 o8` e0? kam2 e7 sai2 ka7 gun2 kong2`? ly2` o8` e0 si7 mi7 ciang1 ciu1 khiu*1`?

Your Hokkien and Hanzi are not bad at all, better than many Hokkien people. How do you learn it/them? Could you share the experience with us? Do you learn the Ciangciu accent?

嘛 ma7 = 也 = also
阮 gun2/guan2 = we (exclusive)
咱 lan2 = we (inclusive)


Casey 汝好

Thanks a lot for your compliment as it really encourages me, but actually I am still learning Chinese (Mandarin & also Hokkien) and still far from being proficient. Usually Hokkien poems are recited in literary pronunciation. Actually I - as an amateur - would like to write poems in daily speech (colloquial + literary) yet it’s not as easy. So I just recite them by “feeling”. May be it’s not a good idea hahaha

I often have to check literary pronunciation in dictionary or website (http://home.kimo.com.tw/profliim/HARNJI-YM/Big5-all.htm an informative site with unusual romanization). Thanks for the correct pronunciation of 即 cik4. For 日, our lit8 actually sounds like dit8 (‘d’ as in English, not Mandarin Pinyin), yet for convenience I will spell it as ‘j’.

I agree that we should put indicator to show which words’ tones should be pronounced in sandhi form. Because sandhi form of some tones differ from accent to accent, it’s better that we write the original tones. If we want to write the sandhi form, may be we can write with _ such as hok8_kian3. As in a sentence usually there are more words that shift their tones than those who retain theirs, I think it’ll be more efficient to put indicators on those retaining (I try to put ` after the tone retained).


彩林季

溪流澈漪彩林寂
朝旭穿葉禽奏隨
陣馨涼風索花隰
遠觀飛雁慶季歸


cai2 lim5 kui3`

khue1 liu5` thiat4 i1` cai2 lim5` cip8`
tiau1 hiok4` chua*1 hio8` khim5` cau3 sui5`
cun7 hing1 liang5 hong1` so2 hue1 sip4`
hng7 kuan1 hui1 gan7` khing3 kui3 kui1`.


season (of) colourful forest

stream’s flow is clear & rippling (while) the colourful forest is silent
birds sing orchestra as the morning sun shines through leaves
gust of fragrant & cool wind leads (me) to flowery marsh
(i) see from afar wild geese flying back to celebrate the season

Hi all, please help to polish the translation above. Thanks a lot!

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[Aurelio]

大家好!

Niuc: 岂敢, 我講無好. 我婦人人講福建話, 有family-reunion, 大家講本地話, 所以我在[口例]學福建話. 我用一本課本'Spoken Amoy Hokkien', 是 真[勿會] 歹. 即本課本也有真多錄音帶, 但是無用中國字. 寫漢字, 我用詞典(廈門方言詞典) - 真食力! 昨日, 我受了一張 Maryknoll 的 Fathers 寫的批: 我買的"福-英, 英-福"的詞典快來. 我真excited (還未"英-福"詞典, 所以我用真多英文詞.

請問: 汝第一的詩最後的詞"以欣", 英文怎樣講? 我想彼個詞真重要, 我伓知"admire"是正的意思.

Niuc: Khi2-kam2, gua2 kong2 bo5 ho2. Gua2 e hu7-zin5-lang5 kong2 hok4-kian3-ue7, u7 family-reunion, tai7-ke1 kong2 pun2-tue7-ue7, so2-i2' gua2 ti7 teh8 ouh4 hok4-kian3-ue7. Gua2 ieng7 cit8 pun2 khou3-pun2 "Spoken Amoy Hokkien", si7 cin1 bue7 phai*2. cit4 pun2 khou3-pun2 ia7 u7 cin1 cue7 lok-im1-tua3, tan7-si7 bo2 ieng7 tiong1-kok4-ji7. Sia2 han3-ji7' gua2 ieng7 su2-tien2 (Xiamen Fangyan Cidian) - cin1 ciah8-lat8! ca5-jit8, gua2 siu1-la cit8-tiu*1 Maryknoll e Fathers sia2 e phue1: gua2 bue2 e 'hok - ieng, ieng - hok' e su2-tien2 kuai3 lai5 a!. Gua2 cin1 excited (ao2 be7 'ying-hok' su2-tien2, so2-i2 gua2 ieng7 cin1 cue7 ieng1-bun5 su2).

Chia*2-mng7: lu2 te7-it4 e si1', cue3-ao7 e su2 "i2 him1" ieng1-bun5 an3-cua*2 kong2? gua2 siu*7 hit4-e su2 cin1 tiong7-iao3, gua2 m7 cai1 "admire" si7 cia*3 e i3-su3 ...

Niuc: Not at all, I speak very poorly. My wife speaks Hokkien, at every family reunion everybody'd speak Hokkien, so therefore I'm trying to learn. I use a course book called "Spoken Amoy Hokkien", it's really not bad at all. This course comes with a lot of language tapes toｏ, but it does not use Ｃｈｉｎｅｓｅ characters. To write characters, I use a dictionary (Xiamen Fangyan Cidian) - that's pretty tedious! Yesterday, I received a letter from the Maryknoll Fathers: My Hokkien-English, English-Hokkien dictionary will arrive soon. I'm very excited (so far, I do not have an "English-Hokkien" dictionary, therefore I use a lot of English words).
Question: In your first poem, how does one translate the last word, "i2 him1" into English? I feel that this word word is very important, but I don't know whether "admire" really catches its true meaning.

Thanks to those who have followed my stammering ｕｐ　ｔｏ　ｔｈｉｓ　ｐｏｉｎｔ

Regards,
Aurelio